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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 10:19:17 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
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...phosy hands stars back to qtman...
Exactly. It all goes back to listening to God and not limiting how He will work. God doesn't work in one and only one way and that's it.
I'll share a story I heard once that illustrates this point.
A man is at him home when floodwaters surround his house. As the waters begin to rise, he cries out to God, "Lord save me!". A few minutes later, a small boat floats by and the people in the boat yell out to him to get in and they will row him to dry land. He refuses and explains that God will save him.
Meanwhile, the floodwaters rise deeper and again the man cries out to God "Save me!". Moments later, a rescue boat comes by and the rescuers tell the man to get in the boat to be saved from the rising waters. The man refuses and again explains that God will save him.
The waters continue to rise and soon he must climb onto his roof. Once more, he cries out "God, save me!". A short while later a helicopter approaches. The rescuers tell the man to climb aboard or he will drown. He refuses once again trusting that God will save him.
Soon the water rise over his head and he drowns. As he approaches the Lord's throne in heaven, he asks God "Why didn't you save me?" God responds, "I tried. First I sent a small boat but you wouldn't get in. Then I sent a rescue boat but you didn't get it. Finally, I sent a helicopter, but you still wouldn't get in."
This isn't an issue of trust or obedience. It's an issue of listening to God's voice and not getting stuck in thinking He will only work one way.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 12:39:38 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Kris & QT - Have I mentioned how glad I am that you're around on these forums?
BT
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 1:02:51 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: granolagirl
I wonder how you all feel about birth control. I'm not Catholic (I know mostly in general Catholics are against it) but I feel that it is wrong. I mean aren't you saying that this is a part of your life that you want to control yourself and not trust God with? I'm not trying to start a fight here. I just want to hear what people think..especially those who use BC.
This decision has to be made between each couple and it is quite personal. While scripture is clear that we are not to murder (ruling out all BC that could murder a baby), scripture is not clear on other methods of birth control. You asked for different perspectives--here are two:
I know someone who had four babies, all before 22 weeks. They all died upon birth. Very heartbreaking. Her body cannot carry babies, and because of this, they chose to prevent any future pregnancies.
I know someone who has a blood disorder that makes her body develop antibodies to her babies, causing still-births. Nothing can be done to stop this. After having two children and her antibodies getting higher with each pregnancy, they decided to prevent further pregnancies.
In both of these cases the parents are preventing the deaths of their own (possible) children by using BC.
This is a topic that should be treated with great sensitivity and A LOT of grace.
< Message edited by crankius -- 4/11/2008 1:09:34 AM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 6:06:06 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2944
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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IN the meantime, Mama of Many, I do like your avatar. Your family looks so happy together. I hope that you get infront of the lens in one of these pics, too. I am sure that with such a loving family it can be hard to imagine how anyone could not want such a group of kiddos.
There are tech developed countries that WISH their population was having more children. In all things, there is a balance. I so agree that it is a personal issue between a couple and God.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 8:37:33 AM
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stephengoswami
Posts: 31
Joined: 12/5/2007
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Why sex slave humanity must use contraceptives and abortion, the lesser evils.
In Christian and other higher religions, paradises have no sexual relations. Procreation there is by union of pure spiritual love. As a couple here generates progeny by carnal union, so also in Heaven a couple united in pure spiritual love play the main part in creating spiritual progeny. But, Heaven fallen us have forfeited spiritual love to create such progeny. So, fallen in animal kingdom we create by compulsive carnal emotions which we had perverted due to our fallen nature. So knowing that it is beneath our dignity we always try to hide it in shame, as an ill-gotten thing. It is sign by which we can know that sex-shame affected humanity has soul; but animals without sex-shame have no soul.
Now slave of the compulsive sex, we have to use contraceptive and abortions to prevent generating uncared-for weak children. But that only is palliative.
