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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/11/2008 10:28:35 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 97
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I believe that GD is correct with regard to whether or not the Samaritans spoke with tongues. The terms "have the Spirit" and "receive the gift of the Spirit" are virtually synonymous terms that indicate an outward manifestation.
Can you show this scripturally?
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/11/2008 10:35:52 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 97
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
I do not agree however. The text says they received the Holy Ghost, not tongues, and it does not say they received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized, but after, and it wasnt immediately after they were baptized. Yes the text says they received the Holy Ghost. But the text does not say they didn't receive the gift of tongues. In fact in Acts 19:6 it says, "they began speaking in tongues." In order for that to happen they had to have received the gift of tongues, even though it doesn't specifically say so.
quote:
From what I understand you are expressing as to what you believe, you are saying that you believe the Holy Ghost is given at baptism, but here in acts 8 and acts 19, it isnt given at, it is given after, that is the point I am trying to make. I understand the point you are trying to make. I just happen to disagree. I think its entirely possible that they received the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit when they were baptized, then received the Holy Spirit via the gift of tongues later. That's why I think when it says they received the Holy Spirit, it is specifically talking about the gift of tongues.
quote:
The text does not say they were saved when they were baptized, and I dont understand how this can be, since they ddint receive the Spirit of God when they were baptized. The text does not say they didn't receive the Spirit of God when they were baptized. And it doesn't say they were saved when they were baptized because every Christian in New Testament times would have understand that one is saved when they are baptized.
quote:
And the gift of the Holy Ghost is NOT commonly referred as the gift of tongues, and it is never referred to in that way in Acts, in fact, acts 8 does not mention tongues. You are right. The gift of the Holy Ghost is NOT commonly referred to as the gift of tongues. That's not what I said at all. And while you are correct that Acts 8 does not mention tongues, what do you suppose Simon saw that convinced him that they had received a gift of the Holy Spirit?
Where does the word say they received anything at all at baptism? Why should we assume they did when it appears they didn't? It doesn't, but it does say what they received after they were baptized, it says they received the Holy Ghost, not a gift. It is evident they did receive a gift, but they holy ghost is an entirely different gift than a gift OF the Spirit. Why would every new christian understood they were saved when they were baptized, I do not believe this at all, it isn't taught or preached in acts. For future reference, acts 2:38 does not say that, because we also se instances of people receiving the holy ghost BEFORE they were baptized, and not always after, and also, acts 2:38 does not say they shall receive it AT baptism, if anything, it would indicate it is an event that happens after baptism at the most, just as in seen in acts 8 and acts 19. Also, nowhere is there teaching of an indwelling presence of the spirit, especially at baptism. That is something that must be inferred, and its difficult to make a doctrine of this type from inference alone.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/11/2008 10:36:58 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 969
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Again I have to say that I wasn't taught anything about baptism as a child. I have been willing to search the scriptures with a mind open to the purposes of Him Who saved me. Those who think they have pointed out inconsistencies in my beliefs about baptism have their own minds made up about what baptism means to them. Bravo!!!! I could say exactly the same thing and yet you and I have come to different conclusions. I think the same thing you do about those who purportedly point out inconsistencies in my beliefs. In fact I could have written the above quote myself, it so accurately portrays my own experiences.
quote:
I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ not the waters of baptism. Amen, sister!!! So am I!
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/12/2008 7:38:23 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I believe that GD is correct with regard to whether or not the Samaritans spoke with tongues. The terms "have the Spirit" and "receive the gift of the Spirit" are virtually synonymous terms that indicate an outward manifestation.
Can you show this scripturally?
Probably not in this thread. This thread is, after all, devoted to the subject of baptism. Such material requires a violation of CW's TOS. Besides, it's not any material I have organized right now. I'd have to put something together. I suppose we could discuss it in another thread and I could put together what I remember. And I am not sure it would convince you. My view does not stem from being a Charismatic because I am not a Charismatic.
Where I learned it was from a book written by John Stott, Baptism and Fulness, not at all a Charismatic.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/12/2008 7:42:10 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
It doesn't, but it does say what they received after they were baptized, it says they received the Holy Ghost, not a gift. It is evident they did receive a gift, but they holy ghost is an entirely different gift than a gift OF the Spirit...
Ab_khomar,
The gift of the HS is---the HS Himself, in many contexts. This is to be distinguished from the "gifts." I think we need another thread. The moderators would put a kibosh on this thread if we were to divert it to a tangent.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/13/2008 10:47:12 PM
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draexo
Posts: 774
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
I think we can safely say if you refuse to be baptized you are publicly rejecting Christ.
Why? You don't think a person who refuses baptism can profess Christ?
It is simple obedience.
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/14/2008 6:49:37 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
I think we can safely say if you refuse to be baptized you are publicly rejecting Christ.
Why? You don't think a person who refuses baptism can profess Christ?
It is simple obedience.
Then I assume that you believe that salvation comes, in part, through baptism.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/14/2008 10:13:54 PM
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draexo
Posts: 774
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
I think we can safely say if you refuse to be baptized you are publicly rejecting Christ.
Why? You don't think a person who refuses baptism can profess Christ?
It is simple obedience.
Then I assume that you believe that salvation comes, in part, through baptism.
I can already see where this is going. (I think).
Can you have salvation without baptism? Probably. Ok, let me take this to a personal level.
I was baptized 5 years ago at 34 years old. I did not see a "need" to be baptized. There was a lot of pressure to do it - but then I actually stopped listening to the pastor and started reading the Bible.
It seems to be the thing to do out of love and obedience - Paul did it, as did others, once they were saved. I believe also that converts to Judaism did it as well. It is really a public profession of faith.
Jesus says in Mark 15:
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
then we have Matthew 28:
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Jesus's words, not mine - believe and be baptized.
In Acts 2 and in Acts 8 there were baptisms. There are more in Acts. In Acts 9 Paul is baptized. He converts and is baptized. It is clearly an expression of one's faith.
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/15/2008 6:01:00 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
I can already see where this is going. (I think).
Can you have salvation without baptism? Probably. Ok, let me take this to a personal level.
Taking it to a personal level. I was saved for 3 years before I was baptized.
Look. I will grant that it is an expression of one's faith. However, that is a far cry from saying that "if you refuse to be baptized you are publicly rejecting Christ."
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/15/2008 7:41:01 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 383
Joined: 3/22/2008
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There is nothing externally required of one in order to receive salvation. Salvation is the receiving of life…eternal life, and this life is in Jesus Christ.
Jesus offers you eternal life through Himself and He does so freely. His eternal life is a gift, a free gift.
As with any gift, there is nothing required of the one receiving the gift, except to accept it. If there were something the recipient needed to do to earn it…it would no longer be a gift, and it would certainly no longer be free.
Jesus Christ is Gods free gift to the world and in Him is eternal life; accept Him, and in Him you HAVE forgiveness of sins and ETERNAL LIFE.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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