RE: Tough question (Full Version)

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abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/16/2008 8:42:55 PM)

From the womb to out of the womb. There are scriptures that suggest that God knew us before we left the womb. Sorry if that wasn't clear.



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/16/2008 11:37:43 PM)

quote:

I'm doing no shifting. I believe I'm responsible for my choices. That doesn't change the fact that, IF God has perfect knowledge of the future, then whatever it is that I'm going to choose to do is the only thing that I will choose to do.


More blame shifting is all you're doing. And what follows is quite nonsensical. So, simply because God knows the future perfectly, you can't change your mind? How many times a day do you change your mind about trivial things?

If everything was pre-determined just because God knows the end from the begining, there would be no choices. Once you made a decision, you could not reverse it. But that is not true to experience.

I have heard this naive argument before from seemingly intelligent people. But there is absolutely no connection between you making your choices and God knowing your choices in advance. How many times does Satan influence your choices? God knows that too, and He allows it. But you are not bound to be influenced by Satan, and neither are you bound to do anything else.

What it boils doing to is that you enjoy shifting blame and then use words like voluntarist and involuntarist to cover it up. Then it would be better to blame Satan fro all your poor "involuntarist" choices.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 12:33:01 AM)

Hello Abraxas:

I believe the scriptures are clear about hell and who goes there.

Hell is not a choice that men make, its a destination God sends people too. Its a place of punishment, wicked men dont chose punishment.
Men are deceived about hell, they figure they have made better plans than the next guy, that they have figured out how to beat the odds, or they simply believe it away, meaning they just do the ostrich thing and poof hell is gone.

Gods wisdom and understanding are past finding out. But what we dont want to do is dishonor God by telling Him that He doesnt send anyone to hell for punishment, "we send ourselves because we didnt chose properly". That is simply false to the scripture. God destroys in Hell, God sends to hell, God punishes in hell, God warns of hell. Man cannot go to hell anymore so than he can go to heaven. Man has no power to navigate the spiritual realms, he has no power to cross from one to another. Man has only temporal power while in this body. Once anyone got a glimpse of hells front door, no one would enter. They would re-chose another route. But thats not the case, man cannot change his destination because God is SENDING him to that place, not he himself. To say a man sends himself is only figurative at best.

Since hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, we know this, that God prepared a place for Satan, just like he prepares a place for the saints, those many mansions, God prepared a place for the fallen angels. The abode of hell was designed for punishment of demonic/fallen angels. Mankind who was created for everlasting dwelling with God will now ( many of them)enter the domain of fallen angels complete with a resurrected body to dwell there everlastingly.
Since sin, the devil, hell, heaven and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ are all a part of Gods great plan to glorify himself through His creation, punishment of fallen angels and men are apart of that glory. They are examples of Gods wrath, testimonies to Gods justice and judgment, creations of God that exalted themselves in their puny minds above God and all that God gave them. But God has the real word, God has the final word on the destinies of men.

What bakes most Christians is that God is not asking them whom He should save, whom He will save or asking permission even to save those He calls his own. God has sovereign power and right to do with his creation as he wills. No one goes to hell unworthily. Listening to some Christians you would think that their moral scale is greater than God's. Their judgment is more fair and more lenient than God's. Their mercy is greater and more benevolent than God's.
Why? Because they believe that God cannot chose whom He will save or damn because it would be unfair to condemn to hell, free willing, good folks who dont deserve hell.

The reality of the mindset that you will encounter here is simply...
God cant ... because I thinks its unfair.
God cant ... because some pygmy didnt hear
God cant ... because we have free will.

There is only one that really has free will and thats God. But to listen to the theologies of this bunch you would think God was bound and man was free.
Were the sinners but God cant chose...
Were the blinded God haters but God wont overide my freedom
Were the ones default destined to hell, but God is unfair to determine anyones destiny.

This generation is so proud, we tell God "Hey Im not going to heaven unless I am perfectly satisfied I have made the right decision and you cant stop me without being a dictator".

