RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church?

RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church?

Yes.

56% (45)

No.

41% (33)

I don't know.

1% (1)

Total Votes : 79

(last vote on : 5/5/2008 12:34:43 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

2shaye -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/22/2008 9:31:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe The law of land never usurps God's law... Is she wants to remove him for cause that's another thread... If she wants to remove him because he won't go to church, that's this thread and she would be wrong to do so given their prior agreement in my view... If you want to look at this through a secular pair of glassess why post here? John Okay, John. Let's use your words. Why would she be wrong to remove him because he won't go to church? Because of their prior verbal agreement? After you answer this, I will go to the next point.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/22/2008 9:44:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: qtman She posts here for the same reason you do. That's fine, but she is making a point of ignoring the religious aspects... It's a valid question, this is a religious forum and it applies to this thread... quote: I have even took the time to go back and read every one of your last 100 posts and they are all argumentative. Do you never agree with anyone? I am beginning to think not. Let's prove you wrong... http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_3300468/mpage_8/key_/tm.htm# John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/22/2008 9:47:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2shaye quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe The law of land never usurps God's law... Is she wants to remove him for cause that's another thread... If she wants to remove him because he won't go to church, that's this thread and she would be wrong to do so given their prior agreement in my view... If you want to look at this through a secular pair of glassess why post here? John Okay, John. Let's use your words. Why would she be wrong to remove him because he won't go to church? Because of their prior verbal agreement? After you answer this, I will go to the next point. I have said it enough times already.... Ask around...lol John

OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/22/2008 10:06:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: mrsdash your contention is that her agreement has a length obligation to it. why? why can't she bring an expiration to it? The only obligation I have spoken of is the one that has to do with their agreement about not going to church... I have responded to questions about the length of the agreement but they really don't have much to do with his not going to church and if she were to use some law or whatever to get around their agreement that would deceitful... quote: when families have trouble with family tenants that can't be resolved, the law of the land does come into play. while it's sad to get to that point, the son needs to understand and respect that along with being of legal age, there are legal responsibilities and his landlord also has legal rights. The law of land never usurps God's law... Is she wants to remove him for cause that's another thread... If she wants to remove him because he won't go to church, that's this thread and she would be wrong to do so given their prior agreement in my view... If you want to look at this through a secular pair of glassess why post here? John you have not demonstrated what law of God takes away this mother's right to change the rules. the civil law is ordained by God also for keeping civil peace. further, one party of this agreement doesn't share his mother's beliefs and HE needs to understand that with his legal rights comes responsibiblity. HE needs to understand that his mother has a legal leg to stand on.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/22/2008 10:21:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mrsdash you have not demonstrated what law of God takes away this mother's right to change the rules. I covered that days ago... Let your yes be yes and your no be no.... She agreed that he didn't have to go to church to live there... You have not demonstrated anything that would grant her relief for going back on her word... I believe a case could be made in regards to the Ninth Commandment as well... quote: the civil law is ordained by God also for keeping civil peace. Yes, Romans 13 makes that clear, yet God's laws are supreme(Peter speaks of who we should obey, God or man...) and the laws the man makes cannot usurp God's law... If there is a conflict God's law is to be followed... If not, man could pass a law forbidding worship and you'd be bound to obey it, yet we know we would be wrong to obey such a law... quote: further, one party of this agreement doesn't share his mother's beliefs This was known when the initial agreement was made... That doesn't favor the mother... quote: and HE needs to understand that with his legal rights comes responsibiblity. HE needs to understand that his mother has a legal leg to stand on. Only if you look at this in a completely secular view... John

OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/22/2008 10:36:45 PM)
matthew 5:7 is talking about what names by should or should not be invoked when swearing /oath making. it's not about changing an agreement at some point. it's saying don't invoke a name or heaven or anything else. just state your oath. stand on you own reliability. different agreements have different terms, both in length, weight, nature etc. not every agreement is the same . bearing false witness against a neighbor doesn't exactly apply here. who is falsely being acused? (maybe the mom)if you just want to say, do not lie, that doesn't apply to changing the rules either. not unless it was an intentional bait and switch. you can't say bringing up the civil law is purely secular and say that yes God ordained civic law at the same time.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/22/2008 11:08:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mrsdash matthew 5:7 is talking about what names by should or should not be invoked when swearing /oath making. it's not about changing an agreement at some point. it's saying don't invoke a name or heaven or anything else. just state your oath. stand on you own reliability. Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. It's rather clear... It means simply mean what you say.. Be clear and concise... That being the case to later have your yes turn into no is an issue... Supported by the following... Numbers 30:2 When a man vows a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by a pledge, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. quote: different agreements have different terms, both in length, weight, nature etc. not every agreement is the same . That's fine... If the mother wishes to remove the son from the home she needs to find a reason other than him attending church... quote: bearing false witness against a neighbor doesn't exactly apply here. who is falsely being acused? (maybe the mom)if you just want to say, do not lie, that doesn't apply to changing the rules either. not unless it was an intentional bait and switch. Breaking your word can amount to telling lie... quote: you can't say bringing up the civil law is purely secular and say that yes God ordained civic law at the same time. It's not about bringing it up, but it's weight... If you believe that law trumps God's law I can...God ordained the civil government... He didn't ordain laws that conflict with his.. Case in point... Abortion... There is a pecking order... God's laws is supreme over man's... We are to follow His law always... Where man's law conflict we are to obey God's law... The civil laws of the land don't grant the mother the right to revoke her word since God tells us we are to keep our word. John

OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 12:21:02 AM)
You are ignoring the context. it's about how an oathe is created. if you say yes when you MEAN no. that is wrong. it is not wrong to say yes, mean yes, and later decide the yes needs to be changed to no. change can be made with integrity. find me God's law that says otherwise. till then i think this drum probably has a hole in it.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 12:48:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mrsdash You are ignoring the context. it's about how an oathe is created. No I am not... The verse stands... Yes means yes and no means no... It's not simply how to create but how one is to act... There is even a warning attached for not doing what the verse says to do.. quote: if you say yes when you MEAN no. that is wrong. it is not wrong to say yes, mean yes, and later decide the yes needs to be changed to no. Numbers 30:2 When a man vows a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by a pledge, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. quote: change can be made with integrity. Verse? Find me one that allows the change with regard to the OP... And find one that says God's ordaining of the civil government for order trumps His word if man creates a law that conflicts with is... Or one that says it's ok for man to follow man's law that puts him in conflict with God's.. John

2shaye -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 1:15:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: 2shaye quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe The law of land never usurps God's law... Is she wants to remove him for cause that's another thread... If she wants to remove him because he won't go to church, that's this thread and she would be wrong to do so given their prior agreement in my view... If you want to look at this through a secular pair of glassess why post here? John Okay, John. Let's use your words. Why would she be wrong to remove him because he won't go to church? Because of their prior verbal agreement? After you answer this, I will go to the next point. I have said it enough times already.... Ask around...lol John Nice. A sarcastic reply. Are you sure you're not Zedd using Sovereign as an alias?

OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 1:27:59 AM)
numbers 30 is in the context of instructions for sabbaths, offerings and related vows to the LORD. it had nothing to do with vows between people. and BTW in numbers 30 husbands and fathers had the authority to void a vow made to God himself. the law of vows set a time limit for voiding that vow, but God himself would forgvie the vow if the husband/father said no. the vows were supposed to have spiritual sincerity because it was an act of worship to God.

OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 1:52:03 AM)
different agreement types have different degrees of length and breakabilty. marriage- expected be lifelong, certain loopholes exist. employment-varying lengths breakable by both parties. tenants- varying lengths. breakable by both parties. i would call this a tenant type agreement. do you have another more biblical way to define it? what does the bible say if anything about how to conduct tenant agreements? can you show why the civil law of giving a 30 day notice for changing tenant agreements is unbiblical?

car2ner -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 6:48:09 AM)
quote: 30 day notice It might be as long as 60 days. None the less, I am still waiting to hear HER side of the story.

