RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/11/2008 8:11:14 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2shaye
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
They have made home-schooling in California illegal already,
FYI - not true! It has been proposed, but it is not a law!
http://www.hsc.org/
Thanks for the clarification. Apparently, one family is not being allowed to homeschool because neither of the parents has teaching credentials. On another note, homeschooling is illegal in Germany. I'm not an expert on the subject, but apparently the UN is pushing for this.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 4:46:47 AM
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Annie64
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I came to this thread after reading another thread about a boy whose art project received a zero because it had religious content against stated policy. I did not support the boy because his attitude didn't seem to be right. When handed a copy of the policy, he tore it up in front of the teacher.
This story is different, however. This teacher is making all kinds of incendiary comments and then trying to say he isn't anti-Christian. Okay, maybe he isn't anti-Christian when it comes to the watered-down liberal version that fits in with society and doesn't even believe the Bible or preach the Gospel anymore. He is anti- Evangelical Christian at least. But his statements sound like he is against all religion, Christianity in particular. He says he is trying to start discussions. But he is making all these comments about statistics to adolescents whose beliefs about the world are still being formed. Even if he is trying to discuss, it is more likely that he will convince, except for the power of God to keep His people, including high school students who don't know that much about the world yet.
This man should definitely be fired, or at least thoroughly reprimanded. I do support this lawsuit, because it's not just that a student was offended. He's not likely to have an effect of this student's beliefs. But he might somebody else's.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 8:24:25 AM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
so they're forcing people there to put their children in schools where they might encounter teachers like this man in question.
Faith, even in children is stronger than this.
quote:
I'm just curious if Christians suing is really setting up the kind of witness we want in the first place?
I don't think its biblical for a christian to sue another christian in civil court...1 Corinthians 6. I am not sure about a christian sueing an unsaved person.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 11:46:05 AM
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lightshineon
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Well looking at the teachers photo, he looks like he would be likely to commit rape and murder.
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F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 1:04:47 PM
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Marcus.
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Man looks at the outside of a person, God looks at the heart. It's hard to tell who is good and evil just from looking at someone alone.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 3:28:23 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I don't think its biblical for a christian to sue another christian in civil court...1 Corinthians 6. I am not sure about a christian sueing an unsaved person.
I don't see how it would be better for a Christian to sue an unsaved person vs. a saved person.
Those are the ones we are trying to bring to Jesus, afterall.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 3:38:14 PM
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Marcus.
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More background on this teacher and his classroom indoctrination sessions would be helpful.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 3:41:14 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well looking at the teachers photo, he looks like he would be likely to commit rape and murder.
huh?
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 3:45:41 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I don't think its biblical for a christian to sue another christian in civil court...1 Corinthians 6. I am not sure about a christian sueing an unsaved person.
I don't see how it would be better for a Christian to sue an unsaved person vs. a saved person.
Those are the ones we are trying to bring to Jesus, afterall.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
Yeah, we are trying to introduce the world to the Messiah. Shouldn't we be people who highly value true justice? If people see us rolling over all the time when people wrong us how is that an example of standing up for true justice? When our Master taught about turning the other cheek he was teaching us to not have a heart that seeks retribution. However, you can stand up for yourself in a righteous way. Sometimes that might mean going to court.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/12/2008 5:43:59 PM
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lightshineon
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He looks dirty, and like a criminal, and his heart does not sound to healthy. I now you cannot judge by apperance though, and it was said tounge in cheek. I serveajew, also children are very impressinoable by what someone in authority tells them, so yes kindness, but also we must consider the doubt and distortion he put in childrens mind.
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well looking at the teachers photo, he looks like he would be likely to commit rape and murder.
huh?
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/12/2008 5:50:32 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/14/2008 11:37:37 AM
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45degreeN
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This lawsuit will probably get thrown out of court.
Jesus didn't teach us to go to law courts with non Christians since this will drag his name into the gutter with them.
Cant we teach our students to have better manners? If you dont like the course then leave!
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/14/2008 11:48:38 AM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 45degreeN
This lawsuit will probably get thrown out of court.
Jesus didn't teach us to go to law courts with non Christians since this will drag his name into the gutter with them.
Cant we teach our students to have better manners? If you dont like the course then leave!