But Christ came to save us from the slavery of destructive passions by the power of divine love on the cross. Those, who unite with him closely, again get the power to create spiritual Heavenly progeny even here. So church is the spouse of Christ. They never need sex and birth control. They rise over sex. Even here such spouses abandon sex, to create plenty of spiritual children by their spiritual union. i have been blessed to know some of them
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 8:56:46 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3719
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
I'm with Maggie and Sandy...we don't see where the commandment to be fruitful has been recinded...nor that we have to be able to *know* we can say provide extravagances for all our children *before* we have them. We trust that He will provide for all our needs no matter how small, daily. We allow the Lord control over our fertility and have been blessed, thus far, with two fantastic girlies. 
I'm sure this thread will end up just like all the other QF/non-QF ones...so if you want you can PM me as well granolagirl about your decision/conviction.
In your opinion, what is an extravagance that birth control users that you know are unwilling to go without?
I would like to know this as well. It's not like there are tons of two children families driving BMW's and going to Europe.
Besides, does using medication to help you conceive also fall under "allowing the Lord to control your fertility"? Because it kinda seems like if you're in for the penny, you should be in for the pound.
I think God can lead some Christians to be QF, and I don't judge those who are. But not all Christians are called this way. God also calls some to be Pastors and some to be doctors, some to be engineers, etc.
If you want to have 15 kids and can provide the barest basics for them (food, clothing, shelter and medical care), then I really don't care. Just don't tell me I'm against God's calling in my life for not doing what you're doing.
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 9:16:17 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7761
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
I'm with Maggie and Sandy...we don't see where the commandment to be fruitful has been recinded...nor that we have to be able to *know* we can say provide extravagances for all our children *before* we have them. We trust that He will provide for all our needs no matter how small, daily. We allow the Lord control over our fertility and have been blessed, thus far, with two fantastic girlies.
I'm sure this thread will end up just like all the other QF/non-QF ones...so if you want you can PM me as well granolagirl about your decision/conviction.
In your opinion, what is an extravagance that birth control users that you know are unwilling to go without?
I would like to know this as well. It's not like there are tons of two children families driving BMW's and going to Europe.
Besides, does using medication to help you conceive also fall under "allowing the Lord to control your fertility"? Because it kinda seems like if you're in for the penny, you should be in for the pound.
I think God can lead some Christians to be QF, and I don't judge those who are. But not all Christians are called this way. God also calls some to be Pastors and some to be doctors, some to be engineers, etc.
If you want to have 15 kids and can provide the barest basics for them (food, clothing, shelter and medical care), then I really don't care. Just don't tell me I'm against God's calling in my life for not doing what you're doing.
SOCCOL!!!!
So true! Even though I'm single I have no desire to have any more children and when people ask me I always say I'm not going to unless God has other plans for me. So many people say, "Oh you'll meet that right guy, he'll want to have children with you...you'll change your mind." *sigh* I pray that the man I marry will be content with the children I have or look to other means other than me being pregnant. 
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 9:51:35 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3719
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Well, then maybe what we should say is that married couples should prayerfully consider what God wills for them, and if God wants them to be QF, then He will tell them that.
In my opinion, I don't think every couple will get that call, however.
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 9:58:02 AM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Well, then maybe what we should say is that married couples should prayerfully consider what God wills for them, and if God wants them to be QF, then He will tell them that.
In my opinion, I don't think every couple will get that call, however.
Exactly!
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 10:02:01 AM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stephengoswami
Why sex slave humanity must use contraceptives and abortion, the lesser evils.
In Christian and other higher religions, paradises have no sexual relations. Procreation there is by union of pure spiritual love. As a couple here generates progeny by carnal union, so also in Heaven a couple united in pure spiritual love play the main part in creating spiritual progeny. But, Heaven fallen us have forfeited spiritual love to create such progeny. So, fallen in animal kingdom we create by compulsive carnal emotions which we had perverted due to our fallen nature. So knowing that it is beneath our dignity we always try to hide it in shame, as an ill-gotten thing. It is sign by which we can know that sex-shame affected humanity has soul; but animals without sex-shame have no soul.
Now slave of the compulsive sex, we have to use contraceptive and abortions to prevent generating uncared-for weak children. But that only is palliative.
