RE: Birth control (Full Version)

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phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 7:14:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

And I actually feel sorry for you that you think that people who use birth control love children less because they believe that God works in more ways than divine intervention in the womb to determine the size of a family. I don't even know how to respond to that.


I don't believe i said that. I did say I am disturbed by attitudes I personally have seen towards children and childbearing. I know many people who practice family planning and love their children and consider them blessings. Most of my friends are more "normal", and have no problem with birth control.


I guess I'm not understanding you then. I'm disturbed attitudes some people have towards children, but I don't see what that has to do with birth control. People can be just as callous towards kids and pump them out every year as the person who chooses not to have kids because they don't want to bother.

quote:

I just don't think birth control has any biblical basis whatsoever, no biblical example, or principal at all. All the Biblical examples we have of marriage assume children or at the very least the openness to children. The early church continued that, as well as adoption, and the entire church understood that until around the turn of the 20th century. They were not ignorant of birth control methods, and there were many available (with varying effectiveness)--nearly 2000 years worth of Christians, church leaders, and theologians of all denominations condemned birth control.


Birth control is not discussed in Scripture - even though it was a around and has been for thousands of years. If God was against it, He would have said so. We need to be SUPER cautious that we don't call something wrong simply because the Bible doesn't say go do it. That's poor exegesis. Or are you saying that because Scripture doesn't tell us to post online, we shouldn't be posting online? Or because Scripture doesn't tell us to debate, we shouldn't be discussing this?

And nearly 2000 years of Christians, church leaders and theologians had no issue with slavery or bigotry. I don't see that as a good argument. The Bible should be our foundation. And you are again assuming that birth control means you are not open to children. Whereas, what I am saying is that we should be open to what God is calling us to and not limit how He chooses to facilitate that plan. Birth control is not a sin. Have you ever thought that for some, birth control could be how God closes the womb?

quote:

It's not a matter of hoarding blessings and bragging about them. [&:] The reason I use that word so often is to differentiate between car crashes and babies. They are not the same, or even similar, and seat-belt (or toothpaste, or chemotherapy, for that matter)to birth control just doesn't follow .


I'm not saying you are bragging about blessings. I'm saying that how God chooses to bless you is not going to be the same as how God chooses to bless another. If God calls someone to give up a blessing, it's for something better. Maybe God has chosen to have me give up the blessing of kids. That breaks my heart, but I'm following God to serve Him, not to get from Him and I will follow.

And you are correct that car crashes are not the same as babies. The concept is the same however (ie - does God operate in one and only one way) and I'd love for you to address the concept (as in my post #26 that still hasn't been addressed).

quote:

If you believe some children are born by nature only and should have been prevented, and God didn't directly create them and put them in their mother's womb, what implication does that have for their souls, and would you be willing to say that certain people are extra and not part of the plan of God?


Where did I say that some children are born by nature only? Or that God didn't directly create them? That's just downright bizarre to say the least. Every child born was created by God, is loved by God and God wants to use them for His Kingdom (whether they accept that or not). Birth control has nothing to do with that. What I'm saying, and have been saying from the beginning, is that for some people, birth control can be the means by which God opens and closes the womb. I do not believe that God ONLY works through divine intervention. I believe that He speaks to us and if we are willing to hear Him, we will know when He wants us to have kids, when He wants us to wait, when He wants us to not. And if we are obedient, we will follow as He directs.

I don't know how to make it any plainer.

If God has called you to be QF, God bless you in that. You are being obedient to His call and that's awesome. If God doesn't call someone else to be QF, God bless them in that. I pray they are obedient to His call.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 7:41:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: granolagirl

I know this has been discussed before, and I did do a search but I didn't come up with any threads that were exactly what I'm looking to discuss. I also want the male opinion as well as the female so I didn't want it in the women's folder. Maybe this should be moved to a different folder too..I'm not sure so I'll leave that up to the moderators. [;)]

I wonder how you all feel about birth control. I'm not Catholic (I know mostly in general Catholics are against it) but I feel that it is wrong. I mean aren't you saying that this is a part of your life that you want to control yourself and not trust God with? I'm not trying to start a fight here. I just want to hear what people think..especially those who use BC.
Do you feel that if you leave it up to Him, He will just keep allowing you to have one kid after another? Or are we to make our own decision on this? I have thought of using it, but I can't seem to justify it in my heart. I feel like I'm telling God "This is what I want to do and I don't care what You want for us." Maybe I just need a different perspective.

