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[Poll]
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War in Iraq
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| We are in Iraq because of oil |
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| We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate |
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| We are in Iraq to protect Israel |
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| We are in Iraq to stop terrorists |
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| We are in Iraq for some other reason |
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Total Votes : 417
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(last vote on : 8/15/2008 1:19:12 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: War in Iraq - 4/9/2008 11:56:04 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3359
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Things are becoming more secure in Iraq. How do you just pull the troops out right away Rich. In yesterdays hearings with the General, facts proved it. Hillary and Obama were not saying anything about pulling the troops out right away, or time-lime. So different than the campaign trail. How are things worse for these people?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: War in Iraq - 4/9/2008 2:20:05 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3843
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Things are becoming more secure in Iraq. How do you just pull the troops out right away Rich. In yesterdays hearings with the General, facts proved it. Hillary and Obama were not saying anything about pulling the troops out right away, or time-lime. So different than the campaign trail. How are things worse for these people?
The hearings proved what???????????????????? Petraeus clearly stated the security situation was such that further troop reductions need to be delayed. Now, I don't advocate an immediate all-out withdrawal. We need to talk tough, pretend the Iraqis are getting a government that functions while we gradually reduce our forces. Then we sign some sham treaty with whatever parties need to be involved. Then we have only enough troops to guard the Green Zone. Then, in a few years, when the Iraqi government implodes, we bug out altogether and blame the Iraqis for not being able to fight for their freedom. We'll also have to blame Iran and Syria for supporting militias.
If this scenario sounds familiar, it has been done before.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: War in Iraq - 4/9/2008 3:19:58 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 908
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Petraeus clearly stated the security situation was such that further troop reductions need to be delayed.
...right, our military is at the mercy of the Iraqi's getting their act together. Year after year, hearing after hearing...the congressional committees are constantly told to wait another six months, another year....and on it goes.
Another point that really disturbs me is the POTUS hiding behind his General (and the military at large)....this Administration is the one who should be seated at the witness table...not the General. Iraq is and will continue to be a very complex political problem...a problem that our military can not solve.
As for the facts, it's clear the General and the Ambassador have no choice but to put the best spin he can (they do, after all, follow the orders and policies of the President).
Interesting analysis of the charts presented in the hearings here
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RE: War in Iraq - 4/9/2008 3:46:12 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1797
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What I can't help but wonder is did Saddam kill 600,000 or so Iraqi's? Did over 2 million Iraqi's lose their homes and become homeless?
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/9/2008 3:49:08 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1304
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
Some of the things you say are true, but the acid vats are gone, Saddam used, the terror aginst his own people. He has been dead one year as of December 30th. I have watched documentries about his prisons, his sons, and his brutality. He was evil along with the bath party. He also gassed babies with nerve gas, who clans of Kurds. These people have to feel, more safe than they did. The electric and water will come, things are improving, slow, but sure. I believe that, and to just pull out and leave these people high and dry, would be cruel.
I agree Saddam was terrible, but we turned our back on what he did for 20 years, as long as he was fighting Iran for us.
Have you ever sat in 120 degree temps with no fans? How far is fresh water from where people live? Thru how many sucide bombers do they got to walk?
I also believe to leave in a rush would spell trouble. But America gotta back up what she talk. Get the water running, I don't see problems with the oil pumps.
I also believe since we are there. Get the best man for the job.
John Mccain. Obama ? he look like Hillary could actually beat him in a physical fight.
GWB probaly has never had a fight in his life. Too spoiled, maybe wrestling with his brothers.
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/9/2008 3:54:37 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 841
Joined: 9/6/2007
From: SW Missouri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I agree Saddam was terrible, but we turned our back on what he did for 20 years, as long as he was fighting Iran for us.
Isn't that sad!!! I remember when we had our first war with him. My husband was still in the service then. My husband and many others in that base he was stationed at were so mad that we did not finish. Sadly many many citizens of Iraq paid too. That was horrible seeing those pictures of the dead women and children. THe ones of the mothers clinging to their infants broke my heart.
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<-------- She really loves her daddy!
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/9/2008 3:55:10 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3843
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
GWB probaly has never had a fight in his life. Too spoiled, maybe wrestling with his brothers.
No he wrestled with distilled spirits and lost.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/9/2008 4:29:14 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1304
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
GWB probaly has never had a fight in his life. Too spoiled, maybe wrestling with his brothers.
No he wrestled with distilled spirits and lost.
