Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (Full Version)

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TomTurn -> Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 8:54:19 AM)

Ana Puente was an infant with a liver disorder when her aunt brought her illegally to the U.S. to seek medical care. She underwent two liver transplants at UCLA Medical Center as a child in 1989 and a third in 1998, each paid for by the state.

But when Puente turned 21 last June, she aged out of her state-funded health insurance and was unable to continue treatment at UCLA.

This year, her liver began failing again and she was hospitalized at County-USC Medical Center. In her Medi-Cal application, a USC doctor wrote, "Her current clinical course is irreversible, progressive and will lead to death without another liver transplant." The application was denied.

The county gave her medication but does not have the resources to perform transplants.

Late last month Puente learned of another, little-known option for patients with certain healthcare needs. If she notified U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services that she was in the country illegally, state health officials might grant her full Medi-Cal coverage. Puente did so, her benefits were restored and she is now awaiting a fourth transplant at UCLA.

Source

Wonder what happened to the kids who were bumped for her?



Evangel70 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 10:05:56 AM)

Since Ana was brought into the country as an infant and therefore had no choice in the matter, would you have preferred that the now 21 year old be left to die because of the sins of her family?

The article doesn't say that she was bumped up on the waiting list for a liver transplant. In fact the article states that...

More than 90% of the organs were given to U.S. citizens....Donor livers are generally allocated through a geographically based distribution system on the basis of how sick the patients are and how long they have been on the transplant waiting list...Immigration status does not play a role in allocating organs.

I guess the bigger question should be whether tax payers should be footing the $500K+ bill for ANY indigent care -- legal or illegal citizen.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 11:00:05 AM)

No one has said they prefer she die. But it does raise questions.

Are there no liver transplants in Mexico?

How much cost of Mexican citizens and other illeglas must the U.S. absorb?

Will there be any ramifications should it be foud a U.S. citizen or legal resident was forced to wait longer and died as she was getting one of three transplants?

Will the L.A. Times be doing a sob story of that person and family?

.....

It has become guite evident that to be an illegal in the U.S. from South of the border is a new protected class, regardless of the cost to U.S. citizens and legal residents, even to the point of death.



Zhi -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 11:35:22 AM)

So she's already gone through 3 livers at the taxpayer's expense and the expense of sick citizens (we have a finite number of organs available for transplant) despite being in this country illegally, and now, BECAUSE she's here illegally, she will get a fourth when, if she had been a citizen, she would not have been eligible?

That doesn't make any sense at all.

And yes, Mexico does have the technology to perform liver transplants.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 12:17:30 PM)

quote:

The article doesn't say that she was bumped up on the waiting list for a liver transplant. In fact the article states that...

More than 90% of the organs were given to U.S. citizens....Donor livers are generally allocated through a geographically based distribution system on the basis of how sick the patients are and how long they have been on the transplant waiting list...Immigration status does not play a role in allocating organs


Let's post what it really says

......

"Donor livers are also in scarce supply. In California, nearly 3,700 people are on a waiting list for livers, according to the network. Last year, 767 liver transplants were performed in the state. More than 90% of the organs were given to U.S. citizens.

Donor livers are generally allocated through a geographically based distribution system on the basis of how sick the patients are and how long they have been on the transplant waiting list.

Immigration status does not play a role in allocating organs.

But some say that it should and that illegal immigrants should return to their home countries for care rather than receive organs and costly transplants ahead of legal residents and U.S. citizens."

......

She got 3 liver transplants, that means that 3 others were told to wait. Who were they? What happened to them?



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 12:22:03 PM)

A comment from the L.A.Times

"Having known an American family who lost everything before they could qualify for the "free" medical care for the liver transplants that the ungrateful Ms. Puente & Mr. Lopez have received at no cost to them or their families for most of their lifetimes. It certainly should matter to Ms. Puente that she is "undocumented" since she has received close to 3M dollars in "free" medical care provided by the United States taxpayers as she stepped over them to take 3 livers and a 4th one in the wings."



stellaluna -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 2:31:36 PM)

I say don't give it to her. I also say her family should pay for the transplants she's already had, just as I think any illegal immigrant should pay for any healthcare they have received for free. Bill them.



earthless -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 3:57:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

No one has said they prefer she die. But it does raise questions.

Are there no liver transplants in Mexico?

How much cost of Mexican citizens


How do we know she is from Mexico?



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 4:09:04 PM)

quote:

How do we know she is from Mexico?


Good question.

That is the info I obtained through another source.

It could also be made through the assumption that 70% of those in the U.S illegally are from Mexico and the L.A. Times made effort to leave out her country of birth. Knowing the L.A. Times had it not been Mexico I am sure they would have mentioned it.

But will follow up on it



earthless -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 4:29:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

quote:

How do we know she is from Mexico?


Good question.

That is the info I obtained through another source.

