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[Poll]
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War in Iraq
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| We are in Iraq because of oil |
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| We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate |
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| We are in Iraq to protect Israel |
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| We are in Iraq to stop terrorists |
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| We are in Iraq for some other reason |
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Total Votes : 397
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(last vote on : 5/16/2008 9:07:25 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 1:39:30 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
It's always amusing when people who would otherwise villify the UN use the violation of UN resolutions as a basis for war.
That's a very good point...
John
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RE: Back to Iraq news: violence continues - 4/18/2008 8:10:21 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10913
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
Rabbit droppings on that path....
Well, what about all of that Sarin- where is it? Or is that a rabbit trail because it doesn't exist? Or how about telling us about the mobile WMD labs? Or is that a rabbit trail to because those didn't exist?
There is the fact that the foremost reason given was the in-your-face refusal to comply with the UN resolutions. That is the main road that was followed and now to ignore that is nothing more than a rabbit trail.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
It's always amusing when people who would otherwise villify the UN use the violation of UN resolutions as a basis for war.
That's a very good point...
John
Now if y'all want to urge your elected representatives to fund an action against Israel, that is your right as a US citizen.
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 8:44:02 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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NO political solution in sight in Iraq, folks...
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 3:12:38 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10913
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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I put this here in the Iraq thread because in context it makes sense to do so.
And whose business is it?
Look for the link to the interview with Edelman.
quote:
Interviewer: But the incident nevertheless seriously damaged America's standing. What to say to Polish people after the death of several more of our soldiers?
Edelman: But they died fighting for their freedom. How many thousands of people died in the Warsaw Uprising [in 1944]?
Interviewer: But those people then were fighting for their country.
Edelman: They were fighting for their world. Free and democratic. Just like those who died during the martial law [in Poland in 1981-3]. Did they die only for Poland? No. They died for the freedom of the whole Europe, for the freedom of all those enslaved behind the Iron Curtain.
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 4:00:48 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1421
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Edelman: But they died fighting for their freedom. How many thousands of people died in the Warsaw Uprising [in 1944]?
Stamper show me examples where the Iraqi's actually do > diddly/squat for their freedom. They have ran one military operation themselves which they thoroughly and royally botched up a couple weeks ago.
If Iraqi's had a quarter of the heart and determination of the Poles and if they had any leaders with the drive, knowledge and determination that the Polish leaders have we would have been out of Iraq before the '06 election and Congress wouldn't be run by dems.
Instead we got incompetence in overabundance in Washington and we successful exported that to Baghdad.
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 4:03:17 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
They have ran one military operation themselves which they thoroughly and royally botched up a couple weeks ago.
That's the offensive PM Nouri al-Maliki launched against the Mahdi Army of Moqtada al-Sadr, but which saw many Iraqi forces refuse to fight, and some even surrendered and MUTINIED to the side of the Mahdi Army.
< Message edited by RichLP -- 4/18/2008 4:13:40 PM >
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 4:23:05 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10913
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
Edelman: But they died fighting for their freedom. How many thousands of people died in the Warsaw Uprising [in 1944]?
Stamper show me examples where the Iraqi's actually do > diddly/squat for their freedom. They have ran one military operation themselves which they thoroughly and royally botched up a couple weeks ago.
If Iraqi's had a quarter of the heart and determination of the Poles and if they had any leaders with the drive, knowledge and determination that the Polish leaders have we would have been out of Iraq before the '06 election and Congress wouldn't be run by dems.
Instead we got incompetence in overabundance in Washington and we successful exported that to Baghdad.
Perhaps the Iraqis are the new French...
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 4:40:51 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1421
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Perhaps the Iraqis are the new French...
Back in the day when we were fighting England for our independence we sent people to Europe- France, Spain, Holland to ask for help in our war. No one helped us because they didn't believe we could carry on an extended fight with England. Well, we were determined and in 1777 after losing the invasion of Canada and New York City we fought them around Albany New York and we flung them back to Saratoga where the British surrendered there troops.
Then something amazing happened. France saw that we actually could fight and that they could invest in us and help stretch out even more their English adversaries. Then came money, Lafayette, troops and the French Navy bottling up Yorktown. Then we won. No one gave us anything we had to impress the world by showing it that we were determined to fight and that we could fight.
So in Iraq what happened? We came over there and just tried to give them everything on a silver platter. "Here you go you didn't earn this, you didn't do anything for it, just be nice." Well it hasn't worked yet has it? We've been in Iraq now for over 5 years and I don't know that we're any closer now then we ever were. 4 years and 2 days is all it took for us to win our first battle to earn our independence with the help of France.
Well here's the moral of the story: One nation the people had to earn their democracy. Another nation people got their democracy at the mailbox in the form of a check and some food stamps. Guess which country was successful and guess which country is totally helpless and uncapable of accomplishing anything on its own?
