When does personhood begin? (Full Version)

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solo_soprano22 -> When does personhood begin? (4/10/2008 6:33:10 PM)

I've seen this thrown in with IVF or stem cell research, and I don't see a current thread on it. So, when does personhood or ensoulment happen, in your opinion, and why are you of this opinion?



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/10/2008 6:41:54 PM)

I am of the belief that it begins at conception. I am not feeling well today, so I will get back to you later on the whys.



Bluethread -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/10/2008 6:52:11 PM)

Even if it does not begin at conception, I believe we should error on the side od caution and presume it does.



rcjames -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/10/2008 7:06:46 PM)

conception.


THanks
RC



Jhud -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/10/2008 11:15:11 PM)

I don't think anyone can say with certainty when it begiins, but I am certain it doesn't begin before coception, and that it must happen sometime after conception. As there is no line after conception which tells us when it might begin after conception, we must assume it happens at conception.



tenfour -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:10:21 AM)

I have no idea when, but I assume conception to be on the safe side.



gengwall -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 10:08:02 AM)

I believe "personhood" from a constitutional perspective happens at conception. Now, when "ensoulment" occurs is a whole 'nother matter. The bible certainly provides no guidance. My best guess is that it happens at implantation. I have several reasons for that determination.

1. Many embryos spontaneously abort before implantation without any influence or even knowledge of the mother. It seems strange to me that God would "waste" souls on embryos that have no shot at developing and where there is no external cause to their demise.

2. Almost all twining happens before implantation. If ensoulment happens at conception, then how do monozygotic twins each get their individual souls. Does God swap out two for one, or simply allocate another once the split in the zygote occurs? It seems to me to make more sense that God waits until those types of issues settle out.

3. I simply can't wrap my head around the idea of embryos frozen in some freezer or floating around in petrie dishes already having souls.

I am also open to the idea that God ensouls each individual when God decides to ensoul him/her. There is no reason to believe that something as supernatural as ensoulment needs to occur within the physical boundaries of our space/time paradigm.



Jhud -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 10:47:36 AM)

quote:

I believe "personhood" from a constitutional perspective happens at conception. Now, when "ensoulment" occurs is a whole 'nother matter. The bible certainly provides no guidance. My best guess is that it happens at implantation. I have several reasons for that determination.

1. Many embryos spontaneously abort before implantation without any influence or even knowledge of the mother. It seems strange to me that God would "waste" souls on embryos that have no shot at developing and where there is no external cause to their demise.


If a 3 month old baby dies in the womb, has God ‘wasted’ a soul? What about a preemie that dies? A 1 year old? This is bad a criteria.

quote:

2. Almost all twining happens before implantation. If ensoulment happens at conception, then how do monozygotic twins each get their individual souls. Does God swap out two for one, or simply allocate another once the split in the zygote occurs? It seems to me to make more sense that God waits until those types of issues settle out.


So you would argue that a conjoined twin has one soul?

quote:

3. I simply can't wrap my head around the idea of embryos frozen in some freezer or floating around in petrie dishes already having souls.


So if I were frozen as an adult, and then resuscitated, where would my soul be during that time?

The fact is we don’t know when 'ensoulment' occurs anymore than we can pinpoint personhood (and I would argue they are interchangeable notions) and attempting to say ‘it can’t happen at X point’ is problematic, as I have shown.



zoebob -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 10:56:48 AM)

quote:


2. Almost all twining happens before implantation. If ensoulment happens at conception, then how do monozygotic twins each get their individual souls. Does God swap out two for one, or simply allocate another once the split in the zygote occurs? It seems to me to make more sense that God waits until those types of issues settle out.


Because it's not a surprise to God. He knows how many babies there are going to be and how many souls to "send"



gengwall -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 11:24:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

If a 3 month old baby dies in the womb, has God ‘wasted’ a soul? What about a preemie that dies? A 1 year old? This is bad a criteria.
Once implanted, the actions of the mother can have an impact on the development and viability of the fetus. Pre-implantation, there is no external human impact that I know of which determines if an embryo will spontaneously abort or not. The 3 month old fetus has a chance at surviving to birth and therefore may be ensouled even though it dies. Was it a waste of a soul? One might look at it that way. Just as one may see all the aborted babies as "wastes" of souls. But, as I pointed out, I am not convinced so much that ensoulment takes place at an invariable point in all pregnancies. My contention is mostly that it doesn't happen prior to implantation.