The student was told by his counselor that if he wanted to get into his top tier college choices, he would have to take this course. All of that is beside the point, though. The Constitution is there to prevent government from infringing on citizen's rights. It is very important that violators like this teacher be brought into the light. As Christians we are supposed to follow the laws of the land but we should have every expectation that the government that makes those laws also follows them. This is a perfectly legitimate case.
BTW - they already tried to get the case dismissed, but the judge allowed it to go to trial, so, no, it won't get thrown out of court. The courts generally take the constitution pretty seriously.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 4/14/2008 11:55:06 AM >
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DOGBERRY on posters:
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moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
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thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/14/2008 12:05:37 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
This lawsuit will probably get thrown out of court.
Jesus didn't teach us to go to law courts with non Christians since this will drag his name into the gutter with them.
Cant we teach our students to have better manners? If you dont like the course then leave!
This sounds rather akin to the, "If you don't like the US then leave" mantra.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/15/2008 9:40:43 AM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
This sounds rather akin to the, "If you don't like the US then leave" mantra.
I can't believe my eyes. A conservative saying that people who oppose the war shouldn't leave the country.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/15/2008 11:28:49 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I can't believe my eyes. A conservative saying that people who oppose the war shouldn't leave the country.
It's rather a stereotypical myth liberals tell each other.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/15/2008 7:34:17 PM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
The Constitution is there to prevent government from infringing on citizen's rights.
Which of the student's civil liberties were violated, and how?
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 4/15/2008 7:45:15 PM >
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/15/2008 8:03:11 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
The Constitution is there to prevent government from infringing on citizen's rights.
Which of the student's civil liberties were violated, and how?
The same ones if the teacher had spoken the whole time about how the Bible is the Word of God and that without Jesus you are dead in your sin, etc etc etc....
The same ones...
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/15/2008 10:18:04 PM
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1dblthnk02
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ORIGINAL: earthless
The same ones if the teacher had spoken the whole time about how the Bible is the Word of God and that without Jesus you are dead in your sin, etc etc etc....The same ones...
If the teacher had done this, it would not be a violation of anyone's civil liberties, but rather an abuse of his position in a federally funded facility wherein separation of church and state applies.
I know, I know . . . "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution.
Neither do the words "freedom of religion." Does that mean that we don't have freedom of religion?
Same with "separation of church and state" . . .
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/16/2008 7:20:26 AM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
The same ones if the teacher had spoken the whole time about how the Bible is the Word of God and that without Jesus you are dead in your sin, etc etc etc....The same ones...
If the teacher had done this, it would not be a violation of anyone's civil liberties, but rather an abuse of his position in a federally funded facility wherein separation of church and state applies.
I know, I know . . . "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution.
Neither do the words "freedom of religion." Does that mean that we don't have freedom of religion?
Same with "separation of church and state" . . .
That's the same thing. It is an establishment clause case. The argument is that the government can not indoctrinate someone either for or against a particular religion. How is it that you don't view the "abuse of his position in a federally funded facility wherein separation of church and state applies" to be a violation of someone's civil liberties? Is it not these liberties that the Bill of Rights protects?
< Message edited by gengwall -- 4/16/2008 7:29:35 AM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/16/2008 5:48:01 PM
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lightshineon
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Lucky is was the Christian religon bashed by this man. If he were Muslim, death threats, or death itself would have happened. He would of had to flee the country, the media would have been all over it. We would have debated it to death. He knew which religon to pick on, which is a statement within itself about Christanity.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/16/2008 10:13:39 PM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
The argument is that the government can not indoctrinate someone either for or against a particular religion.
Exactly, and it doesn't seem to me that he was trying to dissuade anyone from Christianity, nor was he proselytizing. No one's personal civil rights were violated in any way.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/16/2008 10:25:35 PM
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lightshineon
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Yes they can children, and what do you think this mans motavation was? Would you feel the same if Muslim beliefs were bashed?
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
The argument is that the government can not indoctrinate someone either for or against a particular religion.
Exactly, and it doesn't seem to me that he was trying to dissuade anyone from Christianity, nor was he proselytizing. No one's personal civil rights were violated in any way.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/17/2008 7:34:10 PM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Yes they can children, and what do you think this mans motavation was?
According to his attorney, he was trying to mentally stimulate his students. Teachers are supposed to do that. What they are not supposed to do is be inflammatory in the process.