But Christ came to save us from the slavery of destructive passions by the power of divine love on the cross. Those, who unite with him closely, again get the power to create spiritual Heavenly progeny even here. So church is the spouse of Christ. They never need sex and birth control. They rise over sex. Even here such spouses abandon sex, to create plenty of spiritual children by their spiritual union. i have been blessed to know some of them
For the record, I am single, never married and a virgin, so if you think I'm some kind of sex slave, you are very mistaken.
As far as sex: Sex is only a sin when it is between folks who shouldn't be doing it (outside the husband and wife bond). You need to read the NT if you disagree with that. Paul actually TELLS married folks to ONLY remain abstinant FOR A TIME and with MUTUAL consent. He also tells single folks that it's better to be single, but if you can't control yourself (sexually) GET MARRIED. Sex is a beautiful thing God created to be shared between a husband and wife. If it is ONLY intended for procreation, apparently God screwed up when he created certain parts of the female anatomy that have zero purpose other than enjoyment.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 10:25:27 AM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MN
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There are several scripture references that come into play when discussing birth control. The first is Genesis 1:28a - "God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.'" Opponents of birth control view that verse as a mandate. In other words, if you don't become fruitful and multiply, you are breaking a direct command from God. There are several very strong arguments against that interpretation, not the least of which is the pure textual analysis which shows this is a blessing, not a command.
Another scripture passage that many use to oppose birth control is the infamous "Onan incident". You will recall that Onan was instructed, (and apparently agreed), to fulfill his Levirite obligation to his deceased brother by getting his sister-in-law pregnant. Instead, Onan, being jelous that the child would not be his own, withdrew and "spilled his semen" on the ground. God promptly struck him dead. BC opponents try to focus on the birth control act, the coitus interruptus, as the reason why he was killed. This argument is also easily defeated.
A good article exploring both the textual and contextual aspects of birth control (and abortion) in the bible is located on this page: http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/02-Exodus/Text/Articles/Cerling-Abortion-CSR.htm.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 4/11/2008 11:33:34 AM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 11:06:49 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: This is a topic that should be treated with great sensitivity and A LOT of grace.
Amen to that. It's an issue that's loaded with emotional land mines and far to easy to step on one, which I'm sure I've done.
BT
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 11:16:51 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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Gengwall-
I couldn't open that link. Anxious to have a peek.
BT
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 11:28:45 AM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Gengwall-
I couldn't open that link. Anxious to have a peek.
BT
Hmmm. neither could I, but when I open it from my favorites, it works fine. Let me try again. Maybe I didn't do it right in the post.
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/02-Exodus/Text/Articles/Cerling-Abortion-CSR.htm
(Edit: yes, I didn't do the link right at first. Now it should work)
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 11:32:39 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 9948
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Kris & QT - Have I mentioned how glad I am that you're around on these forums?
BT
Thanks for the kind words GroupW. I will form time to time post is some of these threads however, I try not to get caught up in them. I find most people are either very strongly in favor or equally opposed to things discussed in these threads. The sad truth is in most case there is no right or wrong per se'.
_____________________________
A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 12:04:54 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7761
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
There are several scripture references that come into play when discussing birth control. The first is Genesis 1:28a - "God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.'" Opponents of birth control view that verse as a mandate. In other words, if you don't become fruitful and multiply, you are breaking a direct command from God. There are several very strong arguments against that interpretation, not the least of which is the pure textual analysis which shows this is a blessing, not a command.
You know...I just had a weird thought about this. Adam and Eve were the first people on the earth. Wouldn't it seem...natural that God would tell them to 'be fruitful and increase in number'? Apparently He wanted more than just two people on the earth.
Hmmmm....Just a thought. *shrug*
_____________________________
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 12:14:06 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessGiselle
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
There are several scripture references that come into play when discussing birth control. The first is Genesis 1:28a - "God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.'" Opponents of birth control view that verse as a mandate. In other words, if you don't become fruitful and multiply, you are breaking a direct command from God. There are several very strong arguments against that interpretation, not the least of which is the pure textual analysis which shows this is a blessing, not a command.