Pride about hell, pride about heaven, pride about sin, pride about mercy and justice and judgment.....what a complete and utter joke on us...and everyone who believes we send ourselves to any place God created for his own purposes.

John



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 1:09:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

More blame shifting is all you're doing. And what follows is quite nonsensical. So, simply because God knows the future perfectly, you can't change your mind? How many times a day do you change your mind about trivial things?


I don't recall saying that I couldn't change my mind. Can I change my mind in a way that God didn't foresee? Every choice I make is already known to a God with perfect knowledge of the future. If so, I can't make any choice, or change my mind, in any way BESIDES in the way that God has ALWAYS known I would do. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

quote:

If everything was pre-determined just because God knows the end from the begining, there would be no choices. Once you made a decision, you could not reverse it. But that is not true to experience.


Wrong. There could be choices, there could be reversing of decisions, but they all would be foreknown by a God with perfect knowledge of the future. There couldn't be choices or reversing of decisions outside of what is already known, and was known from before we existed.

quote:

I have heard this naive argument before from seemingly intelligent people. But there is absolutely no connection between you making your choices and God knowing your choices in advance. How many times does Satan influence your choices? God knows that too, and He allows it. But you are not bound to be influenced by Satan, and neither are you bound to do anything else.

What it boils doing to is that you enjoy shifting blame and then use words like voluntarist and involuntarist to cover it up. Then it would be better to blame Satan fro all your poor "involuntarist" choices.


I already said I believe I'm responsible for my choices. Why don't you quit attacking a strawman and look at what I'm saying. I'm simply following the idea of a God with perfect future knowledge to its logical conclusion.

Can you refute that I cannot make a choice that God was unaware of?

Can you refute that God could hypothetically have told each and every one of us exactly what our long list of choices would be?

Like I said before, I'll let you decide what that entails for free will. Where belief is concerned, on what basis should a person "choose" to believe something? Fear? Desire?



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 1:15:04 AM)

Gloryandgrace, thank you for those thoughts.

As I said before, I don't believe that my beliefs are completely under my conscious control. But if they were, can you suggest on what basis I might 'choose' to believe in the God as you have described it?

Side note, but I'm being serious--Is the threat of eternal Hell part of the "good news"?



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 1:24:58 AM)

quote:

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.


What's "so hard to understand" is the relevancy. We all know and believe that God knows everything there is to know about anything in this universe. So what?

quote:

There couldn't be choices or reversing of decisions outside of what is already known, and was known from before we existed.


Again, so what?

quote:

Can you refute that I cannot make a choice that God was unaware of?


No. But so what?

quote:

Can you refute that God could hypothetically have told each and every one of us exactly what our long list of choices would be?


No. But so what?

quote:

I'll let you decide what that entails for free will.


What it entials for free will is that God's perfect knowledge does not prevent you from making choices freely at any time, as long as you understand that there are consequences to all decisions, good or bad.

quote:

Where belief is concerned, on what basis should a person "choose" to believe something? Fear? Desire?


Neither. The basis should be obedience to God, obedience to His Word, and obedience to the Gospel.



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 7:28:23 AM)

Ezra, it's so refreshing to see you actually addressing my comments!

The relevance is this: If God knew perfectly that you, or I, would end up in Heaven, then we are guaranteed to end up there. If He knew perfectly that we would end up in Hell, we're guaranteed to end up there. That WE don't know is where we should say, so what? We simply can do nothing else except whatever it is that God perfectly knows we will do. No use trying to fight it!

This is also irrelevant: "What it entials for free will is that God's perfect knowledge does not prevent you from making choices freely at any time, as long as you understand that there are consequences to all decisions, good or bad." Because you and I are already guaranteed to make the choices we will make. God's perfect knowledge of the future DOES prevent either one of us from making ANY choice other than the ones God knows we will make. So sit back, and relax. [;)]

quote:


quote:


Where belief is concerned, on what basis should a person "choose" to believe something? Fear? Desire?


