RE: Birth control (Full Version)

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bluestone -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 2:06:20 PM)

Grop,
I am referring to real life situation, and having been in the boat of being condemend for using birth control at one time, I am stating my opinion.

I am sure everyone here can afford all of their kids.



gengwall -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 2:10:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

So, if the purpose of marriage is to procreate, how could Jesus call these men out of their God commanded duty? Did Jesus lead these men into sin by taking them away from their wives?


OTOH, if the purpose of marriage is *only* companionship/sex, and they were married, would he have been leading them into sin? [;)]

Those of us who do not believe in the common use of bc do not believe that marriage is for babies only. We just think that separating out any of the purposes of marriage is not good. Just as it is ridiculous to say that marriage is *only* for making babies, we think it is silly to say that marriage is *only* for pleasure or *only* for a lofty spiritual purpose and children are nothing more than a lifestyle choice.
There are several purposes for marriage, and they go together.
I posted those arguments to refute the idea that Genesis 1:28 is a direct command for every couple. What is your take on Genesis 1:28? I suspect we are saying the same thing in two different ways.



GroupW -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 2:14:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

Grop,
I am referring to real life situation, and having been in the boat of being condemend for using birth control at one time, I am stating my opinion.

I am sure everyone here can afford all of their kids.


Thanks. Just a good thing to clarify to make sure noone get's their toes stepped on (too hard, anyway.)



gengwall -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 2:18:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cajonobemom

I have a question regarding birth control ... I am not opposed to using means to prevent pregnancy when both husband and wife agree. However, what if husband and wife don't agree with the means of birth control? I do not like the idea of any kind of chemical BC, but my husband doesn't like his option either (we don't want anything permanent, as we hope to have more babies in the future). Does 1 Cor 7:4 mean that I need to submit to his desire, even though I am opposed in my conscience? I want to be a gladly submissive wife![;)]
Well, I think 1 Cor 7 deals with sex itself, not necessarily the ancillary issues. For example, does 1 Cor 7 command that a spouse should engage in a sexual practice that they don't want to? I don't think so. It only specifices that sexual relations, what ever that means and is agreed to between the couple, should not be withheld. Birth control is another "sexual practice", as it were. Now, I understand that this disagreement may put a stumbling block in actual sex happening. That is not a good thing. But you need to work through that so that you can get back to a 1 Cor 7 relationship. Paul isn't saying "have sex at any cost". I think he recognizes that other issues besides pure refusal may introduce stumbling blocks in the marriage bed relationship (like, oh, say, kids and jobs and inlaws and nosey neighbors, etc.)

Having said that, does he have a problem with barrier methods? Combining multiple methods (barriers, rythym, etc.) can prove to be virtually as effective as chemical methods. On your side, by chemical methods are you referring specifically to the pill? Do you have a problem using spermicides?



Sideways -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 3:26:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
And as much as people like to use these examples, children are blessings, not car crashes, toothaches, or cancer.


I totally agree that children are blessings. Then again, so are many other things. I can orient my life such that some types of blessings are more probable than others. All other things being equal, a nice salary is better than a low one. I might forego the blessing of a nice salary in exchange for a career as a public servant or a missionary. Those are blessings as well, just a different form. I can steer my education such that one is more likely than the other. And of course, no matter how I steer my education, neither is guaranteed.

Now, children are not the same as careers either. So let's pick a different blessing. I can choose to be blessed by living near my extended family and enjoying that community. Or, I can choose, much like a missionary might, to leave that community to be of service in a new community that is strange to me. Both are blessings of a highly personal and human nature, and both are something that I can choose.


I was even thinking that food is a blessing, but we don't want to overdo that one either. [;)]

But you have made some excellent points. God has many, many blessings in store for us, and the receiving of some might preclude the receiving of others.



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 3:33:43 PM)

If you love children enough, it should be about you blessing them, not you being blessed by them. If, for whatever reason, you cannot be a blessing to kids, I don't think it's uncaring at all to not have them. I have a number of friends who have chosen to remain childless - each for different reasons. I have yet to meet any who don't have kids simply because they think kids are brats and good riddance. I suppose there are folks out there like that - just as their are folks who have kids for the wrong reasons - but I don't think it's right to judge a couples decision of birth control or no as loving kids or not loving kids.