P31W -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 8:22:53 AM)
It appears that the parents have a verbal day by day contract. There is nothing wrong with that.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 10:11:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2shaye quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: 2shaye quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe The law of land never usurps God's law... Is she wants to remove him for cause that's another thread... If she wants to remove him because he won't go to church, that's this thread and she would be wrong to do so given their prior agreement in my view... If you want to look at this through a secular pair of glassess why post here? John Okay, John. Let's use your words. Why would she be wrong to remove him because he won't go to church? Because of their prior verbal agreement? After you answer this, I will go to the next point. I have said it enough times already.... Ask around...lol John Nice. A sarcastic reply. Are you sure you're not Zedd using Sovereign as an alias? The answer is the in post your replied too... I was being funny for more than sarcastic. I thought it was funny that you were asking me to answer something that I have repeated more than a few times on this thread and in the very post you replied too, that's all... Hence the LOL... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 10:16:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mrsdash numbers 30 is in the context of instructions for sabbaths, offerings and related vows to the LORD. it had nothing to do with vows between people. and BTW in numbers 30 husbands and fathers had the authority to void a vow made to God himself. the law of vows set a time limit for voiding that vow, but God himself would forgvie the vow if the husband/father said no. the vows were supposed to have spiritual sincerity because it was an act of worship to God. If you wish to keep the directive in the verse to the surrounding text only that is certainly your prerogative... The context is keeping your vow, your word.... If you break your word to man, it's ends up being an issue with God... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 10:25:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mrsdash i would call this a tenant type agreement. do you have another more biblical way to define it? what does the bible say if anything about how to conduct tenant agreements? It's a agreement between two people and the bible says to keep your word... Just for fun.... How far would one get making going to church a requirement in a tenant type agreement? quote: can you show why the civil law of giving a 30 day notice for changing tenant agreements is unbiblical? In the case of the OP is would violate the agreement they made regarding him living there... She agreed that he wouldn't have to go to church to live there and now she wants to change the agreement. Because man's law makes provisions for breaking your word doesn't mean that God gives His stamp of approval... I'ts my hope that the word of Christian means more than the ever changing laws of man... The onus is on the person who wishes to revoke their word to find relief for their actions... John

doinkdom -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 10:27:20 AM)
SovereignIsHe: And the connect with the Israelites wandering around for 40 years and Zedd's mom desire to change something they agreed upon is? Pretty vague... doinkdom: Not vague for everyone else...you are the one that made comments about changing agreements. doinkdom: I am certain that the reason for this assumed change of mind has to do with one of probably several things: -it was not a unified decision to begin with SovereignIsHe: As far as we can tell it was mutually agreed upon... doinkdom: Not talking about Zedd and Mom - but Mom and Dad SovereignIsHe: His lifestyle was apparent at the time of the initial agreement. doinkdom - no it wasn't - he had not lived at home in awhile doinkdom: You're 19, in school with a need for a place to live. The only thing your parents ask is that you sit in a building for one hour a week? SovereignIsHe: Actually they are asking to renege on an agreement. doinkdom: no they did not...they changed it and as I stated above...that is what they changed it to based on what they (as husband and wife saw it to do) doinkdom: You do know that just going to church does not make you a Christian, right? That you are in no danger of being saved from the wrath of God, right? That would require something more...so whatever you currently believe isn't gonna change as a result of attending a church service. SovereignIsHe: Of course this could be swung the other way as an argument for why bother since attendance amounts to nothing... doinkdom: well...you got me there dude [8\|] all this aside...I was responding to the original poster, Zedd and not to you...unless of course, you ARE Zedd trying to make your argument. since Zedd seems to have disappeared.[sm=aside.gif] If the son has a problem with church, then we are left to assume he is not a Christian, therefore we are to treat him as an unbeliever, so trying to force the issue with the argument of his mom breaking God's law is weak. *kicking the dust off my feet*

