Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (Full Version)

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Homegrownkids -> Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/12/2008 12:38:29 PM)

I am curious how Creation, Evolution, Young Earth vs Old Earth all fits into your homeschool? What do you teach?

I am interested because of some things I read on the internet. I realize that this has nothing to do with salvation. But, it is still all very interesting.



judii1 -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/12/2008 1:13:21 PM)

When we were homeschooling, we used lots of stuff from AIG.[:D]Answers in Genesis

We also used this book, the Seven C's of History from AIG. It's on sale for .49!!!![:D][:D]



shadowspring -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/12/2008 3:41:16 PM)

Somewhat related, Ben Stein's movie Expelled is coming out soon. It is a documentary on the persecution/ostrasization of scientists who reject random chance as the origin of life.

I can't wait to see it!

If you look for the trailer on YouTube (which I recommend) be forewarned- there is strong opposition to this move from many atheists and Darwinist. They have made their own shorts to villify Ben Stein and "refute" his assertion that strident opposition and ridicule await those scientists who reject Darwinian explanations for the origin of life.

[sm=aside.gif] They do this of course by outrageous and profane ridicule and insulting videos.

Ironic, no? [;)]

Some of it is very ugly and profane. Links to these shorts, along with the titles, will be visible on the web page. Just wanted to let folks know.



cynthia -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/12/2008 4:00:13 PM)

We teach young earth creation in our studies. I have read a lot on it and believe that the whole thing comes down to a worldview issue. We do not use materials that conflict with our Christian and young earth worldview, unless we are using them to specifically learn about other viewpoints while explaining them and showing our point of view in contrast. We use Apologia science, which is young earth creation perspective. As far as history, we take mostly a literature approach, so the age of the earth doesn't really become an issue. However, we have used MOH, which has a young earth perspective. We will be using MOH again next year for two of the children.



cynthia -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/12/2008 7:04:59 PM)

Very good answer, Rebecca.



zoebob -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/12/2008 7:06:37 PM)

Rebecca, I figured that's what Cynthia would have said about it and I agree with you both. I see she did post her agreement too.

ETA: I was just waiting for someone else to post it so I could agree. i knew someone else could explain it more eloquently than I could.



Homegrownkids -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/12/2008 7:51:36 PM)

quote:

at the same time teach our BELIEF of the creation THEORY along with the reasons from scripture


When you say you teach it as a theory, do you mean you just teach it as one thing people believe in and evolution is another... as in, pick and choose what you want to believe? Or, do you present it as more of a Fact because it is in God's Word.

I agree also, this has recently come up in my family. Not MY family, but MY siblings. I was shocked to find out that my sister agrees with Evolution. I was also surpised that my mother didn't know what to think about a young earth since she has always heard of an Old Earth. She was the one that told me that it didn't really matter what people believed. It was a website that I found that was putting down the young earth, and that people's salvation had nothing to do with whether they believed in a young or old earth. This was a christian webiste.

I just wanted to get other people's views. I actually agree with all of you.



creationtalk -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/13/2008 1:53:39 AM)

I teach science from a young earth perspective as well. I do teach other beliefs, but explain how world view affects the interpretation or story told about the facts...if you start with the world view that God does not exist and everything that exists in the natural world happened through chance random processes, then no matter how much evidence there is for design or a creator, you can NEVER interpret the facts that way. Conversely, if you start with the world view that God is the creator, he is trustworthy and he has told us in the Bible how he created the world, it is impossible to understand how someone could look at this world and fail to see all the evidence for design and a creator. Old earth creation and "theistic evolution" are attempts to compromise. Unfortunately compromise doesn't work well when the choices are mutually exclusive, as in the creation/evolution debate.

I also believe that this is a salvation issue. What one believes about evolution/creation does not determine if he is saved or not, but what one believes about evolution and creation DOES affect the likelihood that the person will recognize a need for salvation. I can also tell you that I have seen over and over a child raised in a Bible - creation believing church were no scientific justification for creation was provided, get to college learn about evolution, throw out belief in God along with their belief in creation because they were not well grounded. This is the church failing in the Biblical mandate to be prepared to give a reason for the faith that they have. Creation tells us why God has the right to make the rules about salvation. He made us. He set us free to make choices, but with in his parameters, and he gets to make the rules.

