RE: Birth control (Full Version)

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3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 2:04:50 PM)

quote:

I guess I made a good point since you won't discuss it.


Ummm...no. I used to go for 75 pages on these round and round discussions. But these days, I have a life. [;)] I actually intended *not* to participate at all, but got sucked right in. IME, this particular topic will go around and around for a bunch of pages, and eventually get personal, with mean things said about large families and references to welfare and Andrea Yates and denim jumpers, etc. In the past, I have found that I end up thinking of how I'm going to word my next point, and getting irritated with certain attidues, and it affects how I behave with my family.

Since they are the ones that have to live with me, I'm afraid I am not going to be able to continue the debate. But lest you think otherwise, I disagree with your point(s) and you've not changed my mind, or even come close. [8D]



Heavendweller -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 2:39:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: granolagirl
I have thought of using it, but I can't seem to justify it in my heart. I feel like I'm telling God "This is what I want to do and I don't care what You want for us." Maybe I just need a different perspective.

Without having read any of the responses yet, I came to the same conclusion for myself as you. Doctors have recommended various kinds of birth control to me over the years. The first time it was pills. I took them home and the Holy Spirit strongly impressed upon me not to take them. I threw them out.

The next time the doctor offered a different kind of birth control. I took it home and was going to use it when the same thing occured as previously. So I threw the birth control device away. I never considered birth control since.

Instead, I've practiced the rhythym method, which is natural family planning. I have two children. My husband was very willing to work with me and agreed with my decision.

Since that time, I've read up on the subject and was surprised to learn that at one time, all Christians thought birth control was morally wrong. Since I haven't read any of the responses to your OP, it will be interesting to see what others think.

I have a clear conscience for the choice I made. I wouldn't want to have done it any other way.

May the Lord guide you in this very serious decision.

Heavendweller



Lurker -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 2:40:35 PM)

I'm just curious, I know that most everyone here is Protestant, but that said, has anyone ever looked into the Catholic reasonings? I ask because the late Pope, John Paul II did a series of talks that became known as "the Theology of the Body" and they address this topic (among many others). I know that not only Catholic churches are doing talks on this, but I believe some of the QF supporting Protestant churches are using it now as well.

Have you read any of these talks given by the late Pope? And if so, what do you think of them?

here's a link discussing the Theology of the Body for those interested in learning more.
http://www.nfpoutreach.org/Hogan_Theology_%20Body1.htm



BlessedMamaofmany -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 2:49:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

I guess I made a good point since you won't discuss it.


Ummm...no. I used to go for 75 pages on these round and round discussions. But these days, I have a life. [;)] I actually intended *not* to participate at all, but got sucked right in. IME, this particular topic will go around and around for a bunch of pages, and eventually get personal, with mean things said about large families and references to welfare and Andrea Yates and denim jumpers, etc. In the past, I have found that I end up thinking of how I'm going to word my next point, and getting irritated with certain attidues, and it affects how I behave with my family.

Since they are the ones that have to live with me, I'm afraid I am not going to be able to continue the debate. But lest you think otherwise, I disagree with your point(s) and you've not changed my mind, or even come close. [8D]

Agreed. Count me in there too. What you said LOL

Sandy



elastic -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 2:53:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

I guess I made a good point since you won't discuss it.


Ummm...no. I used to go for 75 pages on these round and round discussions.



maggie, she wasn't addressing you, she was addressing another poster.

quote:

I disagree with your point(s) and you've not changed my mind, or even come close.


i think after the 15 or 16th thread on this topic, i can say the same. [&:]



Heavendweller -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 2:55:02 PM)

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

Questions then come to my mind:
- are there two commandments, or only one. Is it "be fruitul and fill the earth", or is it "1) Be fruitful. 2) Fill the earth"

- If it's one commandment, then haven't we filled it enough? Isn't 6, or 7 or 8 billion people enough? At what point is a commandment fulfilled. Personally, I'm wondering if God isn't saying, "Enough already, folks!"

Take a look at Western Europe, where birth control is very popular. Their population rate has plunged phenomenally. And the only thing increasing their population is due to the influx of immigrants, especially Muslims who love to pro-create. And we know the problem that is causing. :)

Heavendweller



Heavendweller -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 3:05:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius
This is a topic that should be treated with great sensitivity and A LOT of grace.

Very charitable and gracious statement.

Heavendweller



bluestone -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 3:10:29 PM)

If you must depend on others or the government to finance your quiver, then it is time for one or the other to get snipped. OR the government and help organizations to draw the line for you: No money or food suplements after X number of kids.



relady -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 3:31:48 PM)

quote:

I've read up on the subject and was surprised to learn that at one time, all Christians thought birth control was morally wrong.
I suspect that the Protestant view changed at least in part because not practicing family planning/birth control was mostly a Catholic doctrine. I know when I was growing up (SBC in the 60s & 70s), anything remotely Catholic in origin (real or perceived) was trashed.

quote:

If you must depend on others or the government to finance your quiver, then it is time for one or the other to get snipped. OR the government and help organizations to draw the line for you: No money or food suplements after X number of kids.
I am so on board with that. Although in reality, lines like that end up just hurting the kids who have no control over the situation at all.



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 4:11:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

I guess I made a good point since you won't discuss it.


Ummm...no. I used to go for 75 pages on these round and round discussions. But these days, I have a life. [;)] I actually intended *not* to participate at all, but got sucked right in. IME, this particular topic will go around and around for a bunch of pages, and eventually get personal, with mean things said about large families and references to welfare and Andrea Yates and denim jumpers, etc. In the past, I have found that I end up thinking of how I'm going to word my next point, and getting irritated with certain attidues, and it affects how I behave with my family.