LOL! LOL!
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: War in Iraq - 4/10/2008 9:05:47 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1777
Joined: 5/4/2005
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Because I've been busy I have not had enough time to post my "Recent News and Developments from the Iraqi quagmire posts," but I have been doing my best to read news there.
I will say two things now.
One: as I said a few times, regular Iraqi troops and cops surrendered to the Mahdi Army; some refused to fight; some JOINED the Mahdi Army. What does this portend for "Iraqis stand up, Americans stand down?"
Two: mortar shells hit the Green Zone. 5 years later, how much does the US or its allies really control in Baghdad? (Note: on Sunday a similar attack killed 2 American soldiers who were jogging)
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/10/2008 9:05:55 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3359
Joined: 4/11/2005
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That is funny about Hillary beating up Obama too. I was thinking about obamas skinny little ankles, and Hilllary's rather hefty ankles. The problem if we pull out right away, Iran will take overtake, a not yet, stable Iraq. Then Isreal will be in danger and big trouble, because the whole middle east is in trouble, things will just fall apart. The other thing is what happens to the United States? We would look like cowards. That may seem unimportant, but, with some of these people in the Middle Eastern countries, it is all about posturing, and they are, just, forgive me (nuts). If the middle eastern culture think they have a victory they will take it to the limit.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/10/2008 9:13:25 AM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/10/2008 10:27:10 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1777
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
That is funny about Hillary beating up Obama too. I was thinking about obamas skinny little ankles, and Hilllary's rather hefty ankles. The problem if we pull out right away, Iran will take overtake, a not yet, stable Iraq. Then Isreal will be in danger and big trouble, because the whole middle east is in trouble, things will just fall apart. The other thing is what happens to the United States? We would look like cowards. That may seem unimportant, but, with some of these people in the Middle Eastern countries, it is all about posturing, and they are, just, forgive me (nuts). If the middle eastern culture think they have a victory they will take it to the limit.
My dear sister, Lightshineon, just how much do you really know about "middle eastern culture" (if there is a one, singular culture that is identical in every country of the Middle East?
How much Arabic do you speak? How much Arab/Persian history have you studied? How many people who were born and raised in the Middle East have you known intimately, and how many of these have told you detailed stories of what it's like over there? How can you say they are "nuts?"
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/10/2008 1:08:04 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3359
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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some and enough.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
That is funny about Hillary beating up Obama too. I was thinking about obamas skinny little ankles, and Hilllary's rather hefty ankles. The problem if we pull out right away, Iran will take overtake, a not yet, stable Iraq. Then Isreal will be in danger and big trouble, because the whole middle east is in trouble, things will just fall apart. The other thing is what happens to the United States? We would look like cowards. That may seem unimportant, but, with some of these people in the Middle Eastern countries, it is all about posturing, and they are, just, forgive me (nuts). If the middle eastern culture think they have a victory they will take it to the limit.
My dear sister, Lightshineon, just how much do you really know about "middle eastern culture" (if there is a one, singular culture that is identical in every country of the Middle East?
How much Arabic do you speak? How much Arab/Persian history have you studied? How many people who were born and raised in the Middle East have you known intimately, and how many of these have told you detailed stories of what it's like over there? How can you say they are "nuts?"
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/10/2008 1:52:37 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2004
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
How can you say they are "nuts?"
Maybe not nuts, but only slightly more civilized than animals. All you have to do is read virtuall yany news story that comes out of that region to understand that it is a backwards, barbaric culture....
_____________________________
"A knight must not complain of his wounds, though his bowels be dropping out."
- Don Qixote, MAN OF LA MANCHA
Tafkam
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/10/2008 4:47:25 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3359
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Sorry about the " Nuts " comment, though people call the president worse. I could not honestly think of a better word. Maybe, someone could help of me think of a nicer word. That is the one that comes to mind, as they show on video streams how they want to take over the world., and Videos showing how brutal beheading, honor killings so on and so on.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
How can you say they are "nuts?"
Maybe not nuts, but only slightly more civilized than animals. All you have to do is read virtuall yany news story that comes out of that region to understand that it is a backwards, barbaric culture....
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/10/2008 5:15:20 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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I ran across the following blog post the other day. Talk about hitting the nail on the head.
What Every American Should Know About the Middle East
Most in the United States don’t know much about the Middle East or the people that live there. This lack of knowledge hurts our ability to understand world events and, consequently, our ability to hold intelligent opinions about those events.
