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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/19/2008 11:36:14 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 643
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
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quote:
If the most educated Bible scholars (who work on translations) show that it is inconclusive whether the Greek word (pisteuo, I believe) in this context means 'faithful' or 'believer' (because it does mean both things)
The European Calvinists assumed that only God could ultimately judge the heart, and modestly confined themselves to judging observable behavior. As long as someone assented to the facts of the faith, and acted like a believer, they felt obligated to treat that person as a believer. The notion that we can divorce faith and works is foreign to the Bible. A man's faith will reveal itself in it (good) works, but the (good) works do not always reveal faith.
quote:
You can't argue with the inspired Word of God, but you can certainly argue with translation and interpretation - both of which are done by everyday humans. Argument can be enlightening.
I agree. Iron sharpens iron.
_____________________________
Tutto posso in colui che me da la forza! (Fil. 4:13)
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/22/2008 11:33:38 PM
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BibleL7
Posts: 449
Joined: 2/1/2008
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If one does not consider the Bible the church uses the Rules then how can they call themselves a church. And if by-laws mean nothing they are not an organization legal in the state they are organized. There is a reason for by-laws and if you wish to just toss them aside you have nothing to go by as rules. The problem with this generation they don't want to follow set rules as being right. So you all just want to eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we go to hell. NO thanks I will choose to follow the laws my Lord set forth in the Bible and the rules His leaders set forth in by-laws.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/23/2008 10:09:38 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1116
Joined: 4/29/2005
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I'm confused... does your Church just pick one translation? I've never heard of that practice.
Does everyone read only that one? Do your leaders just stick with the idea that the translation team of that Bible made the absolute best choice in all passages that are not easily translated, or the passages that are ambiguous in the original language? Do you have no one in your Church that can reference the original language for you?
I'm also wondering about the idea of permanent bylaws... didn't your founders make them up in the first place?
I'm sure your founders were wise and doing their best, but surely your current people are wise too, and may want to make amendments if their understandings, desires or practices have changed. In our situation, any congregational vote can legally change any bylaw without effecting the legal status of the organization (unless the change itself voids the status). We've changed quite a few bylaws in the last decade or so -- including one that obligated us to sing every verse of each hymn... the founders felt strongly about that, but we don't.
In my opinion, if people made the rules, people can change them without the kind of chaos you seem to fear. Just because I occasionally think I'm smarter than our founders doesn't mean that I don't think some things are right and wrong. I just sometimes think the bylaws are wrong. Our founders and original leaders were strong and wise, but no more so than our current leaders. If they felt qualified to make up bylaws from scratch, why should we not feel qualified to evaluate them?
Since you seem to be lacking the concept of original languages, I will let you know that "Church" is the English word chosen to represent a complex Greek word, related to their word for 'call' - it means "ones who have gathered in response to a call" - in practical terms it was used for any type of public assembly, which was usually 'called' by trumpets. The Church of Jesus Christ is simply the gathering of those who have answered Jesus' call - which is why any group of Christians is a Church, with or without immutable bylaws or an official translation.
I choose NOT to follow man's rules - I follow the Scriptures as best I understand them and I place my true faith and submission in my Lord Jesus Christ. If that's not enough to keep me out of hell, I guess I'm sunk. But... the implication that I am hedonistic and bound for hell is uncalled for, personally insulting, and a violation of TOS. Please refrain from statements like that in the future.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/24/2008 5:10:51 AM
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BibleL7
Posts: 449
Joined: 2/1/2008
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I did not personally insult anyone I am sorry you took it that way. And many churches choose one translation so all will be able to do responsive readings first of all. It is very hard to follow in a responsive reading if you are using different versions. And yes we can change our by-laws with a 2/3 vote though we have not had need for it but once. What I was trying to get across was the matter that as an organization the rules to follow should be set up and followed. Either a church believes the Bible to be the Word of God or they dont.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/24/2008 4:50:16 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1116
Joined: 4/29/2005
Status: online
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quote:
What I was trying to get across was the matter that as an organization the rules to follow should be set up and followed. I agree with this, but only to a point - when the rules may need to be evaluated and adjusted... then the new rule should be set up and followed.
quote:
Either a church believes the Bible to be the Word of God or they dont.
However, I'm not sure about this - are you talking about 'churches' who actually believe the Bible to be neither inspired nor authoritative? In that case, of course such a 'church' is in trouble, but I don't think anybody is saying that in this thread (at least I'm not). My Church certainly believes that the Bible is the Word of God - and as such it is both inspired and authoritative. We just also acknowledge that tasks like translation and interpretation are undertaken by regular people, and therefore are subject to yielding false or ambiguous understandings.
An 'official' translation would be handy for responsive readings. When we do those, we tend to either reference the provided 'pew bibles' and/or put the text up on the overhead screen. Choosing one translation for such practical applications could be a benefit, especially if you do a lot of responsive readings... but it seems like a real down-side to that choice if people avoid serious Bible digging just to say, "The translation team of the official version must have been much smarter than the others, and our version has the indisputable answer." It shows more wisdom to be able to say, "Different translation teams, who were all very smart, came up with different ideas here - I wonder what the passage said in the first place and what issues might have lead to the confusion in English."
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/25/2008 12:44:56 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1704
Joined: 5/23/2006
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If there was a man alive who could "make" their son or daughter be saved they would be either a. the richest man on the planet or b. crucified by the religious ones like Jesus was because somebody didn't agree with his methods.
An elder has duties to teach his children and raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord, just as all parent's have....Calvary would not have been necessary if one of us could bring about salvation now would it?
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/26/2008 6:35:48 AM
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BibleL7
Posts: 449
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There is the matter that children tend to believe what they are taught by their parents and it can be said that believing intellectually does not necessarily equate to salvation. Yes you can say I am splitting hairs but the Bible says to teach your child in the way they should go and they will not soon depart from it. Also the Bible says you believe in one God this is good yet even the demons believe and tremble. Kinda gives the suggestion that believing is possible without saving faith. Just a thought.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/26/2008 7:23:19 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3312
Joined: 4/11/2005
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My case, my daughters are saved, but if they chose to act in a way that brought reproach on Christ and his Church, they would have to find somewhere else to live. I take my husband being an Elder, and I being a teacher very seriously. Remember when Eli, did not deal with his sons. I am not saying they are stepford children, and perfect, but they know we serve the Lord in our house. It is something, I have to put faith in the Lord for also, and pray he keeps them from behavior that would hurt them, and the Kingdom.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
There is the matter that children tend to believe what they are taught by their parents and it can be said that believing intellectually does not necessarily equate to salvation. Yes you can say I am splitting hairs but the Bible says to teach your child in the way they should go and they will not soon depart from it. Also the Bible says you believe in one God this is good yet even the demons believe and tremble. Kinda gives the suggestion that believing is possible without saving faith. Just a thought.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/26/2008 7:54:37 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2225
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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One of the best volunteers I have had in my womens prison ministry was a pastor's daughter who went "on the wild side" for several years and got pregnant out of wedlike. It was that pregnancy that brought her back to the Lords. Should her father have steped down from the pastorate during her years of rebellion?
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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