Neither. The basis should be obedience to God, obedience to His Word, and obedience to the Gospel.


In other words, one should "choose" to believe in God/Christ out of obedience to God, His Word, and the Gospel.... If one is to choose to believe something, it stands to reason that they don't yet believe it. So how can they use obedience to the thing they don't yet believe in as a basis for choosing to believe in it?



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 9:54:36 AM)

quote:

So how can they use obedience to the thing they don't yet believe in as a basis for choosing to believe in it?


Since you have more than enough evidence to believe, your unbelief is a choice which you have made in the face of available evidence. Therefore you can also repent of your unbelief if you so choose.

Christ provided sufficient evidence of who He was to the Jews of His day. Yet they chose not to believe. He has provided you too with sufficient evidence, and you have chosen not to believe nor obey the Gospel. God's foreknowledge does not exempt man's responsibility.



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 10:13:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

Since you have more than enough evidence to believe, your unbelief is a choice which you have made in the face of available evidence.


This is only an assertion that I doubt you can back up with facts. Let me tell you about me--I truly want to believe what is true. I do my best to learn and remain open so my conclusions will be as informed as I can get them to be. Your suggestion that I "choose" not to believe the "obvious" is ridiculous. Anyone can use the very same language you have used here to support their opinions in the face of opposing views. It's lazy and not good form.

quote:

Christ provided sufficient evidence of who He was to the Jews of His day. Yet they chose not to believe.


Again, just an assertion.

quote:

He has provided you too with sufficient evidence, and you have chosen not to believe nor obey the Gospel.


I have chosen no such thing, and I have to point out the obvious subjectivity of your assertion.

quote:

God's foreknowledge does not exempt man's responsibility.


The plain and simple truth if we presume God's perfect future knowledge, however, is that whatever it is that God foresees me doing, that is exactly what I will do. Tell me I'm wrong! How that affects the issue of responsibility I'll leave for you to wring your hands over.



JimboFletch -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 11:48:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
The plain and simple truth if we presume God's perfect future knowledge, however, is that whatever it is that God foresees me doing, that is exactly what I will do. Tell me I'm wrong! How that affects the issue of responsibility I'll leave for you to wring your hands over.

I recently watched Casablanca again. At the last moment, Rick makes Ilsa board the plane to Lisbon with her husband, telling her that she would regret it if she stayed. "Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life."

I had seen the movie before and knew ahead of time it would end that way. Because I knew exactly what Rick would do and say, would you say that it was my responsibility that the movie ended that way?



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 8:40:52 PM)

Hi JimboFletch,

Like Ezra, you're responding to what you think my comments entail regarding responsibility. I'm trying not to go into that. But tell me if something in this conclusion is incorrect:

If we presume God's perfect future knowledge, whatever it is that God foresees me doing, that is exactly what I will do.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 10:27:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
If we presume God's perfect future knowledge, whatever it is that God foresees me doing, that is exactly what I will do.


Okay. This makes sense to me. Christians, is it not supposed to make sense?

I know I'm not the brightest crayon in the box. [sm=shakinghead.gif]

I don't blame God that I've fallen short of His glory. But I recognize that God could set it all up however He desires. Why shouldn't He? He is the Potter.



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 11:03:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
If we presume God's perfect future knowledge, whatever it is that God foresees me doing, that is exactly what I will do.


Okay. This makes sense to me. Christians, is it not supposed to make sense?


Because this is being used by Abraxas to shift responsibility and to excuse himself from making the right decisions, it is totally irrelevant. It's like saying "Each time I look in the mirror, I see me". So what? Isn't that obvious?



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/17/2008 11:08:37 PM)

quote:

This is only an assertion that I doubt you can back up with facts.


Here are the facts:
1. You are communicating on a Christian forum.
2. This website has numerous Bibles and bible translations easily accessible. The Gospel is in the Bible.
3. It also has numerous other sources for hearing and reading the Gospel.
4. You have therefore seen the evidence, probably not just once, but numerous times.
5. Therefore you cannot deny that factually you have examined the evidence.
6. That you are in denial is an entirely different issue.



