RE: Tough question (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Christian Doctrine



Message

Gloryandgrace -> RE: Tough question (4/19/2008 7:59:02 PM)

quote:

As I said before, I don't believe that my beliefs are completely under my conscious control. But if they were, can you suggest on what basis I might 'choose' to believe in the God as you have described it?

Side note, but I'm being serious--Is the threat of eternal Hell part of the "good news"?


Hello Abraxas:

One choses to believe in Christ just as the bible says, One must believe, repent and trust just as the bible says. So goes the portion of mans responsibility.

What I have always stipulated is that mans responsibility to act upon those commands is the problem. God has issued the command and man is dead in sins and therefore in need of God to aid him in going so far as repenting, believing, trusting, calling upon God and so on. Man is dead spiritually so unless God himself intervenes man will simply miss the point every single time.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

And another verse

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Our believing is contingent upon God the Father drawing us to Christ and God the Father giving us to Christ. This is why I so vehemently resist the idea of any man merely chosing God or Christ or to believe, repent or anything based soley upon his own will to do so.
We are never initiators of our salvation. God is the initiator. God is the one who calls, the one who aids us in sending the law to convict, the Spirit to reprove, the word to instruct, the preacher to proclaim. God goes before us and prepares us, all this work that must be done so that dead men might live again.
It boils down to election. Whether you want to believe it or not, God acts upon the hearts of some and not others. Gods chosing us directly enables us to chose him in response-ability.

Aside for the plenteous testimony of scripture, look into the world and see. Mulititudes of millions will die and have died without any knowledge of Christ, the bible, or a gospel message.
If they have not heard, how shall they believe? If they cannot believe in whom they have not heard, will they obtain the salvation and benefits of the promises that come only through a faith and belief in Christ? No, they wont. They will die, not as Christ rejectors but simply as sinners who lived out their lives with only the knowledge of the temporal earthly situations and conditions they had. They will die as sinners, law breakers, sons of Adam and be condemned for the sins which they had commited. God will judge them as deserving stripes, not as many as some, but they will still fail to obtain the grace of God through Christ.

Will they go to hell? Yes they will. Not as Christ rejectors, but as sinners following the pagan traditions of their fathers handed down to them. Does God know this? Yes He does know this and is right now judging those who have died this moment without Christ because they have never heard the gospel in order to believe the gospel.

Hell is being filled with those whom God has not chosen for his own reasons. He has not designed to save them because for His reasons alone He did not purpose for them to know the gospel, to respond to the gospel to obtain the salvation that Christ gives through the gospel.

Therefore it is not man that "choses" to send himself to hell. This is nonsense. Those mulititudes enter hell because God left them in their natural sinful rebellious condition. God didnt have to go to the expense of a miracle to keep them from salvation, Christ, the gospel, belief, faith, trust or hope in Christ. Why? Because God only need leave them in their own inward enmity of heart that is alienated from God by wicked works.

The miracle is not that man can believe in a god, its a miracle man can believe in the true God. Its not a miracle that man can devise a religion, its a miracle when a man can obey the truth that runs cross-grained to all he knows or has believed.

As to the second part of the question, is hell necessary for faith? I believe it is. Why? Because men do not believe in Christ when they are secure in their self-deceptions. Hell is the reality that self-deceptions have consequences. Hell is the reality that men are obligated to find out more than their traditions handed down by their fathers. Hell must exist because Gods law exists and Gods holiness exists. Justice as we understand it from scripture cannot exist apart from God and his law being vindicated when it is broken and forsaken. Hell exists because God will not acquit the guilty. The knowledge of Hell is a conscience stabbing truth that curbs a mans wickedness from expanding to such proportions he will stop at nothing but entire universal destruction. Where ever you find the punishment of hell absent you find men will never curb their violence and wickedness. Hell and its form punishment is the only adaquate justice for men.

Does Hell save anyone? Hell is not a reverse savior, Hell is the stark reality that man has no hope apart from God intervening in his life. Hell is the scriptural truth and blackest backdrop against which the glorious gospel of Christ is introduced to men so that they may flee from the wrath to come, place their hope upon Christ who alone has invaded this wicked world and brought light and immortality through the preaching of his name.

John



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/19/2008 9:47:42 PM)

Gloryandgrace, it was interesting to read your take on it. But what do you think about these verses?