You know...I just had a weird thought about this. Adam and Eve were the first people on the earth. Wouldn't it seem...natural that God would tell them to 'be fruitful and increase in number'? Apparently He wanted more than just two people on the earth.
Hmmmm....Just a thought. *shrug*
Of course, but not everyone who followed God was fruitful and even some of them did not "multiply" in the sense that they produced more children than procreating adults in the family.
Below is an analysis I did of Genesis 1:28 on another forum. The argument is that God's blessing applies to humanity in general, but not necessarily to every individual couple. Enjoy:
quote:
I, too, think that the command in Genesis 1:28 (if it even is a command which is grammatically debateable) applies to the human race in general, and not to each specific marriage. I see several very troubling paradoxes if it indeed applies to the individual marriages and I would be interested in how the other side would solve these.
The "set up to fail" paradox. If "be fruitful and multiply" is a command for every marriage, and if God is the opener and closer of wombs, then God purposely sets up some marriages to fail His command by closing the wombs of the women. Indeed, anyone who is infertile has been set up to sin by God if this command applies to them.
The "not quite good enough" paradox. If we take seriously the "multiply" component in the command, then each set of parents (and that could be 2 or more in ancient marriages) must produce at least one more offspring than the total parents in the family. To fail to produce enough to multiply the race is to fail the command even is there are children in the family. A review of scripture reveals quite an impressive list of families who have "come up short". Just a short list:
Isaac & Rebekah
Joseph & Asenath
Dan & his wife
Moses & Zipporah
Elimelech & Naomi
Boaz & Ruth
Zachariah & Elizabeth
If it is a sin to not increase the population than why is the sin of these families not exposed? Why no condemnation for their failure to "multiply"?
The "called to serve" paradox. Although the marital relationships of Jesus' disciples are not detailed in the bible, it is certain that some, maybe most, possibly all, were married. Most commentators also believe that it is virtually impossible that Paul was not married due to his position in the religious hierarchy. The fact that he speaks of singleness later is due to the gifts received at his conversion. So, if the purpose of marriage is to procreate, how could Jesus call these men out of their God commanded duty? Did Jesus lead these men into sin by taking them away from their wives?
Dilema's such as these abound both in scripture and in the here and now if we interpret Genesis 1:28 to be a literal command meant for every set of parents.
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 12:14:08 PM
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GraceyGirl
Posts: 79
Joined: 6/4/2006
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I sort of look at it from this perspective.
God tells me. . .over and over. . .that b/c He's my God, He will protect me. He knows the plans He has for me. I trust Him to do just that - protect me. I enjoy fruit as much as the next person, but that whole protection thing is a big deal to me.
But. . .
Every time I get into my car, I put on my seat belt.
Does this mean I don't have faith that God will protect me? Not at all. . .it means that that I am a resident OF earth, and therefore subject to earthly things, like car accidents - no matter how hard I might try to prevent them b/c it's not in my best interest. God lets ME decide that. . .just as He let me choose Him.
We have two amazing children. But right now, we're using BC (condoms) b/c at the moment, it isn't in anyones best interest for me to be pregnant. That doesn't mean we don't eventually want more, but it's like this guy. God speaks to us. Some of us He tells - have it guys. Reprproduce loads. Some of us He says, "now let's think this through." Paul and I try to listen carefully to what He asks of us.
Children are a privilidge - a blessing. They aren't some form of population we're somehow responsible for.
_____________________________
All I want is You ~ All I crave is You
All I want is You ~All I crave is You
My soul pants for God and God ALONE!!
~Misty Edwards
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 12:26:35 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 303
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: granolagirl
Do you feel that if you leave it up to Him, He will just keep allowing you to have one kid after another? Or are we to make our own decision on this? I have thought of using it, but I can't seem to justify it in my heart. I feel like I'm telling God "This is what I want to do and I don't care what You want for us." Maybe I just need a different perspective.
My sister married at 20, and now she and her husband have four kids. They're in the younger 30s and are happy with four kids. What should they do?
