Outer darkness vs hell (Full Version)

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jpapaj -> Outer darkness vs hell (4/13/2008 5:40:29 PM)

I just came across this idea ( not my idea) :
Outer darkness is not a place, but a position outside of the kingdom

These verses were used to explain that hell is not the same thing as outer darkness:

(Mat 8:11 KJV) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 8:12 KJV) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

and

(Mat 25:30 KJV) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

and

(Mat 22:12 KJV) And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
(Mat 22:13 KJV) Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 22:14 KJV) For many are called, but few are chosen.

The argument given is more about the loss of rewards for the believer.
I quote : The Christian who enters into the kingdom of heaven will enter into a position of responsibility, honor, glory and immortality. The Christian who fails to enter the kingdom of heaven is cast into outer darkness.....This Christian’s home will still be the New Jerusalem, and he will still be cleansed, purified and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Something about this argument makes sense, but something about it just doesn't quite seem right. I would like to get some of your thoughts........



TheoJunkie -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (4/14/2008 9:21:11 PM)

It isn't right.

Yes, "outer darkness" is a positional/relational description. But it is more than that.

In the old testament, people who were unclean for whatever reason, had to go outside the camp until they were clean again. The new Jerusalem is "The Ultimate Camp." Nothing unclean shall enter it... those that are unclean (and only those) will be cast out... out into outer darkness.

Further, all the citizens of the new Jerusalem will walk in the LIGHT of God / the city. If you are in darkness, you are not a citizen of the city.

If you aren't a citizen of the city (which is heaven), then you are in hell.

So... "outer darkness" refers to hell.

As for rewards... all the citizens of heaven will be overwhelmed with joy, lacking nothing... no pain, no crying, no gnashing of teeth. Rewards are real-- but they are on top of that. So, the one who loses the race (but finishes) will be complete in perfect joy... and the one who wins the race will have so much more.

My pastor gave an analogy using two cups-- a dixie cup and a huge Double Big Gulp cup. The dixie cup is the one who has true faith but sort of slacked along not trying very hard. He will be filled to the brim with joy to overflowing. The one who strives every moment to follow the Lord is the huge cup... he too will be filled to the brim with joy to overflowing. Both will be overwhelmed with joy to the point that they can't even imagine any more... but the one who "wins the race" will have so much more.

PS... I didn't provide any scripture links... but check Revelation and Paul's epistles.



bob97 -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (4/15/2008 12:48:59 AM)

quote:

Further, all the citizens of the new Jerusalem will walk in the LIGHT of God / the city. If you are in darkness, you are not a citizen of the city.


Theo at what point in time in the future does the picture that you paint exist? Is it the millennium or after?

Bob



TheoJunkie -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (4/15/2008 7:15:42 AM)

Bob,

I don't think that is relevant, and I didn't paint it. I am approaching this conversation in terms of heaven and hell.... not in terms of eschatology.

However, I do view the picture that Revelation paints to be referring to how things will be from whenever it starts (whether that be already or future) on out through the rest of eternity.



LBolt -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (5/6/2008 3:21:26 PM)

I come to understand that this phrase refers to hell and to those who aren't permitted to enter in to the city gates (New Jerusalem) due to one not keeping the commands of God and the testimony of Jesus.



john_mark -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (5/6/2008 3:35:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpapaj

I quote : The Christian who enters into the kingdom of heaven will enter into a position of responsibility, honor, glory and immortality. The Christian who fails to enter the kingdom of heaven is cast into outer darkness.....This Christian’s home will still be the New Jerusalem, and he will still be cleansed, purified and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Something about this argument makes sense, but something about it just doesn't quite seem right. I would like to get some of your thoughts........


this seems to present a 2- tiered salvation. christians and really good christians.



rcjames -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (5/6/2008 4:44:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
Further, all the citizens of the new Jerusalem will walk in the LIGHT of God / the city. If you are in darkness, you are not a citizen of the city.

If you aren't a citizen of the city (which is heaven), then you are in hell.


And what about the "Kings of the earth"?

(Rev 21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

They evidently live outside the New Jerusalem, but can come into it.

Thanks
RC



MrFribbles -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (5/6/2008 6:21:50 PM)

quote:


And what about the "Kings of the earth"?

(Rev 21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

They evidently live outside the New Jerusalem, but can come into it.


I'm not sure where you were planning on going with this, but you bring up a good point, so I hope you don't mind me expanding on it.
I would disagree with the idea that the New Jerusalem is the entirety of heaven. Scripture speaks of a New Heaven and a New Earth, not just a New Jerusalem. Heh, aside from the purely practical aspect of things (how can the multitude of Christians who have been saved throughout the ages live in a single city?), I feel that the view of Jerusalem-only heaven does not take into account the full scope of God's redemptive plan. God is not only intent on redeeming humanity, but also the world He created as well. Indeed, the universe He created!
I fully believe that we, as humans, will continue to explore, continue to learn about, and continue to live in the New World, which will be like the one we inhabit now, but without all the nasty blight of sin. So, to relate it to what RC said, I also believe there will continue to be governments, cultures, other things that make us diverse. But again, these differences and diversities will do nothing to separate us from one another; rather, they will be a way to showcase God's glory by showing His ability to bring unity amidst diversity.
All that to say, I believe all Christians will have full access to the new Jerusalem, but not everybody will live there, because there'll be a whole New World out there to inhabit as well.



LCannon -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (5/7/2008 12:22:16 PM)

John 3:18-"He who believes in him[Jesus' as Deity as evidenced in his Works]is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed[thus has already been cast out]in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the[condemnation]that the light[Jesus]has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."



LCannon -> RE: Outer darkness vs hell (5/7/2008 12:24:08 PM)

John 3:18-"He who believes in him[Jesus' as Deity as evidenced in his Works]is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed[thus has already been cast out]in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the[condemnation]that the light[Jesus]has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."



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