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;


1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.


1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;


1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Tough question (4/20/2008 11:16:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

Gloryandgrace, it was interesting to read your take on it. But what do you think about these verses?

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;


1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.


1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;


1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Hello Abraxas:

This is a great text and amplifies what I was saying earlier.

This is an exhortation that we as Christians should be praying in all its various forms for
1. Kings,
2 those in authority

so that...results we may live a peaceable and quiet life in all godliness and honesty.

This is a good thing in the sight of God.
Because God wills all kinds of men, kings, those in authority, gentiles such as yourself Timothy and jews, all kinds races, both sexes, old and young be saved.

Gods salvation is not a potential salvation, its not a wish from God that men might toss him a bone and believe upon him. Gods salvation is real, actual and planned.

I understand youre wanting an explanation of why I believe in limited atonement based on the timothy text, well its easy. Paul is telling Timothy that God wants despot kings, harsh cruel roman rulers, the gentile leaders to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth just as you have obtained.
We are learning from Paul, (not that God wills every single person who will ever be born to be saved) but that God wills all kinds of men to be saved. This is the powerful revelation that we see in Eph 2, that God has saved both Jew and Gentile and made them one in Christ. So that "all men" as in all the various kinds of men found through out the world might know Christ.

We forget, in the not so far distant past from when Paul was speaking the gentiles were not the subjects of world wide preaching, the offering of salvation, the invited partakers of covenant with God. They were pagans and left for the most part to die in their ignorance and blindness to the truth of God and his word.

Therefore to get to the point, Paul is not saying 'every single person ever' God wills to be saved but is saying God has expanded the offer of salvation even to gentile kings and rulers and therefore the necessity of prayer for them.

We know from many texts that God is not going to save the vessels of wrath, the ones ordained to condemnation and so on.
Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

I do not want to get into that scripture nullifying kind of insistance upon my doctrine. I am saying that God will save mulititudes, but not every single person because they were not chosen. But I can say easily and biblically that God does will all men to be saved with no equivocation, understanding of course that it is God that initiates the salvation offered and the salvation received by any man.
I can say God wills all men to be saved and I can say as the bible says, God has made his vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. I can say it because its truth and non-contradictory.
Its only contradictory to those who want to make "all" in in 1 tim 2:4 go beyond the clear texts written that set the boundries to the 'all' that God will save.

The stumbling stone as I said before is election. Men dont like election because it takes them out of the drivers seat, it removes them from trusting that they are the final judge and arbitar of their lives.

As I stated before, the testimony of Gods actual workings are seen every day. Today there is some hardened sinner, he has been prayed for, preached to, and entreated with kindness and will die a Christ rejector. Why didnt the gospel penetrate? Why didnt God answer the prayers of the saints? Why didnt God save the man knowing the man could not come unless God the Father opened his eyes to see Jesus Christ for who He is? The only scriptural reason we have beyond the secret things of God is 'he was not elected'. Today another man will die never hearing of Christ, never having the gospel given to him. If we are to believe God wills every man to be saved, Why would God not answer the prayers of his saints for the one man or even send the word and the missionary to the other? God had in his power to effect the salvation of both men. God knew that they both needed him to intervene in their lives. God knew that they were blinded ignorant men dead in sins and could not save themselves. God knew this and gave no salvation to either of those men, men by the way that actually died today. Simply because God had not chosen them.

Yes I hear it coming down the poster halls "man has free will". But it wasnt free enough to see the truth of Jesus Christ, free enough to break free from sin and the blindness of heart that the deceitfulness of sin has enshrouded the man in. This is the trump card that certain believers use to clear God's name when these things go bad. But we dont need the error of free will to clear Gods name. God has done nothing wrong to not chose one person or to grant another grace.
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?


Abraxas I believe God takes responsibility for these things, we cannot.

John



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/20/2008 11:41:01 AM)

I'm getting two different interpretations from you, regarding the part, "...who will have all men to be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth."

the first is that it means, "...who will have all (kinds of) men to be saved."

the other is that it means "...who wills all men (who WILL be saved) to be saved."

I don't think the language, at least in this English translation, allows for either one of those. Especially in light of the first verse, where Paul exhorts that prayers, supplications, etc. "be made for all men". Only in the next verse are kings and those in authority mentioned.