< Message edited by abraxas -- 4/11/2008 12:42:05 PM >
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 1:33:42 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2532
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
To fail to produce enough to multiply the race is to fail the command even is there are children in the family. A review of scripture reveals quite an impressive list of families who have "come up short". Just a short list:
Isaac & Rebekah
Joseph & Asenath
Dan & his wife
Moses & Zipporah
Elimelech & Naomi
Boaz & Ruth
Zachariah & Elizabeth
If it is a sin to not increase the population than why is the sin of these families not exposed? Why no condemnation for their failure to "multiply"?
Because the issue is not a specific number. For one thing, they *did* have children. In many of those stories we know it was God who closed the womb, for a specific purpose. In other stories, we only know that a specific child was mentioned, and it is possible that there were more unmentioned.
If there is a problem (and I understand that it is debatable, just giving the QF pov), it is in *refusing* to accept children, and deliberately closing oneself off to that. And as much as people like to use these examples, children are blessings, not car crashes, toothaches, or cancer. Children have eternal souls and are created by God, given as gifts. Death and disease are a result of our fallen world.
_____________________________
 Moo
Shameless Self Promotion~Christmas giveaway this week!
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 1:40:44 PM
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cajonobemom
Posts: 1
Joined: 4/11/2008
Status: offline
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I have a question regarding birth control ... I am not opposed to using means to prevent pregnancy when both husband and wife agree. However, what if husband and wife don't agree with the means of birth control? I do not like the idea of any kind of chemical BC, but my husband doesn't like his option either (we don't want anything permanent, as we hope to have more babies in the future). Does 1 Cor 7:4 mean that I need to submit to his desire, even though I am opposed in my conscience? I want to be a gladly submissive wife! 
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 1:45:39 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
And as much as people like to use these examples, children are blessings, not car crashes, toothaches, or cancer.
I totally agree that children are blessings. Then again, so are many other things. I can orient my life such that some types of blessings are more probable than others. All other things being equal, a nice salary is better than a low one. I might forego the blessing of a nice salary in exchange for a career as a public servant or a missionary. Those are blessings as well, just a different form. I can steer my education such that one is more likely than the other. And of course, no matter how I steer my education, neither is guaranteed.
Now, children are not the same as careers either. So let's pick a different blessing. I can choose to be blessed by living near my extended family and enjoying that community. Or, I can choose, much like a missionary might, to leave that community to be of service in a new community that is strange to me. Both are blessings of a highly personal and human nature, and both are something that I can choose.
I can appreciate the "QF" philosophy. Some of those who've chosen to have large families have been some of the most highly skilled parents I've ever known. I doubt that this is a coincidence. Some are called to this (you?), while others are not (definitely me!). In the end, as others have said, it comes down to one's calling and a personal choice.
BT
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 2:00:50 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
my dh and i use bc because it is right for us. i find it funny that some of the same people who have problems with couples using BC by "preventing God from having control" see no problem in many fertility treatments. i'm sorry, but if you say God controls your having or not having children, then trying to purposely have children by using fertility methods is just as bad if not worse than preventing pregnancy.
Totally agree. People who throw a hissy fit about couples who being responsible with their reproduction are many times the very ones that pretend the scriptures showing barren women don't exist. If you run around the state seeking medications to help you concieve, how could you be against medical measures of controling birth?
A couple in my old church had SEVEN kids, refused birth control, received my tax supported welfare , food stamps, and WIC. Oh, but they were in "God's will" and we were not. 
They lived in a run down shack, had second hand used everything, and mooched off the church every chance they got. I thought we should name the food pantry after them. They were the first in line every Saturday. 
If you can't afford to raise children properly, even get them haircuts on occasion, you have to live in the junkyard in a dangerous area of town because you can't afford to keep them up without assistance from others, get your lights turned off for non payment, your kids can't particpate in anything because you can't even feed them much less pay for soccer, how dare you condemn those who are responsible enough to pop out kids like clowns at a circus?
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RE: Birth control - 4/11/2008 2:04:00 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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I understand the point, but as regarding 3Caps & the folks here, that's probably a bit harsh and not likely what I think they're advocating.
Not my place to say really, but I've never let that stop me from saying anything before.
BT
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