For example, frighteningly few know the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims, and most think the words “Arab” and “Muslim” are pretty much interchangeable. They aren’t. So here’s a very brief primer aimed at raising the level of knowledge about the region to an absolute minimum.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/10/2008 10:08:55 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1797
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I ran across the following blog post the other day. Talk about hitting the nail on the head.
What Every American Should Know About the Middle East
Most in the United States don’t know much about the Middle East or the people that live there. This lack of knowledge hurts our ability to understand world events and, consequently, our ability to hold intelligent opinions about those events.
For example, frighteningly few know the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims, and most think the words “Arab” and “Muslim” are pretty much interchangeable. They aren’t. So here’s a very brief primer aimed at raising the level of knowledge about the region to an absolute minimum.
This was how they figured out who was overqualified to head the CPA in Iraq. Zalmay knew all of this so at the last minute he was removed from any major leadership position in favor of the completely ignorant Bremer who understood none of that.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/10/2008 10:52:28 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/26/2006
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Yeah, the more you know about ME relations, the more you become overqualified, because any cases for war quickly get shot down.
Whoops, sorry, you know too much about Sunni/Shi'a relations, we can't send you to Iraq. You'll help get the troops out sooner.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/11/2008 2:58:52 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1304
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
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quote:
That is funny about Hillary beating up Obama too. I was thinking about obamas skinny little ankles, and Hilllary's rather hefty ankles.
Hillary look mean enough too!
quote:
The problem if we pull out right away, Iran will take overtake, a not yet, stable Iraq. Then Isreal will be in danger and big trouble, because the whole middle east is in trouble, things will just fall apart.
I know! Iran gonna be a big big problem. I feel sorry for Israel! If any one gets a nuke! I hate to think about it. And I KNOW God got Israel back. It says that in the Word.
quote:
The other thing is what happens to the United States? We would look like cowards. That may seem unimportant, but, with some of these people in the Middle Eastern countries, it is all about posturing, and they are, just, forgive me (nuts). If the middle eastern culture think they have a victory they will take it to the limit.
What Moslems? The middle eastern culture. I don't agree with them either. I read some of the Q'ran. I read the history of Moslems. I see them everyday. Mn has a huge pop. of Moslems. They own most of these high-priced stores in my 'hood. I found out one thing. Do you believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Nope. Ok. I'm still respectful, stand my ground. This is a FREE country. Be Moslem.
Who doesnt want to win a fight?
quote:
Maybe not nuts, but only slightly more civilized than animals. All you have to do is read virtuall yany news story that comes out of that region to understand that it is a backwards, barbaric culture..
Actually Barbarians was first used to describe Europeans.
Their not backwards in history , the Bible describes that history.
There are Christians in the Middle East. Noew they are being persecuted!!
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/12/2008 9:49:54 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3359
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Found another mass grave in Iraq today, I think the second this week. If no WMDS, why the mass graves. These peoples lives have to be better, Thank God.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/12/2008 11:27:39 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1777
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Found another mass grave in Iraq today, I think the second this week. If no WMDS, why the mass graves. These peoples lives have to be better, Thank God.
My dear sister Lightshineon:
You said "these people's lives have to be better, thank God" - you clearly think that these mass graves are from Saddam Hussein's time, and that the discovery of another "mass grave" means another grave w/ victims of Saddam's regime was found.
WRONG.
This mass grave is one of the "... Mass graves have been turning up with increasing frequency as American and Iraqi military operations have cleared former militant strongholds, allowing troops to step up patrols in previous no-go zones."
This article from the Associated Press states that "confessions from Shiite militiamen led Saturday to the discovery of 15 more bodies dumped in mass graves south of Baghdad."
In other words: this is VERY RECENT, not from Saddam's time. These are mass graves whose corpses are recently killed - victims of the sectarian violence that followed the invasion.
And THIS article from The International Herald Tribune states the corpses were there for "more than a year," but it gives absolutely no indication the victims were killed by Saddam Hussein's government. I believe this article is speaking about the same grave spoken of in the first link I gave you.
Therefore, the fact is that mass graves have become reality in POST-Saddam Iraq. I do not see how this means "these people's lives" are "better."