Most here know, but FYI those who don't, I have a Ph.D. in physics, MA in mathematics and graduate work equivalent to master's degrees in chemistry and astrophysics. I have done research in rocket fuels, astrophysics, and acoustic/sea floor interactions. I have studied the creation/evolution debate and evidence extensively.



gatorfan87 -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/14/2008 12:17:56 AM)

Homegrown,
We teach God created the earth. We teach some people believe in evolution, but point out the fallacies of that theory. We teach that the record of nature points to an old earth, as does a careful study of the 20+ various scriptures that refer to creation. We teach that God's Word and God's world are both revelations from God, and will not contradict each other when properly understood. We will not teach our children to judge or look down on others who hold a different view...even those who believe in evolution.

Using Konos as a framework, my kids have thoroughly enjoyed the studies which revolve around science. Two of their favorite studies were birds and rocks. The unit study on birds was supposed to be 1 - 2 weeks, but for us it ended up being 2 months! Each child had a bird journal to record sketches, behaviors, locations, etc. of the birds that we saw at various locations. We took photographs of each one, and would look them up in the Peterson's Field Guide for classification. With rocks they enjoyed collecting, classifying, and doing experiments with rocks and minerals. We finished up the study with a trip to the Shenandoah Caverns...a truly beautiful place. There is nothing like science to show your kids how awesome and amazing our Creator is!



timf -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/14/2008 9:01:12 AM)

Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution

Years ago I read a book called Many Infallible Proofs. It had a chapter that covered many of the different fields that have bearing on the subject of young earth / old earth. From a home school perspective, it might be helpful to look at each of the fields of science that are addressed and consider each in turn.

Consider the field of study that involves ice cores. As you research you find many interesting claims. However, when you dig deeper, you begin to find where science ends and propaganda begins. For example, there are limits as to how deep ice can get before the layers are essentially compressed into an indistinguishable mass. Conclusions drawn from ice layers above this compression point can reveal interesting observations about atmosphere, volcanic eruptions, and even possible meteor impacts. However statements regarding what might have happened further back require the application of "interpretive tools" (which are really guesses based on what the investigator is hoping to find).

These types of studies can help a young person understand more about the actual field of study as well as how to discern conclusions that have a basis on real evidence versus conclusions based on extrapolated "evidence".

I have not found any "scientific" reason to reject a young earth model and can see no reason in real science for not believing what the Bible says. In a broader way, you can also teach that most people hold the views they have based on what most people think rather than an analyisis of the facts for themselves. The home schooled child is more often less inclined towards this lemming approach to science, than he is more inclined towards the inquirer approach. He should be guided as to how to search for information and sift through baloney to find real science. In Germany in the 1930s the "science" of phrenology (reading bumps on the head) was accepted in universities because it supported the prevailing political philosophies of racial superiority. Just because "everyone" believed it, didn't make it true.

There are many fields of science that can be investigated that have bearing on the subject of young earth / old earth consider;

Depth of dust on the moon.
Mathematical models of population growth
radioactive dating of rocks
Mitochondrial DNA
Linguistics
Genetics (frequency of spontaneous, favorable, and inheritable mutations)
Decay of Earth's magnetic field
River (like the Nile) delta sediment deposit rate
Earth's rotation speed
Lack of transition animals in the fossil record

The flood of opinion against a young earth view is based more on political and popular opinion as opposed to real science. As young people begin to understand how universities operate and how grants and funding are obtained, a better understanding can be gained as to why so much baloney science is generated. It has not changed much since Germany in the 1930s.



Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/14/2008 2:10:09 PM)

ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE

To clarify, our Range of Doctrines is found by clicking HERE

It states as follows:
4. Creation, "young earth," Evolution:

Range of views:

Most Faith Community Network staff, monitors and users believe that God specifically and individually created each species and that Darwinian macro-evolution is a lie. Many believe creation took place over six 24 hour days between 10,000 and 100,000 years ago. However, many O/Es [including C. S. Lewis and most British evangelicals] believe that God may have used evolution as one facet of the creation of the universe, and that the word "day" in Genesis need not preclude creation taking place over billions of years. An increasing number of evangelicals believe that the Big Bang is a more powerful argument for a Christian view of Creation than it is for an atheistic or materialist view.

Unacceptable:

Forceful, sustained argument that science has completely disproved any involvement of God in creation and that evolution, if true, requires that God not exist or that human beings are nothing more than animals.


The intent of this thread is not for debating whether this is a salvational issue.

It is, however, intended to discuss how one presents the debate within one's homeschool endeavors.

If anyone wishes to discuss evolution vs. creationism OR how one's belief on creation impacts one's salvation then one is invited to proceed to either the Science and Origins folder or Salvation issues folder respectively.

Off-topic posts have been edited or removed.

Please do not reply to this message within the Community.