After 5 years we were handling the British just fine with help from France and we were about 16 months from finishing the job. After 5 years in Iraq we've accomplished ? Just wondering if we have.
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 4:53:54 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10913
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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Something happened in the late 30's and 40's when Hitler crossed over into France. I thought you'd have got the connection from the interview.
My mistake.
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 7:14:53 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3305
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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I think it is hard for the Iraq people, freedom is a concept that is foreign to them? How do you explain it? It is something we as Americans are born with, it is part of our culture and make-up. Not so for these people, under Saddam Hussien they were opressed, and learned freedom was obtained by killing anyone who opposed you.
I am sure when slaves in the United States had a hardtime learning to be free, when it happened, think about it. They did not use violence, but, I am sure the mindset was hard to change. Prisoners, who have been incarcerated for many years, will often go back to prison on purpose, because the mindset of captivity is still with them. Give them some time, education, and support and most important prayer, for our military, and the mindset of the Iraqs.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/18/2008 7:33:45 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1421
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I think it is hard for the Iraq people, freedom is a concept that is foreign to them?
I used to think that but more in terms of a western mindset to a middle eastern mindset. What you have said is definitely some food for thought I can think of some examples that go along with what you have said.
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/19/2008 2:55:41 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 394
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
It's always amusing when people who would otherwise villify the UN use the violation of UN resolutions as a basis for war.
That's a very good point...
John
Exactly. The same people who want the U.S. out of the U.N. are perfectly willing to justify invading another sovereign nation, depose its government, and replace it with a puppet regime all for that country's leader's failure to comply with the resolutions of the same organization that we don't want to comply with!
Any excuse in a storm . . .
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/19/2008 3:14:45 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 394
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
I have seen in many nations where they want to be free and the people fight for that freedom. I don't see it in Iraq. I honestly don't. They wanted to be free of Saddam but they haven't convinced me they want to be free.
rlj, the situation is more like this:
If we use our own American history as an example, we could say that we freed the Indians from the dictatorships of England, France, and Spain, but they didn't appreciate their freedom.
That's because they didn't ask for their "freedom." The oppression and fighting still continued long after they got their disenfranchised "freedom," and then years later had democracy crammed down their throats within their "sovereign" tribal governements in the 1930s, just like we've done with Iraq today.
Or when African Americans got "freed" from slavery only to be further oppressed, disnfranchised, and terrorized by the same people who used to own them. What really changed? What was left for them to truly appreciate?
Wars do not erase the past nor guarantee the future for anyone. The Iraqis are just as unstable in their "freedom" as they were in their oppression under Hussein. As soon as Uncle Sam lifts his thumb off of Iraq, civil war is almost certain.
What have we really given them?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 12:26:19 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3305
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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A chance, at freedom. What did Saddam offer? Gassing, acid vats, rape, and torture chambers?
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
I have seen in many nations where they want to be free and the people fight for that freedom. I don't see it in Iraq. I honestly don't. They wanted to be free of Saddam but they haven't convinced me they want to be free.
rlj, the situation is more like this:
If we use our own American history as an example, we could say that we freed the Indians from the dictatorships of England, France, and Spain, but they didn't appreciate their freedom.
That's because they didn't ask for their "freedom." The oppression and fighting still continued long after they got their disenfranchised "freedom," and then years later had democracy crammed down their throats within their "sovereign" tribal governements in the 1930s, just like we've done with Iraq today.
Or when African Americans got "freed" from slavery only to be further oppressed, disnfranchised, and terrorized by the same people who used to own them. What really changed? What was left for them to truly appreciate?
Wars do not erase the past nor guarantee the future for anyone. The Iraqis are just as unstable in their "freedom" as they were in their oppression under Hussein. As soon as Uncle Sam lifts his thumb off of Iraq, civil war is almost certain.
What have we really given them?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Back to Iraq news: violence continues - 4/20/2008 3:09:54 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
There is the fact that the foremost reason given was the in-your-face refusal to comply with the UN resolutions. That is the main road that was followed and now to ignore that is nothing more than a rabbit trail.
The gave a host of reasons to cover their rear....
quote:
Now if y'all want to urge your elected representatives to fund an action against Israel, that is your right as a US citizen.
I wish my elected representatives would rid the US of the UN...
John
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 3:19:12 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
A chance, at freedom. What did Saddam offer? Gassing, acid vats, rape, and torture chambers?
In all honesty is the United States all the better in regards to atrocities against it's own people? Without question this country under the guides of freedom allowed the murder and touture of more unborn than Sadam ever dreamed of killing... What morale high ground are we pretending to operate from???
John
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 3:22:22 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I think it is hard for the Iraq people, freedom is a concept that is foreign to them? How do you explain it? It is something we as Americans are born with, it is part of our culture and make-up. Not so for these people, under Saddam Hussien they were opressed, and learned freedom was obtained by killing anyone who opposed you.