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 12:21:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
If we presume God's perfect future knowledge, whatever it is that God foresees me doing, that is exactly what I will do.


Okay. This makes sense to me. Christians, is it not supposed to make sense?


Because this is being used by Abraxas to shift responsibility and to excuse himself from making the right decisions, it is totally irrelevant. It's like saying "Each time I look in the mirror, I see me". So what? Isn't that obvious?


I've already said twice that I hold myself accountable for my choices. But I do find it interesting that you insist on interpreting my conclusion as a shift of responsibility. Is that what you think it does?



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 12:24:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

This is only an assertion that I doubt you can back up with facts.


Here are the facts:
1. You are communicating on a Christian forum.
2. This website has numerous Bibles and bible translations easily accessible. The Gospel is in the Bible.
3. It also has numerous other sources for hearing and reading the Gospel.
4. You have therefore seen the evidence, probably not just once, but numerous times.
5. Therefore you cannot deny that factually you have examined the evidence.
6. That you are in denial is an entirely different issue.


#6 is not a fact, it's your opinion. The remaining five facts do not support your assertion that I "chose" to disbelieve what YOU consider to be truthful.

Since your first go at my question was painfully circular, I'm going to give you another chance. How do you complete the following sentence?

I choose to believe the Gospel because _______________.



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 12:31:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
If we presume God's perfect future knowledge, whatever it is that God foresees me doing, that is exactly what I will do.


Okay. This makes sense to me. Christians, is it not supposed to make sense?

I know I'm not the brightest crayon in the box. [sm=shakinghead.gif]

I don't blame God that I've fallen short of His glory. But I recognize that God could set it all up however He desires. Why shouldn't He? He is the Potter.


It makes sense if we presume God has perfect knowledge of the future. This is just something I've thought my way into and I'm still deciding what it means. So far I'm not playing the blame game--that's all Ezra--but it does paint a very fatalistic picture. Maybe I'll make the right choices, maybe I won't. I hope I do, but in the above scenario I only have one path before me--the exact string of choices that God foresaw from the very first verse in Genesis.



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 1:09:14 AM)

quote:

Since your first go at my question was painfully circular, I'm going to give you another chance. How do you complete the following sentence?

I choose to believe the Gospel because _______________.


I choose to believe the Gospel because God the Holy Spirit has convinced me about Christ, and what He has done for me, and also convicted me that I am a sinner in need of the Savior.



meerkat -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 1:11:53 AM)

Abraxas,

I can relate to your questioning.

I have been doing a lot of it. I believe that God does have a plan that he devised and as he has said in the scriptures he will do all of his will. He is the potter and it is not up to the clay to dispute over what he will make of the clay. However we are responsible for the decisions that we make with the evidence that is put in front of us. There is a lot of inequality in the world, deceipt, lies, propaganda and indoctrination and the decisions that we make can be clouded by all of those things.

There is a simplicity in the gospel which is in adam all die - jesus came and died on the cross and was resurrected to redeem fallen man. Believe and you will be saved.

I think the 1st step is believing then you need to trust the Holy Spirit to guide you, test the spirits by reading the sciptures and making sure that everything ties up with the context of the scriptures not just individual passages.

Can I ask if you are a believer?



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 3:56:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

Since your first go at my question was painfully circular, I'm going to give you another chance. How do you complete the following sentence?

I choose to believe the Gospel because _______________.


I choose to believe the Gospel because God the Holy Spirit has convinced me about Christ, and what He has done for me, and also convicted me that I am a sinner in need of the Savior.


The Holy Spirit convinced you, and then you chose to believe? When I'm convinced of something, I don't need to choose to believe it, nor can I choose not to believe it.



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 4:08:32 AM)

Hi meerkat,

I have some very general deistic beliefs, but they're not very strong.

For me to agree that I shouldn't dispute over what the potter will do with the clay, I would first need to have a firm belief about what/who the potter is and what he intends with the clay. I'm not in that position, so what I'm doing is examining different claims. Someone might accuse me of "arguing with God" but I assure you that's not what I'm doing.

When I look through sites like this and see ongoing disputes about doctrine, such as Calvinism/Arminianism, Catholicism/Protestantism, etc., I don't see Christians disputing with the potter. It's just that not everyone agrees about who/what the potter is or what his intentions are.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 4:31:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
If we presume God's perfect future knowledge, whatever it is that God foresees me doing, that is exactly what I will do.


Okay. This makes sense to me. Christians, is it not supposed to make sense?


Because this is being used by Abraxas to shift responsibility and to excuse himself from making the right decisions, it is totally irrelevant. It's like saying "Each time I look in the mirror, I see me". So what? Isn't that obvious?


I'm not understanding your explanation. God knows what everyone will do. He has to know or He isn't omniscient. Abraxas will have to answer for his sins just like any unbeliever. An unbeliever's insistence that he isn't to blame doesn't change the punishment. God is awesome and certain people never believe that in this life. People I love very much aren't Christians. They may end up in hell and that makes me sad, but my being sad hasn't influenced them to become believers (so far).



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 9:40:30 AM)

What Ezra is doing is he's criticizing my line of reasoning by accusing me of attempting to shift blame away from myself for my choices. So he's attacking my motives, whereas the conclusions themselves he only says, "Yeah, so what?" Why so defensive? If a conclusion is accurate, then it's accurate. Are we not supposed to explore certain ideas because we don't like what the conclusions might entail?

I've said several times that I believe in personal responsibility, so I'm surprised no one has gone the other direction with me and asked if I believe God has perfect knowledge of the future.



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/18/2008 7:52:49 PM)

quote:

I've already said twice that I hold myself accountable for my choices. But I do find it interesting that you insist on interpreting my conclusion as a shift of responsibility. Is that what you think it does?


The person who takes full responsibility for their choices does not get fixated on God's foreknowledge of his choices. Therefore you must ask yourself why God's foreknowledge has to enter into the picture, unless you mistakenly think that foreknowledge = predeterminism. If that's the case, then discard that thought.

quote:

What Ezra is doing is he's criticizing my line of reasoning by accusing me of attempting to shift blame away from myself for my choices.


True. But your choices and God's foreknowledge are separate issues. Focus on one or the other.

quote:

So he's attacking my motives, whereas the conclusions themselves he only says, "Yeah, so what?"


Not "attacking" your motives, but pointing out the irrelevancy of bringing up God's "perfect knowledge of the future".

quote:

Are we not supposed to explore certain ideas because we don't like what the conclusions might entail?


Our goal should be truth, whether palatable or not.

quote:

I've said several times that I believe in personal responsibility, so I'm surprised no one has gone the other direction with me and asked if I believe God has perfect knowledge of the future.


Why ask about something that is self-evident? Your fundamental premise is that God perfectly knows the end from the beginning. We all agree.

The questions you should be asking yourself is, Since I have all the evidence I need, why don't I make a decision based on the evidence?
Why am I afraid to make a decision? Why do I use God's foreknowledge to avoid making decisions?



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/19/2008 12:57:30 AM)

In closing I'm going to recap my conclusion.

If God has perfect knowledge of the future, then our future is GUARANTEED to happen that way. There is nothing we could possibly choose or do other than what is already known to happen.

You seem to be arguing that we should pretend that that isn't the case. That is actually what I do, but since I don't believe that God has perfect knowledge of the future (I don't have a firm belief either way), I can do that without having a nagging "But..." following me around.

So, I choose to live my life as though my future is not set in stone. If I'm wrong, then things will end up as they were foreseen from the start, 100% guaranteed. If I'm right, then I have a shot at truly determining my own fate. Kind of a Pascal's Wager spinoff.

It's been an interesting discussion, and it has helped me formulate my thoughts. Thanks everyone.



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