This is a matter for the school to resolve, not the courts.
quote:
Would you feel the same if Muslim beliefs were bashed?
. . . or Hindu, or Jew, etc.: yes, absolutely.
The teacher was accused of violating the same clause that is the baseboard for the separation of church and state. Unless it can be proved that this man acted in some capacity to cross that line, the charge is wrong.
I find it ironic that they used the same amendment against him that also safeguards freedom of speech.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/20/2008 4:56:28 AM
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Annie64
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
The same ones if the teacher had spoken the whole time about how the Bible is the Word of God and that without Jesus you are dead in your sin, etc etc etc....The same ones...
If the teacher had done this, it would not be a violation of anyone's civil liberties, but rather an abuse of his position in a federally funded facility wherein separation of church and state applies.
And how is what the teacher actually did not "abusing his position in a federally funded facility wherein separation of church and state applies?" Whether or not the student's civil liberties were violated, the teacher had no right to do what he did. If he wasn't trying to dissuade his students from believing in Jesus, what was he doing? Maybe he really thought he was stimulating intellectual discussion, but he's had a lot more time than the students to think about the issues. How is a high school student who believes because his parents who love him told him so and hasn't yet formulated a lot of arguments to support his faith going to be able to hold his own in such a discussion? Granted, the student eventually needs to look at these issues and come to faith or lack of it on his own, but in order to have the discussion, he needs to know what he believes and why before he can do it, and that's not typical of teenagers. The result will be doubt and confusion on the part of the student, not discussion. Surely an educator who works with kids would know this.
I have teenagers at home. My fifteen-year-old daughter is a believer. I think she'd be hard-pressed to articulate why. I'm not even sure my eighteen-year-old son could do it, and certainly my 13-year-old couldn't. That may be our fault. Or maybe they could do better than I think. Or maybe they would come to the conclusion I did years ago when I was taught--I remember the day I was taught--that all dinosaurs were dead before there were any humans on earth. At that time I knew nothing about young earth or old earth creationism. All I knew was what the Bible said, and I'd never been taught that the day of Genesis 1 might be referring to an age (which to this day I do not believe. I think a day is a day, but that's another discussion). I remember thinking that if what my teachers said was true, then all dinosaurs would have had to have been dead by the afternoon of the sixth day (later I realized that this would have been on the same day that they were created). The conclusion I came to at that time was that I didn't know how or why, but my teachers were wrong. It would come out when we got to heaven. There was certainly nothing intellectual in that conclusion, and if a teacher like this guy had tried to engage me in a discussion about it I would have come out on the short end of the stick.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks ... - 4/20/2008 10:10:12 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Annie64
And how is what the teacher actually did not "abusing his position in a federally funded facility wherein separation of church and state applies?"
The answer is right in the quotation at the start of your post. He did not proselytize either for or against religion.
quote:
Whether or not the student's civil liberties were violated, the teacher had no right to do what he did.
This is incorrect. The man had every right to say what he said. The very amendment that he is being charged of violating also safeguards freedom of speech. He committed no crime.
However, it is also the school's right and duty to censure him for being inflammatory.
quote:
If he wasn't trying to dissuade his students from believing in Jesus, what was he doing?
. . . Drawing questionable conclusions by generalizing geographical and demographical facts.
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Granted, the student eventually needs to look at these issues and come to faith or lack of it on his own
Exactly. This is a mirror reflection of the Scopes "Monkey Trial" wherein that teacher was charged with not teaching religion. Today, we operate with the understanding that students are responsible for their own religious beliefs, not the state.
quote:
but in order to have the discussion, he needs to know what he believes and why before he can do it, and that's not typical of teenagers. The result will be doubt and confusion on the part of the student, not discussion.
I don't think that the teacher was trying to have a discussion; he was lecturing. He was attempting to infuse their cognition by saying, "Think about this . . ."
quote:
Surely an educator who works with kids would know this.
A truly professional educator knows to not cross the line and get on a personal soapbox. But, alas, teachers are human, too.
quote:
There was certainly nothing intellectual in that conclusion, and if a teacher like this guy had tried to engage me in a discussion about it I would have come out on the short end of the stick.
There is a lot I could say here, but I will leave it at what I said before: the teacher was lecturing, not discussing.
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 4/20/2008 10:16:39 AM >
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