It could also be made through the assumption that 70% of those in the U.S illegally are from Mexico and the L.A. Times made effort to leave out her country of birth. Knowing the L.A. Times had it not been Mexico I am sure they would have mentioned it.

But will follow up on it


The 70% figure is an assumption, you're right. And you'd be amazed at just how many people that immigrate illegally here from south of the border are not Mexican.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 5:11:34 PM)

quote:

The 70% figure is an assumption, you're right. And you'd be amazed at just how many people that immigrate illegally here from south of the border are not Mexican.


One of the fastest growing number now are those from India. But regardless of her birth place, how much cost of illegals must the U.S. absorb?

What happened to the 3 others who were told to wait?

Who is the one now being told to wait?

What has happened to those outside the U.S waiting to come in the country legally for the same?

Will the L.A. Times follow their stories?

Why has illegals from south of the border become such a protected class?



earthless -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 5:17:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

Why has illegals from south of the border become such a protected class?


Some would say because of the massive (positive) impact they have on the economy of the U.S. And by that I simply mean the cheap and ready labor, industry is just as guilty of anything if we're going to blame south of the border illegals for job related items.

Place nearly any other nation south of an unprotected border and we would have the same problem. That coupled with people having to wait an average of 17-30 years to even get their paperwork looked at for legal entry.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/15/2008 10:35:24 PM)

quote:

Some would say because of the massive (positive) impact they have on the economy of the U.S.


Some would be wrong. There is no positive impact on the U.S. economy through illegal immigration and nothing supports that notion.

quote:

And by that I simply mean the cheap and ready labor, industry is just as guilty of anything if we're going to blame south of the border illegals for job related items.


Industry is guilty.

But in the context of this story, work had nothing to do with it. A family came into the country illegally for the sole purpose of medical care at the expense of taxpayers and the possible life of a U.S. citizen or legal resident.

That is the fact and no way to pretty it up.



earthless -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 9:12:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

Some would be wrong. There is no positive impact on the U.S. economy through illegal immigration and nothing supports that notion.


You have got to be kidding me. Look, I am as conservative as any, some even say I make Rush Limbaugh look like a leftist loon. But to say that the countless jobs and tasks illegals do in this country, day in and day out, has no positive impact is beyond asinine.

They indeed do the jobs a lot of Americans (and I can't blame them) would never do for the conditions and money offered.

It's a double-edged sword.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn


Industry is guilty.

But in the context of this story, work had nothing to do with it. A family came into the country illegally for the sole purpose of medical care at the expense of taxpayers and the possible life of a U.S. citizen or legal resident.

That is the fact and no way to pretty it up.


As long as you are well informed that not every "brown" person you see is Mexican. It's akin to me saying every Anglo I see is an off the boat immigrant from Poland.



mapachito13 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 9:52:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

Some would be wrong. There is no positive impact on the U.S. economy through illegal immigration and nothing supports that notion.



So why is it so desireable for people to employ millions of illegal immigrants. Big agriculture employs them, landscapers, restaurants, manufacturing all employ them even at the risk of huge fines. It has got to be worth the risk for all these people to find jobs.

BTW, In SoCal on every freeway offramp you may find them selling flowers, fruit or candy. The caucasian and african-americans are there too - begging! "I'm a homeless vet! Give me money!" At least most illegal hispanics want to work for a living.

To abolish the free ride you just need to abolish the income tax system and turn it into a consumption tax system. Even people getting paid under the table have to buy stuff.

BTW2, The US-Canadian border is more uncontrolled than the US-Mexican border and is twice as long. Add over 6000 miles of coastline and you'll see how impossible (not to mention ludicrous) the notion of secure borders truly are.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 10:09:40 AM)

quote:

You have got to be kidding me. Look, I am as conservative as any, some even say I make Rush Limbaugh look like a leftist loon. But to say that the countless jobs and tasks illegals do in this country, day in and day out, has no positive impact is beyond asinine.

They indeed do the jobs a lot of Americans (and I can't blame them) would never do for the conditions and money offered.


No I am not kidding you. You are welcome to show me any facts that show the massive illegal immigration we have now is a benefit in economics, lifestyle, any area you choose. But that is truly a conversation for another thread, if you desire I can start one.

quote:

As long as you are well informed that not every "brown" person you see is Mexican. It's akin to me saying every Anglo I see is an off the boat immigrant from Poland.


This article is not where I first heard the story. It was fist heard by me in a radio interview in which the hospital spokesman said Mexico was her origin. I then found the LA Times article and posted it. Maybe the hospital spokesperson was mistaken.

As for where you are trying to go with your accusation. I am not allowed to post what you can do with it.

Regardless to all that, the facts remain.