I am sure when slaves in the United States had a hardtime learning to be free, when it happened, think about it. They did not use violence, but, I am sure the mindset was hard to change. Prisoners, who have been incarcerated for many years, will often go back to prison on purpose, because the mindset of captivity is still with them. Give them some time, education, and support and most important prayer, for our military, and the mindset of the Iraqs.
Freedom in Iraq... Funny... Never happen and you can bet when we do pull out the level of Islamic extremism will be higher then ever before, where before is was mild at it's worst in Iraq... It's really funny when you consider the President of the United States believes Islam is a religion of peace...lol 
John
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 5:59:30 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2164
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I think it is hard for the Iraq people, freedom is a concept that is foreign to them? How do you explain it? It is something we as Americans are born with, it is part of our culture and make-up. Not so for these people, under Saddam Hussien they were opressed, and learned freedom was obtained by killing anyone who opposed you.
I am sure when slaves in the United States had a hardtime learning to be free, when it happened, think about it. They did not use violence, but, I am sure the mindset was hard to change. Prisoners, who have been incarcerated for many years, will often go back to prison on purpose, because the mindset of captivity is still with them. Give them some time, education, and support and most important prayer, for our military, and the mindset of the Iraqs.
Freedom in Iraq... Funny... Never happen and you can bet when we do pull out the level of Islamic extremism will be higher then ever before, where before is was mild at it's worst in Iraq... It's really funny when you consider the President of the United States believes Islam is a religion of peace...lol
John
What Islamic extremism in Iraq before the war?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 10:32:29 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 394
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
A chance, at freedom. What did Saddam offer? Gassing, acid vats, rape, and torture chambers?
Hussein gave Iraq one thing that we have failed to give them: a stable government. While his blatant disregard for human rights was egregious, at least the people did not live in daily occupation by a foreign power, fear of becoming collateral damage within the crossfire of factional guerilla warfare, and inevitable civil war.
In other words, they are an occupied people whose situation is still being forced upon them, even if more benevolently. It still isn't really freedom.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 1:17:51 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I think it is hard for the Iraq people, freedom is a concept that is foreign to them? How do you explain it? It is something we as Americans are born with, it is part of our culture and make-up. Not so for these people, under Saddam Hussien they were opressed, and learned freedom was obtained by killing anyone who opposed you.
I am sure when slaves in the United States had a hardtime learning to be free, when it happened, think about it. They did not use violence, but, I am sure the mindset was hard to change. Prisoners, who have been incarcerated for many years, will often go back to prison on purpose, because the mindset of captivity is still with them. Give them some time, education, and support and most important prayer, for our military, and the mindset of the Iraqs.
Freedom in Iraq... Funny... Never happen and you can bet when we do pull out the level of Islamic extremism will be higher then ever before, where before is was mild at it's worst in Iraq... It's really funny when you consider the President of the United States believes Islam is a religion of peace...lol
John
What Islamic extremism in Iraq before the war?
Before it was mild? You mean NON-EXISTENT. Saddam Hussein was hated by Islamic extremists because he persecuted them mercilessly.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 1:21:57 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Hussein gave Iraq one thing that we have failed to give them: a stable government. While his blatant disregard for human rights was egregious, at least the people did not live in daily occupation by a foreign power, fear of becoming collateral damage within the crossfire of factional guerilla warfare, and inevitable civil war.
In other words, they are an occupied people whose situation is still being forced upon them, even if more benevolently. It still isn't really freedom.
Hussein violated human rights, but it's not as if he sat on a high throne issuing directives to kill 100 today, 150 tomorrow, 205 next week just for the fun of it. His actions against certain Iraqis were certainly horrible, but they were politically motivated - and they are not uncommon in history. Any reading of the histories of many countries' histories in the past 60 or 70 years will show that many rulers persecuted their own people for political reasons.
I've said here before and I'll repeat that Iraq was one of the more modern and advanced nations in the Middle East, with a decent standard of living, electricity, running water, sewage... in short, all the very basic necessities a country needs. Iraqis may not have all been able to afford BMWs and 62" plasma TVs (even if they had existed back then) but they were by and large able to live decent normal lives by American standards: go shopping, go to school, go to work, educate your children, send them to colleges, buy them computers... now girls are beaten if they don't wear Islamic garb and women are too scared to work. 4 million driven from their homes to avoid death out of a population of 25 million.
Not even in the worst moments of Saddam's regime did these evils happen.
Therefore, I continue to await an answer from the pro-war folks here of as to how the invasion of Iraq and its aftermath made Iraqis' lives better off.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 1:24:01 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
In other words, they are an occupied people whose situation is still being forced upon them, even if more benevolently. It still isn't really freedom.
ANd it is because they are under a foreign occupation that some of them will continue to resist and to fight US troops, even if the average US soldier is a kind-hearted young man who wishes only the best for the Iraqis. Sad indeed.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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