For the second interpretation, you need to tweak the wording, and then you only end up with an ambiguous phrase that might support your interpretation.

So it still seems that in these verses at least, Paul is saying that God will have all men to be saved.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Tough question (4/20/2008 9:22:48 PM)

quote:

the first is that it means, "...who will have all (kinds of) men to be saved."

the other is that it means "...who wills all men (who WILL be saved) to be saved."

I don't think the language, at least in this English translation, allows for either one of those. Especially in light of the first verse, where Paul exhorts that prayers, supplications, etc. "be made for all men". Only in the next verse are kings and those in authority mentioned.

For the second interpretation, you need to tweak the wording, and then you only end up with an ambiguous phrase that might support your interpretation.

So it still seems that in these verses at least, Paul is saying that God will have all men to be saved.


Hello Abraxas: As I said, Election is the stumbling stone; the God that elects is not a deity that some folks want around, what say you?

You can let the word "all" be used in the farthest point it can reach and all you get is biblical contradiction....or maybe interpretive contradiction. Its your choice....or maybe its up to God to reveal that to you.

The word "all" is limited by other scriptures.

All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.....But does that mean Jesus?
No it doesnt, so other scriptures limit all to "not every single person" but the vast majority of persons outside of Christ.

What is so difficult about "all" being restricted?

In my opinion "all" is not the problem, the problem is a God that elects!
Its a God that Choses
Its a God that makes plans that dont include our silly ideas on fairness.

Hell is going to be populated with people whom God didnt chose. That just makes some christians mad, it makes them angry.
Heaven is going to be populated with people whom God did chose. That makes the same christians happy, it makes them really happy.

That Abraxas is the extent of how we feel about 'all'. When it serves our purposes God is approved.

John



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Tough question (4/20/2008 9:42:50 PM)

quote:

So it still seems that in these verses at least, Paul is saying that God will have all men to be saved.


Abraxas: Which verse do you want to believe?

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Im sure youll say both....but do you really believe that?

The God that has vessels, not just clay which is a vessel in the making but a vessel ready made fit for destruction, a vessel made to display the wrath of God. This vessel will not be saved, it will not believe on Jesus just like the ones in times past that were vessels of wrath that were not saved.

The God that wills all men to be saved, all as in every single last person born. Or all as in all whom God has determined to save? Which interpretation will you place on it knowing that God will not save everyone and says so? Will you ignore the other verses or will you contrive an interpretation that fits your own personal scheme?

As I posted earlier the verse in Romans 9:22 you chose to believe 1 Tim 2:4 in opposition to the text in Romans....thats fine, believe as you will, but if you hold to that belief you hold to a contradiction. I say contradiction, not because the scriptures nullify one another or contradict one another but because you put weight upon "all" that it cannot support, therefore wont support your inclusiveness of every single person at all times.

John



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/21/2008 12:07:23 AM)

quote:

I say contradiction, not because the scriptures nullify one another or contradict one another but because you put weight upon "all" that it cannot support, therefore wont support your inclusiveness of every single person at all times.


Gloryandgrace:

That so-called "contradiction" is merely an imaginary contradiction. 1 Tim. 2:4 includes every single human being because Christ's atoning work was for each and every sinner.

1. Christ was the Lamb of God who took away the sin of "the world" (Jn. 1:29).

2. God so loved "the world" that He gave His only begotten Son (Jn. 3:16)

3. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of "the whole world" (1 Jn. 2:2), and there is no mistaking that!

4. The Gospel is to be preached to "every creature" (Mk. 16:15).

5. God now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and clearly there is no mistaking that!

6. God will have ALL MEN to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).

7. God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).

8. The Holy Spirit invites "whosoever will" to come and take of the Water of Life freely (Rev. 22:17 cf. Isaiah 55:1-3).

9. God invites "all the ends of the earth" to look unto Him and be saved (Isa. 45:22).

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever, that God desires the salvation of every man, woman, and child.

Therefore Rom. 9:22 must be interpreted in light of this clear truth. And what this passage reveals is that God allows those whom He knows will reject His grace and mercy to exist through his "much longsuffering" even though they will eventually experience His wrath. These are "the vessels of wrath".