Entered the country illegally for the sole purpose of taking advantage of the health care system. Did so knowing that the U.S. taxpayers would have to foot the bill. Did so knowing that someone else would be displaced, possibly to die. Now demanding a 4th transplant. The medical community is guilty of contnuing to put others at risk by continuing to implant donor livers. After the 2nd one it should be obvious that something is wrong that a liver transplant is not going to fix.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 10:17:26 AM)

quote:

So why is it so desireable for people to employ millions of illegal immigrants. Big agriculture employs them, landscapers, restaurants, manufacturing all employ them even at the risk of huge fines. It has got to be worth the risk for all these people to find jobs.


This is not the subject of the thread but to quickly answer.

"Big agriculture", for decades under the H2a visa has been able to employ as many workers from out of the country as they are able to show they need. Those in the country illegally displace those legal workers

There has not been any fear of fines. Hopefully that will start to change as we have seen in AZ and other places

It all comes down to an employer trying to get a short term gain but that comes with a long term loss for all.



mapachito13 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 10:21:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

They indeed do the jobs a lot of Americans (and I can't blame them) would never do for the conditions and money offered.

No I am not kidding you. You are welcome to show me any facts that show the massive illegal immigration we have now is a benefit in economics, lifestyle, any area you choose. But that is truly a conversation for another thread, if you desire I can start one.


You just answered your own question. The positive economic benefits are that they keep labor costs down improving the American owner's bottom line and they fill positions that lazy American kids won't do. (Get my hands dirty? Ewww!) Again, if there was no POSITIVE economic impact no one would hire them. Or do businesses exist to make sure their labor costs are as high as possible to give everyone a comfortable life?

quote:



As for where you are trying to go with your accusation. I am not allowed to post what you can do with it.



Watch it Earthless! This guy owns a gun!!



earthless -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 10:35:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

Watch it Earthless! This guy owns a gun!!


Cool, because I'm a cop. [:D]



mapachito13 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 10:36:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

This is not the subject of the thread but to quickly answer.


Your right it's about denying a PERSON a life saving operation due to their ethnicity. Good thing the Samaritan in Jesus' parable didn't check the guys papers before he saved his life!

quote:

"Big agriculture", for decades under the H2a visa has been able to employ as many workers from out of the country as they are able to show they need. Those in the country illegally displace those legal workers

There has not been any fear of fines. Hopefully that will start to change as we have seen in AZ and other places

It all comes down to an employer trying to get a short term gain but that comes with a long term loss for all.


You are living in a dream world of the "pure" American my friend. Go to any group of workers in the field and yell "la migra" and see how many of those legal workers scatter. The amount of those visas the gov't issues have never been enough to fill the demand.

Here's the new inscription for the Statue of Liberty
"Give me your energetic, your rich,
your measured quota yearning to breathe free.
Keep your wretched refuse on your teeming shore!
I lift my lamp beside the Golden Electrified Fence."



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 10:41:06 AM)

quote:

The positive economic benefits are that they keep labor costs down improving the American owner's bottom line and they fill positions that lazy American kids won't do. (Get my hands dirty? Ewww!)


As has been shown in the last few months, each time there is a raid on a business that employs mostly illegals, there has been a line outside the business the next day made up of citizens and legal residents looking to fill the jons

quote:

Again, if there was no POSITIVE economic impact no one would hire them. Or do businesses exist to make sure their labor costs are as high as possible to give everyone a comfortable life?


Business that employs looks at a short term gain that is made up in other ways by the taxpayer.

So if employing illegals is so good for the ecomomy, let us go one better and have slavery and pay them nothing. Would that not be better and support your it is positive for the economy?

But none of this is on subject



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 10:43:33 AM)

quote:

Your right it's about denying a PERSON a life saving operation due to their ethnicity. Good thing the Samaritan in Jesus' parable didn't check the guys papers before he saved his life!


Excuse me, she has had 3 transplants already.

What of the 3 PERSONS who were turned away?

People come from all over the worl legally to have medical car in the U.S. and are not turned away.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 10:45:31 AM)

quote:

Cool, because I'm a cop.


Feel safer now becasue I have seen what most cops can do with a firearm (-:

Now let us put all that behind us



earthless -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 11:20:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

quote:

Cool, because I'm a cop.


Feel safer now becasue I have seen what most cops can do with a firearm (-:



'dems fighting words....



mapachito13 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 11:30:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

As has been shown in the last few months, each time there is a raid on a business that employs mostly illegals, there has been a line outside the business the next day made up of citizens and legal residents looking to fill the jons


They had to their welfare benefits had run out! (Sarc definitely on)

quote:


Business that employs looks at a short term gain that is made up in other ways by the taxpayer.

So if employing illegals is so good for the ecomomy, let us go one better and have slavery and pay them nothing. Would that not be better and support your it is positive for the economy?

But none of this is on subject


The first 2 words is immigration debate! Or did someone change the title?
Business always cares about one thing, the bottom line. If they have to break a few immigration laws to maximize it so be it. It only counts if you get caught! [;)]

Slavery? (Hyperbole/definitely on! But I'm sure business would do it if they could! Actually, they do, in other countries. Let's examine where our clothes come from.



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