Of course, once a person is born, they obviously have a soul (whether they act like it or not). So, the premie and the 1 year old are irrelevant to a discussion of something that clearly happens at some time prior to birth.

quote:

So you would argue that a conjoined twin has one soul?
Certainly not. Now, from a development standpoint, I do not know at what point in the process the conjoining takes place. In other words, I don't know if it is a pre-implantation or post-implantation event, or even if there is a general rule. Having said that, I do know there is the possibility, albiet rare, of twining happening post-implantation. I expect God is sufficient enough to handle those extreem situations.

quote:

So if I were frozen as an adult, and then resuscitated, where would my soul be during that time?
That's a fair point.

quote:

The fact is we don’t know when 'ensoulment' occurs anymore than we can pinpoint personhood (and I would argue they are interchangeable notions) and attempting to say ‘it can’t happen at X point’ is problematic, as I have shown.
I think that is pretty much what I concluded with. I do separate personhood and ensoulment simply because the former is specifically used in a consitutional and legal context whereas the latter is almost exclusively a spritual concern.



Jhud -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 11:58:55 AM)

quote:

Once implanted, the actions of the mother can have an impact on the development and viability of the fetus. Pre-implantation, there is no external human impact that I know of which determines if an embryo will spontaneously abort or not. The 3 month old fetus has a chance at surviving to birth and therefore may be ensouled even though it dies. Was it a waste of a soul? One might look at it that way. Just as one may see all the aborted babies as "wastes" of souls. But, as I pointed out, I am not convinced so much that ensoulment takes place at an invariable point in all pregnancies. My contention is mostly that it doesn't happen prior to implantation.

Of course, once a person is born, they obviously have a soul (whether they act like it or not). So, the premie and the 1 year old are irrelevant to a discussion of something that clearly happens at some time prior to birth.


The point being, as soon as you start trying to assign ‘ensoulment’ to a particular set of physical circumstances (the mothers actions, implantation, etc.) you ascribe to it a biological component that is neither justified by Scripture or biology. In short, we would be guessing; and we shouldn’t relegate human life to guesses.

quote:

Certainly not. Now, from a development standpoint, I do not know at what point in the process the conjoining takes place. In other words, I don't know if it is a pre-implantation or post-implantation event, or even if there is a general rule. Having said that, I do know there is the possibility, albiet rare, of twining happening post-implantation. I expect God is sufficient enough to handle those extreem situations.


Certainly; which is why the argument that we can’t ascribe ensoulment to a particular point of the development of humans holds true, and thus we shouldn’t act on what we don’t know.

quote:

I think that is pretty much what I concluded with. I do separate personhood and ensoulment simply because the former is specifically used in a consitutional and legal context whereas the latter is almost exclusively a spritual concern.


I agree with this distinction.



Memaw. -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 12:41:39 PM)

I have wavered back and forth on this for many years.
Losing 4 pregnancies to miscarriage, I always hoped those children will be in Heaven, but then I look at Adam and his "birth".
He was given life (ensoulment) through Gods breath.

Could that be when it happens, at first breath?

I just don't know.



gengwall -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 12:43:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Memaw.

I have wavered back and forth on this for many years.
Losing 4 pregnancies to miscarriage, I always hoped those children will be in Heaven, but then I look at Adam and his "birth".
He was given life (ensoulment) through Gods breath.

Could that be when it happens, at first breath?

I just don't know.
I believe that is what the ancient Jews believed. Of course, I'm not Jewish so I can't speak for them.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 1:29:45 PM)

Yes, traditional Jewish law holds that first breath=personhood.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 1:34:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Memaw.