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/13/2008 10:25:33 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3359
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Bro. Rich, if the gaves are over a year who knows. Do you honestly think people were better off during the rule of Saddam Hussien? There were many mass graves found, when he was in rule. Chemical Ali, his kin folk, gassed thousands of kurds, killed whole groups of people on a whim, put people in prisons in horrid conditions. They were opressed under his reign. Do you deny that? Why are you so opposed to this war? Thinks are geting better Iraq more secure, and a tyrant was taken down. You might notice in the photo, my husband is a military officer. He is actually after many years high ranking, he went through ROTC many years ago, and was commisioned at 19. If he fights he fights, that is what he trained for, he is trained to be a killing machine, that is what the military is about. Why do you think the military is for? Why did the troops decide this as a career? How do you like the freedom you have to express yourself the military provides?
I am asking again in respect why you think, the war is so bad, Why do you think the United States should not be there? How can you say life under Saddam was better for the people of Iraq? Was it better for the Jews under Hitler? Have you served in the military? You do not have to say, I am not putting you down if you have not, just wondering why you think you can get in the soliders heads, knowing what they think about being in that region. I know I can not, I am not a member of the armed forces, and have not been, but, I do believe in the United States and it leaders. May God bless you with all grace this week.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/13/2008 12:43:54 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1777
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Bro. Rich, if the gaves are over a year who knows.
This is speculation on you part. The authorities stated they are relatively recent. You WISH to assume and to conclude they are from Saddam's time. But, the American press has stated several times in the past few years that several bodies were found at once on a number of occasions. Drill holes, torture signs, bullet shots to the head. This is violence occurring in Iraq NOW; occurring in Iraq since the FALL of Saddam.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineonDo you honestly think people were better off during the rule of Saddam Hussien?
Yes, I do, because:
- electricity and running water were available; they are not now
- children were able to go to school normally; now many cannot due to violence
- universities were open and youths were free to study; now many dare not due to violence, and academic staff have been threatened and some killed
- women were free to wear western clothing (such as jeans) and to work; now many are forced to stay home and there are Islamic militants who harass and even beat women who are in public not wearing full Islamic garb
- public violence was relatively low compared to now; muggings, kidnappings, rape were far lower than what they are now. Research the work of Baghdad morgues: activity all shot up after Saddam was taken out.
- Iraqi Christians were free to worship and to live out their faith in Jesus Christ; now many have been issued threats by Islamic militants to either convert to Islam or to flee their homes (this is a point I have made here several times since 2007 and if you wish I will link the original post I made on this; it is a post with several links proving this)
- Iraq was by and large a secular society; now there are Islamic militants with influence in the country
- Iraq was a weak (due to sanctions) but ultimately singular state; now it is a fractured country broken by internal strife (3 - yes, THREE - civil wars going on at once)
- out of a population of 25 million, 4 million have become refugees: 2 million fled to neighboring Arab states such as Egypt and Jordan, where they live in poverty and where they have few options for schooling their kids, feeding their families, and earning a decent wage; 2 million are refugees inside their own country. They have all fled the horrible, hellish violence generated AFTER THE FALL OF SADDAM HUSSEIN.
(For perspective: if this were happening in America, which has a population of 300 million, it would be 48 million Americans fleeing sectarian violence. That's nearly 6 times the entire population of New York City having fled their homes.)
I can go on and on and on, but I think this is a basic list proving why lives for Iraqis are by and large far worse than they were since George W. Bush's coalition of the willing initiated the invasion that created the ongoing, no-end-in-sight quagmire known as "the war in Iraq" (but which I call Iraq War II).
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/13/2008 12:46:52 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1777
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I am asking again in respect why you think, the war is so bad, Why do you think the United States should not be there? How can you say life under Saddam was better for the people of Iraq? Was it better for the Jews under Hitler? Have you served in the military? You do not have to say, I am not putting you down if you have not, just wondering why you think you can get in the soliders heads, knowing what they think about being in that region. I know I can not, I am not a member of the armed forces, and have not been, but, I do believe in the United States and it leaders. May God bless you with all grace this week.
In fairness to you as you wrote all this, even though I don't think all of it is relevant:
1. Thank your husband for his service. But I've said nothing about him or his comrades.
2. Please refrain from mentioning Jews under Hitler. Comparisons to the Nazi Holocaust are rather shrill and frankly quite inappropriate to the situation in Iraq.
3. No I have not served in the armed forces of the United States of America.
4. I believe in America; I do not, however, have much faith in George W. Bush or in his administration, as the officials who led us into war have demonstrated time and time again a penchant for unbelievable incompetence. (Douglas Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, L. Paul Bremer III, and others.)
God bless you today, you and your entire family, this week and others.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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