I believe that Birth Control Pills can cause abortions, so they are most certainly out.
http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

I believe that we are to follow the first commandment of the Bible if we are married, namely to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28). So, I am against purposeful avoidance of pregnancy. What is that? That's a heart attitude that is afraid to have children and which seeks to avoid pregnancy for financial, or other selfish reasons. Our God has PROMISED to give us everything we need, so people cannot make the excuse that they cannot afford more children.

I believe that coitus is NOT the only way a man may achieve orgasm, contrary to many traditional opinions. I see examples in the Song of Songs where the couple is engaging in sexual activity other than coitus. And, the famous Onan sin is dealing with a man who refused to bring forth an heir and so was preventing the Messiah from coming to us. If you examine the genealogies, you'll see that this was an ancestor of our Messiah that was being prevented. So, it wasn't the spilled seed that was the issue - it was that Onan was interfering with the plan of salvation our God had for us.



Sideways -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 7:52:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
If you believe some children are born by nature only and should have been prevented, and God didn't directly create them and put them in their mother's womb, what implication does that have for their souls, and would you be willing to say that certain people are extra and not part of the plan of God?


God gave us all souls; God has a plan for us all. I don't even remotely see how you could have gotten that from my post.

Our physical bodies are built according to the design put in place by God. Our souls are from Him. I am really, really bewildered by what means you could think that my post means that people are outside the plan of God, that some people are "extra".

I was an accident myself, Maggie. My parents were trying to prevent me, but once they found out that their prevention had failed, they loved me and nurtured me very well. They openly told me that God must have wanted me here, and therefore had a plan for me.



Sideways -> RE: Birth control (4/12/2008 7:56:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:

If you believe some children are born by nature only and should have been prevented, and God didn't directly create them and put them in their mother's womb, what implication does that have for their souls, and would you be willing to say that certain people are extra and not part of the plan of God?


Where did I say that some children are born by nature only? Or that God didn't directly create them? That's just downright bizarre to say the least.


Actually, she might've been directing that comment about one of my posts.



car2ner -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 10:06:38 AM)

quote:

was an accident myself, Maggie. My parents were trying to prevent me, but once they found out that their prevention had failed, they loved me and nurtured me very well. They openly told me that God must have wanted me here, and therefore had a plan for me.


HI sideways! I mentioned the very same thing about my daughter in a previous post in this thread. God overruled my choice so it must have been important for her to be here. It is nice to hear from someone on the recieving side of this discussion.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 12:57:55 PM)

I honestly don't understand why Maggie is basically being accused of being judgmental in this thread. I don't think she is in any way trying to judge anybody. She is simply stating her belief, and she has just as much right to do that as the rest of us. I honestly think Maggie is about the most gracious QFer that I've ever "met." I don't necessarily have the views she does, but I do appreciate her holding to her convictions, and at the same time, I personally don't see her as trying to shove her beliefs down anyone's throat.


These BC/QF threads always seem to go round and round in circles. Both sides know their own mind, neither side is likely to change....it almost seems pointless after a while.



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 1:55:31 PM)

She's not being accused of being judgemental, some of us are challenging her assertions. [;)]



GroupW -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 5:08:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW

I believe that we are to follow the first commandment of the Bible if we are married, namely to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28). So, I am against purposeful avoidance of pregnancy. What is that? That's a heart attitude that is afraid to have children and which seeks to avoid pregnancy for financial, or other selfish reasons.


Sometimes, as in my case and many others, it was a heart that simply did not feel called to be a dad. I think that's an excessively constrained view of the many reasons people have for not being parents.

As far as Gen 1:28, is the earth filled yet? I would have to think so.
Is this command for all people? If so, then what do you do with a Paul who desired that all people would remain single as he was. If you make room for someone like Paul to be an exception, then surely one can make room for other exceptions like we were.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 5:17:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:

ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
I believe that we are to follow the first commandment of the Bible if we are married, namely to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28). So, I am against purposeful avoidance of pregnancy. What is that? That's a heart attitude that is afraid to have children and which seeks to avoid pregnancy for financial, or other selfish reasons.

Sometimes, as in my case and many others, it was a heart that simply did not feel called to be a dad. I think that's an excessively constrained view of the many reasons people have for not being parents.

As far as Gen 1:28, is the earth filled yet? I would have to think so.
Is this command for all people? If so, then what do you do with a Paul who desired that all people would remain single as he was. If you make room for someone like Paul to be an exception, then surely one can make room for other exceptions like we were.