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cindybode -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/15/2008 12:54:33 AM)

We teach young earth, literal 7 day creation using mostly AIG materials.



cynthia -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/15/2008 11:34:43 AM)

When I first started looking into science and origin materials, I did find that some are not logical and give misleading or inaccurate information. One person to avoid like the plague is Kent Hovind. Some here might disagree with me, but I think his materials are worse than worthless. There are some very good materials that teach a young earth model with clarity. Some of them have been mentioned on here already. I like Ruth Beechick's books. She has written Genesis: Finding Our Roots, A Biblical Home Education, and Adam and His Kin, which all have both history and science. Apologia is written from a young earth perspective and is good as well. I don't think anything is perfect, but a lot of it is very good.



locomom -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/17/2008 9:14:16 AM)

As a young child we made sure my daughter understood that God created the world. We also made sure that she knew the Bible. We didn't really go into the debate between evolution and creation. She learned evolution early on because she received Zoobooks and other magazines based on the common scientific view. Although we used secular science books, none of them went into evolution in the elementary grades.

In high school, we still used secular science books. In general we found them to be more thorough in their science knowledge than the Christian science books. However when biology came along, my daughter started world history from the beginning, using a Christian history book. So my husband skipped to Chapter 28 in her biology book in order to examine both viewpoints together. They read several books having a creationist point of view and discussed the strengths and weaknesses of the arguments. They also read Darwin's Black Box which is a secular microbiologists discussion of the weaknesses and fallacies of evolution from his scientific point of view. They had a lot of fun, taking about a month to cover everything. Our goal was that she understand and examine the arguments made by both sides.

FYI-My husband was not particularly fond of Apologia science. He has a PhD in chemistry and did not feel the high school books were of a high enough level. He disagreed with them in some areas not related to evolution.



TMeeks -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/21/2008 2:42:48 PM)

The thing we always have to remember when dealing with origins is that a very few verses in the Bible cover a HUGE topic and these few chaptures leave out a lot of information. They are really meant to solidify the Lordship of God over all creation and set up the need for a saviour. Without Adam, we would have no need for Jesus.

Perhaps the best way to approach the full spectrum of thought from Creation to Darwinian is to treat them as 'Models'. The reason for looking at the issues from this perspective is that you can take the 'givens' and explore how the same information is treated by the two different models.

For instance, from a Christian perspective, the 'Sin' nature of man cannot be handled at all in the Evolution Model; but, it does fit into the Creation Model. The whole topic of the definition of Species and how they came about is fascinating when the models are compared. There are hurdles in Evolution that are never addressed in textbooks and popular TV programs. The whole dilemma of 'breeding pairs' is ignored by most pro-evolution textbooks. But, it would be a good topic in a homeschool environment. Of course it depends on the grade level.

Personally, I lean more to discovery of what is HERE because that is what is right in front of us and there is more than enough to learn from simple observation without extrapolating into either model. It's difficult for me to even contemplate random development when sitting in wonder viewing a georgeous beetle or pondering the vast complexity of the human mind. I think one of the reasons why evolutionists try so hard to force 'science' into a narrow evolutionist perspective is that most people, Christian or not, instinctively realize that life is too complext to have just 'happened'.



LMKH -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/27/2008 11:53:40 AM)

I dh is an evolutionist and I am a creationist. We both have college degrees with minors in math. I loved physics and astronomy and still do. My dh does better with the "fake/silicon world" of computer science. Fine.

But our fights can get nasty. He is a die hard evolutionist, big bang theorist. Thing is, he does not know much about it. He often tells the children about it.

I am armed with the facts. I have read books and use them. I show my children articles in the news that show how the big bang/die hard evolution theory cannot be right..but that scientists hold out as proof of evolution. They have seen books and such on evolution, where I go through and point out the fallacies in the arguments. I was once a die-hard evolutionist myself, so I can definitely see the errors.

In addition to all else, I think scientists must be extremely arrogant to think that in the year 2008, they have enough of all being figured out that they can tell us the origins of life..when they cannot even cure the common cold. I do not like arrogance.



shadowspring -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/28/2008 10:48:08 PM)

quote:

In addition to all else, I think scientists must be extremely arrogant to think that in the year 2008, they have enough of all being figured out that they can tell us the origins of life..when they cannot even cure the common cold. I do not like arrogance.


Totally agree! My own kids point that out as we read about Ptolemy and Copernicus and blood-letting and even the medicine cups of the Civil War era. [:'(]

Every generation of scientists are SO SURE they are right about everything! And so far, not a single one has been right about everything, and often they are so far wrong we mock and belittle them in later generations for their silly ideas.[sm=silly.gif]



Auben -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/29/2008 10:55:40 PM)

Hmm...its hard to explain how I broach this topic.