Again, each person needs to prayfully seek God's will for THEM and stop assuming God's will for THEM is God's will for EVERYONE.



elastic -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 4:15:41 PM)

it also bothers me that a lot of times people who chant the 'children are blessings' mantra, (and not necissarily anyone here) are also against adopting children who are already on the planet who need homes. it seems that as long as they are having their own children, they are fine, but they don't want to take on caring for 'blessings' that other people can't or won't care for.

either all children are blessings or they are not .....it can't be just that 'your' children are blessings. believe it or not, there are some non-bc people who don't believe that people should adopt children. or they rationalize that they are in God's will for their lives while they are being blessed with their own children, and therefore they should be expected to care for someone else's.
i'm not sure where that one is in the bible.[8|]



crankius -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 5:22:35 PM)

What I'm going to post has nothing to do with anyone in this thread--seriously--I don't even know y'all! [:D]


I've seen in my area families who are very QF and anti-BC, and they wear their children as a badge of spirituality. They are vocal that a family in obedience and experiencing the Lord's blessings will be a large family.

I find this attitude very wrong. There are lots of entirely Godless people in the world who can spit babies out like sunflower seeds, but are not in obedience to the Lord in their lives. There are lots of very godly, lovely, Christian sisters who are very obedient to the Lord, but for any variety of reasons do not have a large family.

I'm stating the obvious...obviously the number of children you have is not a measure of your spirituality. However, for some of these families it is, and I'm not even sure they have thought through how that attitude is wrong, hurtful, insensitive, etc.



Bluethread -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 5:58:54 PM)

The glory is in ruling ones house well. Someone who can rule a house full of children is indeed much more blessed, not just in talent, but the benefits that children bring. However, as the preacher says, (Ec 6:3)
"A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he."



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 9:04:23 PM)

quote:

it also bothers me that a lot of times people who chant the 'children are blessings' mantra, (and not necissarily anyone here) are also against adopting children who are already on the planet who need homes. it seems that as long as they are having their own children, they are fine, but they don't want to take on caring for 'blessings' that other people can't or won't care for.


I have yet to meet anyone like that. Heard rumors about whatshisface but have never read nor heard anything written by a qf person opposing adoption. The most ardently anti bc people I know also tend to be the ones who adopt, and not just one token adopted child, but often very large sibling groups.

I want to adopt. Dh thinks it would be more efficient to build and run an orphanage (takes care of a larger number of children, after all). [8D]



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 9:08:48 PM)

quote:

I'm stating the obvious...obviously the number of children you have is not a measure of your spirituality. However, for some of these families it is, and I'm not even sure they have thought through how that attitude is wrong, hurtful, insensitive, etc.


You are right, there are people that do this. We have been subject to judgement based on numbers alone--I wasn't having babies fast enough and therefore we must have been using birth control or something. [8|]

However, this puts the question in my mind--if someone twists or misuses a concept, does that make the concept untrue?
People can be ugly and insensitive about anything. They can take truth and make it unrecognizeable. But the truth isn't any less the truth for all that misuse.

And alas I am done because one particular blessing is using me as a jungle gym and drooling in my hair when he should be asleep. [8D]



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 9:16:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
However, this puts the question in my mind--if someone twists or misuses a concept, does that make the concept untrue?
People can be ugly and insensitive about anything. They can take truth and make it unrecognizeable. But the truth isn't any less the truth for all that misuse.


Pardon me for saying this, but aren't you doing the same thing when you say that a person using BC means they don't value children and don't see kids as a blessing and don't trust God?

And, I still do not see any biblical mandate for no BC ever. Nor do I see a moral mandate. If God calls you to not use BC - don't. If God calls someone else to use BC - get over it.