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 12:56:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: doinkdom doinkdom: Not vague for everyone else... Who is everyone else? quote: doinkdom: you are the one that made comments about changing agreements. Actually I have done my best to stick with the one in the OP regardless that a lot of folks have attempted to rewrite the OP quote: doinkdom: Not talking about Zedd and Mom - but Mom and Dad[/u ] Ok... quote: doinkdom - no it wasn't - he had not lived at home in awhile I believe it was... And it was surely apparent given they agreed he wouldn't have to go to church... quote: doinkdom: no they did not...they changed it and as I stated above...that is what they changed it to based on what they (as husband and wife saw it to do) You know why they changed it? Did mom call you? Regardless... It's more than changing one's mind... There was a mutal agreement between the mother and son and she wishes to change the agreement by going back on her word... If she does her word is in question... It's about trust... quote: all this aside...I was responding to the original poster, Zedd and not to you... That's fine but given the parameters of this forum I can respond to whomever... quote: unless of course, you ARE Zedd trying to make your argument. since Zedd seems to have disappeared.[sm=aside.gif] If you really think that file a complaint... By all means... Though I am sure who I am is very clear to the people who operate this forum...[8D] quote: If the son has a problem with church, then we are left to assume he is not a Christian, therefore we are to treat him as an unbeliever, so trying to force the issue with the argument of his mom breaking God's law is weak. It's not about forcing the issue... It's about what is right and wrong as it pertains to the OP... The mom is wrong to go back on her word... She was foolish to enter into such an agreement with a professed non-believer... She's not going to get what she wants forcing the issue... The son doesn't honor his parents and or God... Of course the bible is clear that the believer is held more accountable and to a higher standard... quote: *kicking the dust off my feet* Cute....[:)] John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 12:58:43 PM)
If anyone really cares why I hold my point of view... The bible speak of going the extra mile... To show love for those who persecute you... The best thing the mother could do is honor her word and strive to be the best example of a Christian for the sake of her son and the Truth. That will convict him far greater (and sooner) than hitting him over the head with something and it will give him NO cause to point a finger at his mother because she went the extra mile and loved that which persecuted her... It places it all on the lap of the son... As well... I have revoked my word and the consequences are at times a great burden and I don't wish that on anyone... Remain faithful to your vow, pledges, word and God will see you through... It's about faith, not getting the results that appear to be right to our senses and emotions.. John

OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 1:03:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: mrsdash i would call this a tenant type agreement. do you have another more biblical way to define it? what does the bible say if anything about how to conduct tenant agreements? It's a agreement between two people and the bible says to keep your word... Just for fun.... How far would one get making going to church a requirement in a tenant type agreement? quote: can you show why the civil law of giving a 30 day notice for changing tenant agreements is unbiblical? The onus is on the person who wishes to revoke their word to find relief for their actions... John it's only in your imagination that an agreement has an undetermined life or that it has to have agreement by both parties to change. the bible does not describe every agreement between people in the same terms. if you want to find examples of different types of agreements, in the old testament, hunt around. but we do not need to form our agreements in old testament manners, we only have to be forthright, and honorable. and resting on civil law is not dishonorable being that God ordains it, and there is no law of God that says you may not change your tenant agreement as the law allows. our courts system would have no problem with the church attendance rule. simply because the landlord does not need to have a justifyable reason to stop providing shelter. the landlord can just decide they no longer want to be a landlord. sorry, you just haven't proven biblical obligation here.

doinkdom -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 1:08:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: doinkdom doinkdom: Not vague for everyone else... Who is everyone else? Everyone on this thread well...'cept for you I guess [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: doinkdom: no they did not...they changed it and as I stated above...that is what they changed it to based on what they (as husband and wife saw it to do) You know why they changed it? Did mom call you? Regardless... It's more than changing one's mind... There was a mutal agreement between the mother and son and she wishes to change the agreement by going back on her word... If she does her word is in question... It's about trust... Her word or wishes are only half of the decision, that she may or may not have had the full authority to make...the other half lies with the man of the house, yes? I can promise my daughter anything I want, but until I check with my husband on what he has to say...I have no authority from which to speak. It isn't just my/her house and this situation affects more than one person. Of course, we really only have a 19 yr old perspective of this situation...so seriously, no one here thinks that there isn't a little bit of a slant on the whole story to enlist sympathy or at the very least empathy.[&:] I'd like to say I have better things to do than banter this back and forth, but the fact I keep posting doesn't really give any evidence to that...oh well.[:D]

OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 1:13:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe If anyone really cares why I hold my point of view... The bible speak of going the extra mile... To show love for those who persecute you... The best thing the mother could do is honor her word and strive to be the best example of a Christian for the sake of her son and the Truth. That will convict him far greater (and sooner) than hitting him over the head with something and it will give him NO cause to point a finger at his mother because she went the extra mile and loved that which persecuted her... It places it all on the lap of the son... John or perhaps she thinks this is the way a christian parent is supposed to stand and she is standing on honoring God and tough love. perhaps as she stands on that hill she is wearing out and crumbling. people with faith ride ambulances too. (to take the stress scenairo out) just because not every christian agrees with her strategy, it does not mean she is sinning, deceiving, or breaking God's law. kids point fingers at their parents at times. it's not a manly thing to do. this is an our of balance relationship, the mom is supposed to act like a christian, but the man son is not. so toss out honor your mother, do everything to live in peace, etc etc. sound like unevenly yoked to you?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 3:26:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mrsdash John it's only in your imagination that an agreement has an undetermined life or that it has to have agreement by both parties to change. It's only in your imagination that the life of the agreement is an issue here... The OP isn't about how long, it's about attending church or not. And it's not imagination, but the idea that if the issue was dealt with by both partied at the start there should be good faith negations if the issue comes up... You can attempt to shove the entire secular world into the thread, but I will remind you every time that there is more to it than the laws of man... quote: the bible does not describe every agreement between people in the same terms. The bible says to keep your word... What agreement was revoke in the bible that you are using to say the mother can? quote: if you want to find examples of different types of agreements, in the old testament, hunt around. but we do not need to form our agreements in old testament manners, we only have to be forthright, and honorable. and resting on civil law is not dishonorable being that God ordains it, and there is no law of God that says you may not change your tenant agreement as the law allows. The fact that God ordained the civil government doesn't mean everything the civil government does and or makes law is forthright, and honorable. Again... The bible, the word of God is the last word and the SUPREME law above all others... quote: our courts system would have no problem with the church attendance rule. simply because the landlord does not need to have a justifyable reason to stop providing shelter. the landlord can just decide they no longer want to be a landlord. Again.. Back to the secular only view... And I remind you that God ordaining the civil government is NOT a blanket endorsement of all laws and actions of any goverment by God... quote: sorry, you just haven't proven biblical obligation here. In your opinion... Of course no one has shown biblical relief for the mother to go back on her word... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it acceptable for Christian fam. to kick out adult son for refusing to goto church? (4/23/2008 3:33:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: doinkdom Everyone on this thread well...'cept for you I guess [;)] Comfort in numbers? [;)] quote: Her word or wishes are only half of the decision, that she may or may not have had the full authority to make...the other half lies with the man of the house, yes? I can promise my daughter anything I want, but until I check with my husband on what he has to say...I have no authority from which to speak. It isn't just my/her house and this situation affects more than one person. If we are going to go down this road I think it's time to start a new thread... quote: Of course, we really only have a 19 yr old perspective of this situation...so seriously, no one here thinks that there isn't a little bit of a slant on the whole story to enlist sympathy or at the very least empathy. Only someone who is not really reading my posts would think I have sympathy for the 19 year beyond what I have for anyone that is lost. In fact my concern is for the mother, I just don't believe letting her go back on her word is the right and best thing for what she wants for her son... I gave my reasons why I stand where I do on the issue and the the son isn't even close to the top of the list... quote: I'd like to say I have better things to do than banter this back and forth, but the fact I keep posting doesn't really give any evidence to that...oh well.[:D] Heh... Cute...[8D] John

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