I believe scripture is accurate.
I believe our understanding of scripture can be fallible, especially when read in a second (Latin) or third (English) language from the original.
I find myself somewhat between the Young Earth and Evolutionary groups. I believe the world is old (OE) and has a new creation (YE). I'm open as to whether world as we know it came about in a literal 7 days or more generalized periods. I'm comfortable not knowing.

We talk about multiple facets of this. I'm very clear with my children that human beings can't know what happened at the beginning of Time. We can trust God (and thus His scripture) because of our experience with Him. We can learn about the world around us. We try to reconcile those two things. The world is a beautiful, complex, (and now) sinful place.

So, we study the creation (young earth) and we study some elements of evolution (dinosaurs, extinction etc). I haven't looked into outside sources much yet. I'm underwhelmed by most stuff I've seen and some of the Young Earth things have been scientifically inaccurate.



cynthia -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/29/2008 11:34:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auben
We can trust God (and thus His scripture) because of our experience with Him. We can learn about the world around us. We try to reconcile those two things. The world is a beautiful, complex, (and now) sinful place.

Excellent. I think this is the crux of the issue. God's word is truth. We know we can trust Him as we have seen this in our lives.



sen10tious -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/30/2008 8:56:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

It's difficult for me to even contemplate random development when sitting in wonder viewing a georgeous beetle or pondering the vast complexity of the human mind.


And I think that is exactly what God intended; and that is backed up in Romans 8.
No one starting from a point of childlike faith would ever come up with an evolution model. The evolution model is based within an already corrupted world, and therefore the data being used to support it is corrupted. Data (other than scripture) being used in any model is corrupted.

If we could observe original creation before the thorns and thistles of Genesis 3:18, then as you said, it would be "difficult to even contemplate" evolution. The first sign of “evolution” in the Bible is the bringing forth of thorns and thistles; and evolution is presented in the context of corruption as a direct result of the curse upon the ground; no randomness about it.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (4/30/2008 10:13:33 AM)

quote:

ETA: I was just waiting for someone else to post it so I could agree. i knew someone else could explain it more eloquently than I could.

lol...me too...so now I can say, YUP, that's what we teach too. I think we have sufficiently indoctrinated our kids pretty well so far [:D]...when they are watching a show on TV and they mention something about "billions of years ago"....they roll their eyes and exclaim that they don't believe that, they believe that back then only God existed....lol. Anyway, we started young, but so far we can tell that they are learning. If they question why some people say that, we just simply say that not everyone believes in the Bible, but we do...so we get our basis for the earth and how it came to be from God and the Bible. My hubby leaves this whole part up to me though...he was taught evolution his whole life, and still gets confused about what to believe and what is and isn't truth. He is slowly retraining his brain and relearning what God says about it all, but it is all still very confusing to him.



hillbillywoman -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (5/4/2008 5:37:29 PM)

Uh, Oh, Fritz, I posted before I read all the postings, so I did not see your post to not include anything about salvation and creation/evolution. Sorry!



Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (5/5/2008 2:02:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hillbillywoman

Uh, Oh, Fritz, I posted before I read all the postings, so I did not see your post to not include anything about salvation and creation/evolution. Sorry!

Better for YOU to delete the post than make ME have to do it.

When I do it it generates an offender report.

When YOU delete it it doesn't.



TMeeks -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (5/10/2008 11:45:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sen10tious

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

It's difficult for me to even contemplate random development when sitting in wonder viewing a georgeous beetle or pondering the vast complexity of the human mind.


And I think that is exactly what God intended; and that is backed up in Romans 8.
No one starting from a point of childlike faith would ever come up with an evolution model. The evolution model is based within an already corrupted world, and therefore the data being used to support it is corrupted. Data (other than scripture) being used in any model is corrupted.

If we could observe original creation before the thorns and thistles of Genesis 3:18, then as you said, it would be "difficult to even contemplate" evolution. The first sign of “evolution” in the Bible is the bringing forth of thorns and thistles; and evolution is presented in the context of corruption as a direct result of the curse upon the ground; no randomness about it.

Take a look at this photo of a tiny little Midge Fly taken by micro/macro photographer Charles Krebs. The complexity of the tiniest of God's creatures amazes me.



cynthia -> RE: Young Earth/Old Earth/Creation/Evolution (5/11/2008 1:08:53 AM)

That is amazing, Meeks.



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