GroupW -> RE: Birth control (4/11/2008 9:24:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
And alas I am done because one particular blessing is using me as a jungle gym and drooling in my hair when he should be asleep. [8D]


And alas, this would be one of my favorite things about having had a boy!



tenfour -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 1:04:34 AM)

I don't understand the argument that birth control is rejecting God's control in your life. As if we could thwart God's plans in any way.

And if the argument is applied to other areas of our lives...

We shouldn't wear glasses because we're rejecting God's possible plans for us to have poor vision.
We shouldn't wear seat belts because we're rejecting God's possible plan for us to die in a car accident.
We shouldn't go to the doctor, because God might intend for us not to get well.



Sideways -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 8:03:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Pardon me for saying this, but aren't you doing the same thing when you say that a person using BC means they don't value children and don't see kids as a blessing and don't trust God?


I think most QF'ers here do understand that even the BC using parents still value their children greatly, even if we've chosen to limit our family size. And I know that some QF'ers here do not believe that all Christians are called to be QF.

Maggie, you do believe that all Christians are called to be QF, baring some extreme cases like risk to the mother's life?



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 11:08:22 AM)

quote:

Heard rumors about whatshisface



Are you talking about JimBob Duggar? Cause if you are, I'm fine with them not adopting, they have their hands full with their 17, so long as he doesn't judge others for adopting.

My biggest problem with the Duggars isn't the # of children they have..its their verbally announcing all this "God will provide," jargon, and then excepting all these freebies from Cable TV, so is it "God will provide," or is it cable TV who will provide? It's almost like they bought that stuff with their kids. And now their kids have been overexposed, and have been exposed to people saying not nice things to them on the internet.



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 11:28:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Pardon me for saying this, but aren't you doing the same thing when you say that a person using BC means they don't value children and don't see kids as a blessing and don't trust God?


I think most QF'ers here do understand that even the BC using parents still value their children greatly, even if we've chosen to limit our family size. And I know that some QF'ers here do not believe that all Christians are called to be QF.

Maggie, you do believe that all Christians are called to be QF, baring some extreme cases like risk to the mother's life?


If I am reading the posts wrong, I apologize, but that is the impression I am getting from the posts.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 2:09:37 PM)

quote:

Maggie, you do believe that all Christians are called to be QF, baring some extreme cases like risk to the mother's life?


I think all Christians are called to be open to children and welcome childbearing as a gift, and not just "Sure, yeah, I'm open...if God wants to get past my vasectomy". [;)]

But I do understand why people disagree with that position and I don't think it's a salvation issue. Sometimes a sin/selfishness issue, but not always. And I totally understand certain situations where a couple would feel they have no other option. I've known a few, and they really grieved over it.
I think what bothers me most is watching the church following the world's pattern and the world's wisdom about when and how many children we should have and attitudes towards chidlren. The most horrible comments I have gotten have been from Christians, including someone telling me I really should stop at one child, and she wished she had, while her three children were standing right there with her. [:'(]

Part of the botheration comes from being married to someone who really and truly suffered in his childhood due to material lack, yet still thinks that children are much more important than the size of your house or whether you eat beans every day. Of all the people who should be gung-ho for birth control, it's my dh, but he isn't. Some of his dismay at the attitudes towards children and the definition of "poverty" here in the US has rubbed off on me. [&:]



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 2:12:25 PM)

Do you understand Maggie that being open to children and viewing children as a blessing doesn't necessitate being QF though? That you can be on birth control and "plan" a family and be in God's will just as you can be QF and be in God's will?



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 2:20:27 PM)

quote:

Do you understand Maggie that being open to children and viewing children as a blessing doesn't necessitate being QF though? That you can be on birth control and "plan" a family and be in God's will just as you can be QF and be in God's will?


I understand believing that.