This was true in the days of Noah where God waited for 120 years to see if any would repent. Only Noah and his family were spared out of all the inhabitants of this earth. These were "the vessels of mercy". The rest were "the vessels of wrath" but only because they would not repent.



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/21/2008 8:15:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace

quote:

So it still seems that in these verses at least, Paul is saying that God will have all men to be saved.


Abraxas: Which verse do you want to believe?

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Im sure youll say both....but do you really believe that?

The God that has vessels, not just clay which is a vessel in the making but a vessel ready made fit for destruction, a vessel made to display the wrath of God. This vessel will not be saved, it will not believe on Jesus just like the ones in times past that were vessels of wrath that were not saved.

The God that wills all men to be saved, all as in every single last person born. Or all as in all whom God has determined to save? Which interpretation will you place on it knowing that God will not save everyone and says so? Will you ignore the other verses or will you contrive an interpretation that fits your own personal scheme?

As I posted earlier the verse in Romans 9:22 you chose to believe 1 Tim 2:4 in opposition to the text in Romans....thats fine, believe as you will, but if you hold to that belief you hold to a contradiction. I say contradiction, not because the scriptures nullify one another or contradict one another but because you put weight upon "all" that it cannot support, therefore wont support your inclusiveness of every single person at all times.

John


Hi John,

It looks to me like there may be some ways to iron out the contradiction, but I'm not convinced about the means you have taken. I think there's enough in the Bible to make it very difficult, if not impossible, to adequately defend Universalism. However what you have done to the "God desires all men to be saved" verses is brutalize them gramatically.

In other words, you leave me wondering why the verses were translated the way they were, if you're right that they don't actually mean that. If someone said, "UPS ships all of England's packages", they would have a real time trying to convince people later that they were actually saying, "UPS ships all kinds of England's packages" or, "UPS ships all of England's packages that are sent by UPS".

As for Jesus not included in "all have sinned", it's a simple exception to understand, if we assume that the Bible is God's word to man--Jesus being God.

Another way I could imagine looking at the issue is that God desires something but is unable to achieve it. I know this puts a cloud on the idea of his omnipotence, but perhaps no more than the tired old heavy boulder question.

However if I throw the idea of God perfectly knowing the future, then I find I'm juggling too much. After all, what does it mean to say that God, who knows exactly which souls are hellbound and which will be saved, "Desires all men to be saved." It really turns it into a moot point.

Now from a more emotional standpoint, the argument you've put forth about a God who has created sentient beings and then simply doesn't choose to redeem certain ones from eternal Hell (and they don't have a chance), well it just sounds like a horrid guy.

abraxas



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Tough question (4/21/2008 10:26:46 PM)

Hello Ezra:

I dont dispute the world wide call.

I dont dispute the world wide every person entreaty to believe.

I dont dispute the fact that Gods nature is to redeem and forgive. Judgment and condemnation is his strange work.

What you wont get, from me or the bible is God saving everyone, or a statement he will save everyone, or a statement that he will offer everyone a chance to be saved.

The bible and the testimony of the world has God chosing whom he will save.
Today there were more who died never hearing the gospel. They went to hell.

The problem is not with me, its with a view that you have and its seems Abraxas as well, that God simply cannot do with His creation as he wants without displeasure from you or Abraxas.

Hell is being populated today by men and women that have died without having the opportunity to repent and believe upon Jesus.
If Jesus died for them, wouldnt you consider that a huge waste? I mean this is the Son of God, his blood and sacrifice are worth more that the world itself combined. Yet, it seems God determined to send no missionary, no bible, no testimony, no faith, No Holy Spirit to convict and bring them to the knowledge of the truth. If Jesus died for them, and God took no pains to bring bibles, preachers or even send the Holy Spirit to convince them of seeking Jesus in a miraculous way dont you think that is a bit strange?

The bible is full and I mean full of Gentiles, a great many of them called 'weapons of Gods wrath' useful in their destruction upon other men and for their own death as a picture of Gods wrath. Yet for some reason no dots are connected by you or Abraxas. They didnt hear the gospel, didnt even have a chance to know the law, or even believe the prophets, or hear about the messiah to come. What about them? Will they be in heaven? No, they will be in hell. a vast mulitude will be in hell.
A whole vast mulitude of gentiles pagan idolators destroyed for lack of knowledge, Israel following their same gods, hiding the truth of God himself. What shall you say to these?