Since they are the ones that have to live with me, I'm afraid I am not going to be able to continue the debate. But lest you think otherwise, I disagree with your point(s) and you've not changed my mind, or even come close. [8D]


As elastic stated, I was not addressing you - I was addressing a completely different poster and a completely different issue. I'm sorry you thought I was talking about you. I wasn't.

As far as changing your mind: I have never said you shouldn't be QF. In fact, I have stated more than once that if God calls you to be QF, God bless you in that. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was trying to change your mind. My only point is that each person needs to seek God's will in this matter themselves and that I do not believe everyone is called to be QF and why.



Restored_Heart -> RE: Birth control (4/21/2008 7:18:18 PM)

Just to put in my .02...

When God decides its time, its time..... This little peanut was conceived while on BC....[;)]

Just goes to show when you pray inadvertently, God can answer :).

My prayer was specifically for God to let us know about when to have one more.... apparently the answer was, "Now"[8D]



car2ner -> RE: Birth control (4/22/2008 6:42:03 AM)

tee hee, now you can let the peanut know, God wanted you here.



stephengoswami -> RE: Birth control (4/23/2008 2:24:15 AM)

The real vocation of real Christians is to make spiritual progeny being united with Holy Spirit. So, Mary conceived Christ being united with Holy Spirit. Christ and the apostles did not make carnal progeny. They made spiritual progeny only. Even if we can’t convert our carnal children to spiritual progeny they will lost to us eternally. My carnal body is not me. I am a soul created in heaven in God’s image, while my body is in animal Ape’s image. God did not create our soul in this devil’s deadly domain. Please read my other posts.
I said about the process of creating our souls in heaven. It is through mystical experience i.e. what Christ Is talking today to his followers. But it is in the bible too, if you can read between the lines.



car2ner -> RE: Birth control (4/23/2008 6:45:02 AM)

quote:

Please read my other posts.


I did and I still say, "huh?" I find that the bible encourages good old hot and sweaty communion between married folks. Hense the reason for this discussion. No one needs to be married to create "spiritual children". Anyone of us can be an example of the life God would have us live. And those around us should say, "I want some of that".

In the meantime, I have to get ready for work and teach some flesh and blood children. L8R



Lurker -> RE: Birth control (4/23/2008 11:08:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stephengoswami

The real vocation of real Christians is to make spiritual progeny being united with Holy Spirit. So, Mary conceived Christ being united with Holy Spirit. Christ and the apostles did not make carnal progeny. They made spiritual progeny only. Even if we can’t convert our carnal children to spiritual progeny they will lost to us eternally. My carnal body is not me. I am a soul created in heaven in God’s image, while my body is in animal Ape’s image. God did not create our soul in this devil’s deadly domain. Please read my other posts.
I said about the process of creating our souls in heaven. It is through mystical experience i.e. what Christ Is talking today to his followers. But it is in the bible too, if you can read between the lines.


Err. That's actually gnosticism, or a variant thereof. We aren't just souls inside a body, the body is part of us. God created the physical world and pronounced it good, but when He made us, body and soul, He called us VERY good. To say that our body isn't good, and in a sense is created only by the devil does dishonour to the Lord who made our bodies and called them very good.



Kath -> RE: Birth control (4/23/2008 7:14:58 PM)

stephengoswami

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kielbasa -> RE: Birth control (4/24/2008 2:13:18 PM)

I am Catholic, and I really do no expect non-Catholics to agree with me about BC--even though I never used BC prior to becoming Catholic. (And no, I don't have a housefull of children, as much as I wanted them[&o])

I do wish, however, that more people understood the difference between contraception and birth control. If one absolutely has to use one, contraception (barrier methods) is a much better choice than abortifacients.

Plus, you aren't messing up your system with hormones[;)].



clag4christ -> RE: Birth control (4/25/2008 5:07:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

If you must depend on others or the government to finance your quiver, then it is time for one or the other to get snipped. OR the government and help organizations to draw the line for you: No money or food suplements after X number of kids.

Right...because the gov't. is the most qualified 'entity' to decide how many children a fmaily should have...

Eugenics is disgusting...



LaurainAL -> RE: Birth control (4/25/2008 7:35:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: clag4christ

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

If you must depend on others or the government to finance your quiver, then it is time for one or the other to get snipped. OR the government and help organizations to draw the line for you: No money or food suplements after X number of kids.

Right...because the gov't. is the most qualified 'entity' to decide how many children a fmaily should have...

Eugenics is disgusting...



I don't think bluestone is saying that the government should decide how many kids you have, but that welfare should cease at a certain number. That isn't the same thing.



phosadaud -> RE: Birth control (4/25/2008 9:06:01 PM)

Exactly. It's called personal responsibility. Don't expect someone else to be responsible for your decisions. End of story.



Kath -> RE: Birth control (4/26/2008 12:20:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

Exactly. It's called personal responsibility. Don't expect someone else to be responsible for your decisions. End of story.



I agree with that too.



clag4christ -> RE: Birth control (4/26/2008 1:53:41 PM)

quote:

I don't think bluestone is saying that the government should decide how many kids you have, but that welfare should cease at a certain number. That isn't the same thing.


quote:

Exactly. It's called personal responsibility. Don't expect someone else to be responsible for your decisions. End of story.


Ah...that makes sense. I thought welfare had been changed...I know that tax credits for children have a cut off as well (6 or something like that).



MissGizmo -> RE: Birth control (4/26/2008 2:52:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

Exactly. It's called personal responsibility. Don't expect someone else to be responsible for your decisions. End of story.


I totally agree with what was said.



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