I have wavered back and forth on this for many years.
Losing 4 pregnancies to miscarriage, I always hoped those children will be in Heaven, but then I look at Adam and his "birth".
He was given life (ensoulment) through Gods breath.

Could that be when it happens, at first breath?

I just don't know.


A majority of fertilized eggs (embryos) never do implant (or you could say, a great percentage). Are those people? Will they be in Heaven? I know plenty of Christians who hold that implantation=personhood, but I noticed that the Catholic Church apparently doesn't consider these myriads of lost "people" to really be people. Maybe someone can shed some light on that.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 1:57:00 PM)

quote:

A majority of fertilized eggs (embryos) never do implant (or you could say, a great percentage). Are those people? Will they be in Heaven?


Only God knows.

But isn't it a little presumptuous of we who know next to nothing, when you think about it, assuming that they aren't (and then of course justifying getting rid of them with that convenient assumption)?



LCannon -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:19:31 PM)

'Personhood' begins at birth and like 3cappuccinosmom says before that, 'Only God knows'. I'm sure He has that question well in hand. However, responsibility for conception is the real issue not the birth.



gengwall -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:21:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCannon

'Personhood' begins at birth...
Now, are you speaking from a spiritual standpoint or a legal stanpoint? Legally, when personhood begins varies state by state and country by country.



Dubya -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:25:30 PM)

Interesting question!

Another question could be, "When does personhood end?" There are certain medical bioethicists who believe that severely handicapped people have lost their "personhood". The case of Terri Scaivo comes to mind -



Jhud -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:28:34 PM)

quote:

A majority of fertilized eggs (embryos) never do implant (or you could say, a great percentage). Are those people? Will they be in Heaven? I know plenty of Christians who hold that implantation=personhood, but I noticed that the Catholic Church apparently doesn't consider these myriads of lost "people" to really be people. Maybe someone can shed some light on that.


There is nothing magical that happens when an embryo implants, it just continues to develop; and a definition of personhood can't be derived based on survival rates.



Jhud -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:31:55 PM)

quote:

I have wavered back and forth on this for many years.
Losing 4 pregnancies to miscarriage, I always hoped those children will be in Heaven, but then I look at Adam and his "birth".
He was given life (ensoulment) through Gods breath.

Could that be when it happens, at first breath?

I just don't know.


Babies don't breath oxygen through their mouths, but their bodies metabolize oxygen just as ours do; this really doesn't change what or who they are.



Jhud -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:33:44 PM)

quote:

'Personhood' begins at birth and like 3cappuccinosmom says before that, 'Only God knows'. I'm sure He has that question well in hand. However, responsibility for conception is the real issue not the birth.


If personhood begins at birth, how is it some states convict people who kill unborn children (not through abortion) of murder?



solo_soprano22 -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:35:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dubya

Interesting question!

Another question could be, "When does personhood end?" There are certain medical bioethicists who believe that severely handicapped people have lost their "personhood". The case of Terri Scaivo comes to mind -


Well, I believe that your body can be alive but you're not.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:40:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

A majority of fertilized eggs (embryos) never do implant (or you could say, a great percentage). Are those people? Will they be in Heaven?


Only God knows.

But isn't it a little presumptuous of we who know next to nothing, when you think about it, assuming that they aren't (and then of course justifying getting rid of them with that convenient assumption)?


I know people who believe that personhood occurs at some point other than conception, but they say conception only because it's "erring on the side of caution." You can believe one way but still be "cautious" about it. That's why I asked for "opinions" in the OP.



Dubya -> RE: When does personhood begin? (4/11/2008 2:45:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dubya

Interesting question!

Another question could be, "When does personhood end?" There are certain medical bioethicists who believe that severely handicapped people have lost their "personhood". The case of Terri Scaivo comes to mind -


Well, I believe that your body can be alive but you're not.


Perhaps so...

But at what point does one lose their "personhood". The distinction between simply being a "human" and being a "person" is one used by certain bioethicists who seem to want to remove basic human rights from the severely handicapped. To me this seems no less heartless than "abortion on demand".



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