God chose a people to himself, a chosen generation, a number of tribes, and even within these tribes, God selected those who he called Israel that were taken from Israel. So the same in Romans 11 God taking from the gentiles, a number of gentiles to be the people of God according to the election of grace.

What you have Ezra and Abraxas is a real problem with God. Not me. I have only stated that God will not save everyone nor has He intended to do so. The Apostle saying "God wills that all men repent and believe" is only to be taken generally and not specifically for every single person to be born. Im sorry if that stumbles you but its the truth.
That general call is the same as calling all to salvation at a gospel meeting. Not all will believe, but the general call is made, why? Because we dont know whom God will save, but we are faithful to offer the gospel to every man. God is the determiner of who will be saved, and who he will not save. You and I are not the determiners.

Instead of taking the scripture as a whole, you are taking pieces of it and forming your doctrines. Pieces that cannot support the weight of your interpretations.

You know God wont save everyone. So why pretend he is going to?
Since you know he wont save everyone, why act as if God fully intends to save everyone?
Well because of 1 Tim 2:4? Really, does that verse say that God will actually make the effort to save every man with a gospel presentation and with the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Will God make Jesus Christ known plainly for all to see?
Is that what you hope that verse means or what you want it to mean? The reality is it is a general call. Its to be taken as a general call. My interpretation of the text as I gave it to Abraxas is truth. God wills to save every kind or sort of person. God has not willed to save every single person otherwise there would be no necessity of preaching the gospel. It would be unnecessary. God will save them because he wills to save them. But we preach the gospel among the lost to recover whom God wants to save from among the lost. That is why we preach the gospel. Some will believe, some wont.

A larger question should be asked by yourself about what you believe. Do you believe when God wills someone to be saved that they will not be saved? Do you believe Gods will is simply a hope or desire? In some cases our commentators have taken this route and have said so much, that God really just wished or desired all men to be saved when in fact He knows He will not save the idolator and apostate, especially those who have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

I believe when God actually wills something he intends to bring about what He wants because it is part of His plan to glorify himself in that work.

I have answered fairly. I realize you dont agree, but I have answered fairly and specifically.

John



prophet -> RE: Tough question (4/21/2008 10:40:35 PM)

Abrxas

Seems to me like you are trying very hard to equate men to God in terms of foreknowledge

We are Creatures made by the Lord. The Lord knows everything from start to finish. That does not give His creatures the right to be like Him. In fact, that was the start of the down fall of man. To have knowledge of maybe everything and be as Him, as Satan suggested?

We are limited in abilities. God is not. Foreknowledge is His attribute, not ours. We have no right to that knowledge if He chooses not to reveal. He IS LORD

Shalom



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Tough question (4/21/2008 10:44:22 PM)

quote:

"Desires all men to be saved." It really turns it into a moot point.


Hi Abraxas:

The mootness...if there is such a word, is really the interpretation you have taken.

You must understand God knows whom he will save whom he will not save. This is already sealed in heaven, already within the secrets of God. Yet this is not a time to be hopeless or feeling like God is a 'horrid guy'.

This is what must be understood clearly. God is under no obligation to save anyone. He is under no obligation to give salvation as a gift to any man because all men are sinners and can lay no claim upon the gift of God.
Holding that truth securely in you hand, you then return to the gospel and say, "I thank God through Jesus Christ that I am a chosen vessel". I dont feel special because of something I have done, that is the nature of grace. I dont blame God for not chosing everyone because God owes salvation to no one.

I am thankful to my deepest part of my mind and heart that God showed mercy upon me. I dont look upon God as a horrid guy because He didnt chose someone I felt he should have. I dont have a right to call God into account, if you get anything from Rom 9 you should get that.

John



Ezra -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 1:17:50 AM)

Fallacy #1
quote:

You know God wont save everyone. So why pretend he is going to?


God will save everyone who will come to Him for salvation, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED" (Rom. 10:13).

Fallacy #2
quote:

Will God make Jesus Christ known plainly for all to see?

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared TO ALL MEN". (Tit.2:11).

Fallacy #3
quote:

God has not willed to save every single person otherwise there would be no necessity of preaching the gospel. It would be unnecessary.