For me it just doesn't work though. If I truly believe that I can't prevent a child God wants me to have, then birth control is pointless (I have never quite understood why that's an argument for birth control). [;)] It ought to work the other way too--if I believe that He knows and creates each one individually and with a purpose (I do), then if I end up with 15 of them, they are each and every one given with a purpose, and if I he allows me to prevent one or 5 of them, then he is allowing me to go outside his perfect will. Since I can only know the ending retrospectively, I want to take those he gives, since I know absolutely that he doesn't make any mistakes, but I am quite capable of doing so. [:)]



BlessedMamaofmany -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 3:00:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

Do you understand Maggie that being open to children and viewing children as a blessing doesn't necessitate being QF though? That you can be on birth control and "plan" a family and be in God's will just as you can be QF and be in God's will?


I understand believing that.

For me it just doesn't work though. If I truly believe that I can't prevent a child God wants me to have, then birth control is pointless (I have never quite understood why that's an argument for birth control). [;)] It ought to work the other way too--if I believe that He knows and creates each one individually and with a purpose (I do), then if I end up with 15 of them, they are each and every one given with a purpose, and if I he allows me to prevent one or 5 of them, then he is allowing me to go outside his perfect will. Since I can only know the ending retrospectively, I want to take those he gives, since I know absolutely that he doesn't make any mistakes, but I am quite capable of doing so. [:)]

Hear hear! Awesome post Maggie!
I can't possibly add anything to that, so I'll just say, fantabulous Maggie!
Sandy
ps. Car2ner, you are just so kind! That was a wonderful thing to say about my family and just tickled me pink =) It made my day to read that...thanks [:D]



Sideways -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 3:17:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

Do you understand Maggie that being open to children and viewing children as a blessing doesn't necessitate being QF though? That you can be on birth control and "plan" a family and be in God's will just as you can be QF and be in God's will?


I understand believing that.

For me it just doesn't work though. If I truly believe that I can't prevent a child God wants me to have, then birth control is pointless (I have never quite understood why that's an argument for birth control). [;)] It ought to work the other way too--if I believe that He knows and creates each one individually and with a purpose (I do), then if I end up with 15 of them, they are each and every one given with a purpose, and if I he allows me to prevent one or 5 of them, then he is allowing me to go outside his perfect will. Since I can only know the ending retrospectively, I want to take those he gives, since I know absolutely that he doesn't make any mistakes, but I am quite capable of doing so. [:)]


I guess that's where there is a fundamental disagreement. I believe God can intervene and cause a women to become barren or pregnant, but for the most part, it is a biological process that will happen according to the woman's fertility, the man's sperm count and mobility and the timing and frequency of sex.

I believe God is the author and designer of everything our bodies do. But once the process was designed and set up, I believe it pretty much works automatically. God is never "forced" to give a child a soul, as He knows everything that will ever happen.

But what I'm trying to say, is that if I were to have never used birth control, for me and my family, we would've had more children then we could manage. Not because we want BMW's or trips to Disneyland, but emotionally and physically, I don't think I could have more then 2 or 3.

And I don't believe that God would intervene to stop me from having lots of children if I am not responsible for my fertility. God allows us to feel the consequences of our actions. Children are blessings, but they are also consequences of sex (yes, I know that a woman doesn't get pregnant every time she has sex).

God expects me to take responsibility for my education, for how I spend my money. Money and a good education are blessings, but I believe God expects some personal responsibility from me, provided I am constantly praying and seeking His guidance.



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 4:03:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

Do you understand Maggie that being open to children and viewing children as a blessing doesn't necessitate being QF though? That you can be on birth control and "plan" a family and be in God's will just as you can be QF and be in God's will?


I understand believing that.

For me it just doesn't work though. If I truly believe that I can't prevent a child God wants me to have, then birth control is pointless (I have never quite understood why that's an argument for birth control). [;)] It ought to work the other way too--if I believe that He knows and creates each one individually and with a purpose (I do), then if I end up with 15 of them, they are each and every one given with a purpose, and if I he allows me to prevent one or 5 of them, then he is allowing me to go outside his perfect will. Since I can only know the ending retrospectively, I want to take those he gives, since I know absolutely that he doesn't make any mistakes, but I am quite capable of doing so. [:)]


I guess our difference then is that I believe one doesn't follow God by just allowing nature to take it's course and assuming that is God's will and the only manner in which God moves. Please see my post #26 and explain why you think that story is wrong.