Some are called to be eunuchs. If you're a eunuch you can't keep that commandments. There are many commandments in the Bible that only apply to specific groups of people. For example, commandments concerning the Levites only apply to those from the tribe of Levi. Commandments pertaining to women only apply to women. Those who marry end up having children because that's what usually happens when you have sexual intercourse, right?

No, the earth isn't filled yet.



GroupW -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 5:25:54 PM)

How full does it need to be before it's "filled"?

Paul was not a eunuch. Wouldn't this commandment still apply since he was biologically capable of being a father?



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 5:28:07 PM)

But "be fruitful and multiple" is not a commandment. It was before the Law. It was God speaking to Adam and Eve in the Garden before the Fall. The only command at that time was for Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

If you don't believe me, reread Genesis 1:28-31 and see what else God told Adam and Eve. God says to Adam & Eve to be fruitful and multiply. The word here is 'amar. The same exact word is used in verse 29 when God says to them that every seed-bearing plant on the entire earth is food for them. Are you going to argue that we are commanded to eat every seed-bearing plant on the entire earth now? (which would be dangerous by the way).



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 5:45:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

How full does it need to be before it's "filled"?

Paul was not a eunuch. Wouldn't this commandment still apply since he was biologically capable of being a father?

Some people are not able to marry or they are called to some special service and they have no time to marry. Paul seems to have been a "eunuch for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven [HaShem]" (Matthew 19:12; 1 Corinthians 7:7), or someone who dedicates themselves to God and choose celibacy. Like I said, that commandment is for those who marry, for someone who is celibate can't really keep that commandment.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 5:49:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

But "be fruitful and multiple" is not a commandment. It was before the Law. It was God speaking to Adam and Eve in the Garden before the Fall. The only command at that time was for Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

If you don't believe me, reread Genesis 1:28-31 and see what else God told Adam and Eve. God says to Adam & Eve to be fruitful and multiply. The word here is 'amar. The same exact word is used in verse 29 when God says to them that every seed-bearing plant on the entire earth is food for them. Are you going to argue that we are commanded to eat every seed-bearing plant on the entire earth now? (which would be dangerous by the way).

There weren't commandments before the Law of God was given at Mount Sinai? Sorry, but you're wrong. Read Genesis 26:5,

"...because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."



Liveloved -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 5:55:40 PM)

I have not read through the entire thread but did want to add some thoughts. Yes, this topic is often one which has definite 'sides' which is unfortunate. We are fearfully and wonderfully made, each created as originals, and we have not done a good job of living in the liberty of the Spirit which allows for and encourages the variety that God intended.

That said, I want to share some perspectives. Our Western culture has done an interesting thing with 'family', having elevated it to a position that the scriptures (and God) do not seem to share. Please don't misunderstand me. Certainly we are all important, valuable to God. But who did Jesus say His family was? Not his biological mother and brothers. No, Jesus said, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

How many of us are willing to hear this? How many of us LIVE this? This is God's teaching on family.

Where do we see children in the NT? Oh, certainly Jesus said do not hinder them and let them come. But where are they? They were NOT the centerpiece of what was taking place which is what we see in our culture and in much of our church culture as well.

And then there is the question of resources---who is providing for the children we are having. The Apostle Paul certainly taught mutual caring for one another in the family of God but he also taught that we NOT be a burden to anyone.

Many of those in the community I live in are choosing to have large families but at taxpayer expense. So while they continue to have child, after child, after child, they are asking and expecting and receiving large sums of money for their family's care. Child birth expense, child hospitalization for illness, prenatal and postnatal care, and on and on are a tremendous expense that these individuals are depending upon the taxpayer to provide for them.

If Christians want to choose to have large families, that should be their freedom to choose. But their freedom comes with their responsibility. They have found a way out. And are taking it. I don't believe this is God's way. I know it is not. And it makes me ashamed.

So while I absolutely encourage others to love Jesus and live in response to that love, which includes all variety of 'family', I think we must be very careful that we are living as God would have us live---and not a burden to others. That does not exalt the name of Jesus. Freedom of choice comes with freedom of responsibility and that's what the Christian people need to live.



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 5:55:43 PM)

I didn't say there were no commands prior to Moses. I said this was before the Law (before the Fall) and at that time, God had only given them ONE command.

And please answer the 2nd paragraph of what I wrote.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 6:02:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

I didn't say there were no commands prior to Moses. I said this was before the Law (before the Fall) and at that time, God had only given them ONE command.

And please answer the 2nd paragraph of what I wrote.

Sorry, but Genesis 1:28 is clearly the first commandment of the Torah and it has been commonly understood this way for thousands of years. For me, this isn't open to anymore discussion. I have said my piece on whether or not it is His commandment. Shalom.



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/13/2008 6:06:14 PM)

I guess I made a good point since you won't discuss it.



bluestone -> RE: Birth control (4/14/2008 9:19:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved



Where do we see children in the NT? Oh, certainly Jesus said do not hinder them and let them come. But where are they? They were NOT the centerpiece of what was taking place which is what we see in our culture and in much of our church culture as well.

And then there is the question of resources---who is providing for the children we are having. The Apostle Paul certainly taught mutual caring for one another in the family of God but he also taught that we NOT be a burden to anyone.

Many of those in the community I live in are choosing to have large families but at taxpayer expense. So while they continue to have child, after child, after child, they are asking and expecting and receiving large sums of money for their family's care. Child birth expense, child hospitalization for illness, prenatal and postnatal care, and on and on are a tremendous expense that these individuals are depending upon the taxpayer to provide for them.

If Christians want to choose to have large families, that should be their freedom to choose. But their freedom comes with their responsibility. They have found a way out. And are taking it. I don't believe this is God's way. I know it is not. And it makes me ashamed.



good points. The marriage should be the centerpiece of the home...not the children or number of children.

If you can afford a large number of children, fine. But don't put the upkeep on the taxpayer who has been resonsible with number of children they have had.

Walk through any older cemetery, and see the large number of children's graves. In the past, people had a lot of babies, but many, many of them died. So birth control was a moot point..illness and injury took care of the population. Now, with modern medicine, it is rare that children die, much less five or six in the same family dying. Perhaps the blessing of children was that one or two of them actually lived to reach adulthood.



GroupW -> RE: Birth control (4/14/2008 10:15:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

How full does it need to be before it's "filled"?

Paul was not a eunuch. Wouldn't this commandment still apply since he was biologically capable of being a father?

Some people are not able to marry or they are called to some special service and they have no time to marry. Paul seems to have been a "eunuch for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven [HaShem]" (Matthew 19:12; 1 Corinthians 7:7), or someone who dedicates themselves to God and choose celibacy. Like I said, that commandment is for those who marry, for someone who is celibate can't really keep that commandment.


OK, so I see your word choice for eunuch was more figurative. That's fine. Still, if we make exceptions for those not called to marry, is there not room for another exception for those who are not called to remain single but are also not called to have children? There is no mention in scripture that the "eunuch exception" is the only exception that can be made.

And again, how full must the earth be before we can call this one fulfilled?



stephengoswami -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 2:14:05 AM)

quote:



For the record, I am single, never married and a virgin, so if you think I'm some kind of sex slave, you are very mistaken.

As far as sex: Sex is only a sin when it is between folks who shouldn't be doing it (outside the husband and wife bond). You need to read the NT if you disagree with that. Paul actually TELLS married folks to ONLY remain abstinant FOR A TIME and with MUTUAL consent. He also tells single folks that it's better to be single, but if you can't control yourself (sexually) GET MARRIED. Sex is a beautiful thing God created to be shared between a husband and wife. If it is ONLY intended for procreation, apparently God screwed up when he created certain parts of the female anatomy that have zero purpose other than enjoyment.
[/quote

Sex is not just an act, but our mental infatuation bond with flesh. Every one has that, virgin or celibate. Sin is a relative term. Devil and vipers can be considered a creation of God but those are not good for us, may be for others. Many things are permitted, but we have to choose the best among them. So sincere Christ followers choose to produce spiritual children only.



stephengoswami -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 2:44:24 AM)

quote:


I believe that we are to follow the first commandment of the Bible if we are married, namely to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28).



Christ and Heavenly Father commanded us to be spiritual prolific not carnally, as we are not this perishable body but soul.
But Heaven fallen humanity (rev12-7,12) taking refuge in animal body has been captivated by carnal sex. now he has to produce carnal perverted children like self compulsively. So we have overrun this small place by our evil generations perverting, poisoning all fauna, flora and now scheming to destroy everything by A-bomb.
Our world was infinite spiritual Heaven. But being degenerated (read my other posts) we propped up a glory and worship hungry vain God (in fact Devil) as in O.T. and other religions. So quarreling we fell here in earth in animal body.
But humble Heavenly Father repenting for us (parents repent in behalf of children) has sent Christ to save suicidal us from making hell. So he teaches us true love for making heaven. But very few heed him really. They revert back to Christ forbidden O.T. and even introduced its vengeful God into N.T. too by interpolated Revelation.
If we heed Christ we can regain spiritual love and Heaven. There we shall be able to generate spiritual children by uniting spiritually with Heaven and our God given spouse. Already I am trying to make such children being united with Christ.



kimbo66 -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 3:25:15 AM)

I have read the posts and found the threads interesting. Children are a blessing from the Lord, Sarah knew that she was blessed at an old age when Isaac was given to her. He was only one child yet God promised his descendants to be as numerous as the stars. They didn't complain that she wasn't fruitful enough was praised God for his faithfulness.

People are blessed with different gifts and abilities, thats what makes our world so marvelous. We cant all be Doctors because we need the nurses to comfort and monitor us.Neither can we all be spurning out children, some are extremely fertile while others are not. Some suffer from diseases and issues such as post natal depression, others don't.

God gave us all the gift of birth control to use wisely and not in ignorance. There are thousands of abortions per year that could have been avoided if used properly, as we all fail and fall short of the glory of God.

I agree that God can circumvent the birth control and give you a blessing that was unintended, but that can become a blessing in disguise as my youngest of 3 did. He was always meant to be.

What I am very concerned about is the legalism that is attached to Christianity. If we are all saved and set free and have a personal relationship with our King, then our decision will be prayer based with all the factors taken into account. Therefore everyones decision will be based on the journey that is right for them.



Corne -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 5:03:47 AM)

A few thoughts, insights on QF perspective. The word "control" is misleading. The point is to not prevent the blessing God would like to send into your life. It's allowing every UPS truck with God's blessing to be delivered instead of saying no thankyou to shipment #3. etc.

Any healthy husband and wife would be capable of bearing children. If there is a medical problem most QFers would seek medical help for the same reason anyone else would, to correct a medical condition. To try and become physically capable of what God designed but is sometimes broken in a fallen world.

Of course there are variances in QF POVs but in general, QF see this family lifestyle as a calling that they feel many Christian families are ignoring or opting out of, Like the child or teen, serious about following Christ, saying, "I hope God doesn't call me to Africa" QF POV sees the call to Africa (embracing more open family size) as a call many many Christians don't want to hear from God.

Some QFs do think most are called, baring unfixable medical issues etc. Some Qfs think some are called, and some that are called don't want to answer. Many QFs wish that others would see the validity of the QF call and embrace it for themselves, but have no interest in judging or evaluating the lifestyles of any specific family.

I think our world needs well cared for children. They are rather important for the future of our country, planet etc until Christ returns.

My tax dollars help to fix roads that I travel on and roads that I don't. My tax dollars help fund public schools, though I've never needed their services. My tax dollars help to give medical care to families and food to some. This is okay with me, my money is supposed to benefit and help burden bear more than just my own self or family.

Among Christians there are QFs and non QFs that do a lousy job of raising their families and bearing their own burdens. Discipleship is certainly appropriate when we have a relationship that supports that, but I think we often spend a great deal of unnecessay energy in being frustrated with those that just don't do things as well as we think they should.



car2ner -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 6:31:30 AM)

quote:

But humble Heavenly Father repenting for us (parents repent in behalf of children) has sent Christ to save suicidal us from making hell. So he teaches us true love for making heaven. But very few heed him really. They revert back to Christ forbidden O.T. and even introduced its vengeful God into N.T. too by interpolated Revelation.
If we heed Christ we can regain spiritual love and Heaven. There we shall be able to generate spiritual children by uniting spiritually with Heaven and our God given spouse. Already I am trying to make such children being united with Christ.


Well, if this is thought provoking atleast.(scratching my head and thinking, hmmmmm?) So you are saying that BC is a moot point because the truly righteous don't have sex anyhow? What exactly is a "spiritual child"? Is this actually the correct thread for this discussion?



Kath -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 9:58:57 AM)

quote:

If we heed Christ we can regain spiritual love and Heaven. There we shall be able to generate spiritual children by uniting spiritually with Heaven and our God given spouse. Already I am trying to make such children being united with Christ.


I'm sorry but, what are you talking about?



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