"The Lord is...NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9). The Gospel is preached because sinners must believe and repent.

Fallacy #4
quote:

Do you believe when God wills someone to be saved that they will not be saved?

"But to Israel He saith, All day long have I stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people... Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Rom. 10:21; Acts 7:51).



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 1:19:10 AM)

As a non-believer looking around with interest at all the many many claims as to who/what God is, I guess I don't feel compelled to try to reconcile the claims you're putting forth with my own understanding of grammar, or of Goodness.

I'm also comfortable if I see what seems to be a contradiction in scripture. If I held as a fundamental assumption that the Bible contained no contradictions, maybe I would allow myself to tweak grammar as you have--or maybe not, maybe I'd try to find some other explanation. After all, your grammar brutality was shocking!

Edit: didn't mean to post yet... So, from my rather detatched POV, I recognize that you may be correct about God, and at the end of the day if that's how it is, then that'll be how it is, no arguing with an omnipotent being.

Yet in the meantime I don't believe it. My faith in God is all based on "ifs"--IF there is a God, and IF God is truly Good and Loving and Just, then I don't think I have anything to worry about as long as I'm sincere and earnest in my search/life. If you're right and I go to Hell, oh well. Will I be ashamed of myself? Should I have forced myself to believe what I found unbelievable, just in case? That, I would be ashamed of.

That's just how I sees it. Thanks for your thoughts, I can see that you're sincere in them and you've given them a lot of thought.

abraxas



prophet -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 1:33:18 AM)

Amazing grace! how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

'twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'tis grace hath brought me safe thus far
And grace will lead me home.

The lord has promised good to me
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing god's praise
Than when we've first begun.



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 1:36:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

Seems to me like you are trying very hard to equate men to God in terms of foreknowledge

We are Creatures made by the Lord. The Lord knows everything from start to finish. That does not give His creatures the right to be like Him. In fact, that was the start of the down fall of man. To have knowledge of maybe everything and be as Him, as Satan suggested?

We are limited in abilities. God is not. Foreknowledge is His attribute, not ours. We have no right to that knowledge if He chooses not to reveal. He IS LORD


Our knowing WHAT that future is is irrelevant to my point. Knowing that God knows it--therefore it is already mapped out, is relevant to my point.

Anyway I've been mulling more about this lately, and I have to admit I'm really battling with the whole determinism thing. Today is Tuesday, April 22. What if the world was zapped back to Tuesday, April 15, with everything exactly the same, and no one knew the world had been zapped back. The temperatures exactly the same, the clouds all in the same place, everyone with the very same state of minds, moods, etc. Would everything play out in exactly the same way the second time? If not, why not?

I dunno, it's a brain teaser, and so now I'm going to freely choose to end this post.



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 1:42:14 AM)

Ezra has a point there. To me, it still doesn't all add up (tossing in the omniscience thing, for example.) Maybe it's that God knows exactly who will be saved and who won't, but to get the ones who will be saved, he has to let on to everyone that they could be saved.

It's like a giant casino. Certain players at the slot machines, roulette wheel, and black jack tables are going to win. But to get all those people in there to play, they all have to think they have a chance. If the lists of future winners were posted on the door, only those people would go in, and then, well, they wouldn't all be winners, because the many other people were also necessary.



prophet -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 2:57:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

Our knowing WHAT that future is is irrelevant to my point. Knowing that God knows it--therefore it is already mapped out, is relevant to my point.

Anyway I've been mulling more about this lately, and I have to admit I'm really battling with the whole determinism thing. Today is Tuesday, April 22. What if the world was zapped back to Tuesday, April 15, with everything exactly the same, and no one knew the world had been zapped back. The temperatures exactly the same, the clouds all in the same place, everyone with the very same state of minds, moods, etc. Would everything play out in exactly the same way the second time? If not, why not?

I dunno, it's a brain teaser, and so now I'm going to freely choose to end this post.



The point is this : Its already 'mapped' out in the sense of God's foreknowledge. This is His ability and His nature. However, its is NOT 'mapped' out in the sense of Him making you going aganist your will. He does not 'control' your path to choosing.

However, my point is this: We are created beings. Why are you so agitated at your Creator knowing your future? he does not force you into anything.