You see, I believe that God speaks to us and we are behooved to listen. I do not see that God wants everyone person out there to have a family. That is adding to Scripture. I think that is one calling - a wonderful calling to be sure, but not the only one. And I see no Scriptural support for the belief that God will ONLY call folks to do that by physically and supernaturally opening and closing their womb. It's not in the bible hon.

I believe sometimes, even if it hurts, He will call folks to wait or to adopt (instead of) or to follow Him in a different direction. I don't think the ONLY way He will do this is via physically opening and closing the womb. I think usually, He speaks to us and we are to listen. You may think that is minimizing the blessing of children. I think it is putting God first. I don't love kids less because I have none and other don't love kids more because they have more or only think God will dictate family size via direct means. I believe He still speaks - if we will listen.

It's the same for wearing my seatbelt. I could go around without wearing one and say that I am giving complete control of my safety to God. Afterall, if His plan means I get in an accident, what's a seatbelt going to do? And if He is going to protect me from an accident, there is no point in wearing a seatbelt. Am I trying to thwart His will be "taking control" of that area? Or do I realize that God will protect me in many ways - not just divine, direct intervention? I believe that God gives us the means to listen to Him and to direct OUR paths based on what He calls US to do. That's obedience. Obedience isn't letting what's going to happen, happen. Obedience is hearing God and following even if it's not the path you planned or even wanted.

Kids are a blessing, but life isn't about being blessed. Life is about following God wherever He directs. THAT is true blessing. I may not have any kids (I'm single), but I am not "less blessed" because of that. And I actually feel sorry for you that you think that people who use birth control love children less because they believe that God works in more ways than divine intervention in the womb to determine the size of a family. I don't even know how to respond to that. [&o]



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 6:46:17 PM)

quote:

And I actually feel sorry for you that you think that people who use birth control love children less because they believe that God works in more ways than divine intervention in the womb to determine the size of a family. I don't even know how to respond to that.


I don't believe i said that. I did say I am disturbed by attitudes I personally have seen towards children and childbearing. I know many people who practice family planning and love their children and consider them blessings. Most of my friends are more "normal", and have no problem with birth control.
I just don't think birth control has any biblical basis whatsoever, no biblical example, or principal at all. All the Biblical examples we have of marriage assume children or at the very least the openness to children. The early church continued that, as well as adoption, and the entire church understood that until around the turn of the 20th century. They were not ignorant of birth control methods, and there were many available (with varying effectiveness)--nearly 2000 years worth of Christians, church leaders, and theologians of all denominations condemned birth control.

It's not a matter of hoarding blessings and bragging about them. [&:] The reason I use that word so often is to differentiate between car crashes and babies. They are not the same, or even similar, and seat-belt (or toothpaste, or chemotherapy, for that matter)to birth control just doesn't follow .

If you believe some children are born by nature only and should have been prevented, and God didn't directly create them and put them in their mother's womb, what implication does that have for their souls, and would you be willing to say that certain people are extra and not part of the plan of God?



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 6:53:23 PM)

quote:

God expects me to take responsibility for my education, for how I spend my money. Money and a good education are blessings, but I believe God expects some personal responsibility from me, provided I am constantly praying and seeking His guidance.


I also believe that. I just wind up at a different point.[:)] God expects me to be a good steward of what he gives me, absolutely. Since I believe that every child is given with a purpose, then my stewardship comes *after* they are given, just like I can't very well steward money before it's given to me. That means that I take care of the children he gives me with the resources he's given me to do that (mud hut or mansion, rice or steak, city or country), and if I'm having a problem with that, I need to go to him for the strength to get it done, or to change my attitude or emotional situation.

btw, I hope you don't think I am boasting. Today, in particular, I have not done very well at mothering. What I want to do though, is not stay in the not-very-well place, but let God grow me through this. Right now, I'm not equipped to mother 12 children. Strangely enough, God hasn't given me 12. [8D] He's given me three, which is more than I could handle 5 years ago, but which he has grown me up into as he's given them.



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