Shalom



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 3:19:04 AM)

Hi prophet,

No agitation here. I suppose I could use more smilies...[;)]



prophet -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 3:44:48 AM)

Abraxas

Sorry, misinterpretation....hehe [8D]

i had a problem with this issue before. Howver, a teacher was able to put perspective into this foreknowledge and free will issue.

Firstly understand that the Lord is all knowing, from beginning to end. This is His nature, essence, what He is.

Then, He allows history to happen for good or bad even tho.........this is free will. Mankind is allowed to choose....altho He warns of consequences

If you try to mix them up, thats where your problem with God starts! You will start to ask

a) How come He lets this happens when He knows!

b) He knows it, so whats the use?

c) etc

hehe [:D]



abraxas -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 4:27:00 AM)

No worries -- it's a good reminder for me to take care in how I post my thoughts, so thanks.

And yeah, I'm thinking I'll chalk it up to intriguing paradox and move on. For now. [:D]



meerkat -> RE: Tough question (4/22/2008 7:32:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

As a non-believer looking around with interest at all the many many claims as to who/what God is, I guess I don't feel compelled to try to reconcile the claims you're putting forth with my own understanding of grammar, or of Goodness.

I'm also comfortable if I see what seems to be a contradiction in scripture. If I held as a fundamental assumption that the Bible contained no contradictions, maybe I would allow myself to tweak grammar as you have--or maybe not, maybe I'd try to find some other explanation. After all, your grammar brutality was shocking!

Edit: didn't mean to post yet... So, from my rather detatched POV, I recognize that you may be correct about God, and at the end of the day if that's how it is, then that'll be how it is, no arguing with an omnipotent being.

Yet in the meantime I don't believe it. My faith in God is all based on "ifs"--IF there is a God, and IF God is truly Good and Loving and Just, then I don't think I have anything to worry about as long as I'm sincere and earnest in my search/life. If you're right and I go to Hell, oh well. Will I be ashamed of myself? Should I have forced myself to believe what I found unbelievable, just in case? That, I would be ashamed of.

That's just how I sees it. Thanks for your thoughts, I can see that you're sincere in them and you've given them a lot of thought.

abraxas



Abraxas,

What you wrote there is how I tend to view things.

I am a believer, and I am searching for the truth, and also not wanting to be forced into believing in something out of fear of hell.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Prepared For the Devil and His Minions (4/22/2008 7:53:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

Now and then I see this sort of phrase used to describe Hell. The explanation is basically that God didn't intend Hell for man, but due to the Fall that is where mankind was in danger of going.

How does this square with the idea that God's knowledge of the future is perfect?

If you believe God's knowledge of the future is not perfect, I'd also appreciate reading your thoughts.

cheers, abraxas



Greetings,

How does this square with the idea that God's knowledge of the future is perfect?

He said that to Adam in the beginning, and look where we are today

But due to the Fall that is where mankind was in danger of going.

It is not as much a being in danger “of going”, it is permanent …that we are going.
The fall of Adam in the beginning expresses what the scriptures call blasphemy and it is reiterated by Moses as being an enmity to God and to the HS also as Jesus showed us, and such which will not be forgiven …because the HS is from God.
God will not share His glory with another, Meaning, His glory in the first person.


LG



abraxas -> RE: Prepared For the Devil and His Minions (4/22/2008 8:20:01 AM)

Hi meerkat,

I appreciate your sincerity. I know some will fear for my salvation given my current views, but I guess we're all condemned by someone's doctrine. I'm trying to stay open to things, and in my life, despite all the turbulence, I do experience what could be God, and that's what I seek after--the experiences that could be God. Thanks again for your thoughts on this thread.

LoyalGypsy,

I didn't fully understand your post, but unfortunately I'm in need of tapering off my discussion time, at least for a while. Perhaps in the near future. Thanks.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Prepared For the Devil and His Minions (4/22/2008 8:45:40 AM)

What if God didn't know how it would all turn out and was just waiting around to see how things would go? He couldn't promise us anything. :(



abraxas -> RE: Prepared For the Devil and His Minions (4/22/2008 10:43:25 AM)

I don't know, Ephesians, it does seem paradoxical either way. Maybe there's gray area. [&:]

Take care,

abraxas



Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI