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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 6:46:40 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
quote:
ORIGINAL: bigmamamary1
However, I notice that those who claim to be ALWAYS reverent and never angry in their prayer life have jumped on others a bit much. You claim to be attacked for your reverence. I don't think that is the case. It is the idea you give that anyone who may be upset, angry in their prayer life is in general a RAGEFUL, or some kind of hateful, crude person. That is not right.
I don't see that anyone who is for revering our God has done that at all. An NO ONE has said that being upset or angry during prayer is hateful or crude. never. I find it very interesting that I go from being told I'm a heathen for one reason to the other extreme of being told I'm being judgmental, jumping on others, etc. I have endeavored not to do so, and if my posts are misinterpreted, I apologize.quote:
I am glad that many of you have such a life that you are never angry over circumstances, and that you never let anger enter into your prayer... I kept reading this, and I have to wonder where you got that from. I have admitted that I have vented in my prayers before. I have done so, and I have repented. My point remains that God's acceptance of me is not indicative of His approval of my actions. He loves me, and it's that love that makes me desire to do the right thing as I brought out earlier. Do I always succeed? I do not. But He still accepts me in spite of me. That's love.
No lashings. I promise. We can disagree and be friends. ( I hope!)
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 6:48:39 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
It seems that there is confusion regarding what some of us are posting. I'm not sure that anyone here has said we should never approach God with what we are feeling. The question isn't whether we should share our emotions with God, but whether there is an appropriate way to do that.
Let me give you an example:
(1) If I am angry about something, I can approach the person and yell at them, scream, carry-on, refuse to hear what they have to say, and throw the fit of all fits.
(2) Or, I can approach them and express to them what I am feeling, that I am hurt, why I am hurt, and listen to what they have to say.
I do not believe (1) is respectful or kind nor does it serve a purpose besides maybe making us feel a little better.
(2) However, is about getting to the root of the problem - expressing our hurt (getting it off our chest) but actually seeking resolution (it's not just about us). It's about caring about the other person enough to treat them with dignity.
and those examples are why i think bringing garbage to God, venting raw frustration etc can be the fruit of self control. because maybe we actually did deal with people and exercise self control, but we still need to process all of the junk. i thinkl God WANTS to help us process all of the junk, and that we don't have to bathe and put on our respectable clothes so to speak before coming to Him.
_____________________________
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 6:53:51 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16842
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
It seems that there is confusion regarding what some of us are posting. I'm not sure that anyone here has said we should never approach God with what we are feeling. The question isn't whether we should share our emotions with God, but whether there is an appropriate way to do that.
Let me give you an example:
(1) If I am angry about something, I can approach the person and yell at them, scream, carry-on, refuse to hear what they have to say, and throw the fit of all fits.
(2) Or, I can approach them and express to them what I am feeling, that I am hurt, why I am hurt, and listen to what they have to say.
I do not believe (1) is respectful or kind nor does it serve a purpose besides maybe making us feel a little better.
(2) However, is about getting to the root of the problem - expressing our hurt (getting it off our chest) but actually seeking resolution (it's not just about us). It's about caring about the other person enough to treat them with dignity.
and those examples are why i think bringing garbage to God, venting raw frustration etc can be the fruit of self control. because maybe we actually did deal with people and exercise self control, but we still need to process all of the junk. i thinkl God WANTS to help us process all of the junk, and that we don't have to bathe and put on our respectable clothes so to speak before coming to Him.
But why bring it anywhere? Why not instead ask God to fill you with Himself? Not that you're not doing that. I deal with people that irritate me on a daily basis. Letting that poison get into my speech is bad (IMO) no matter to whom I am talking. I don't always succeed, but I ask God when I pray to continuously keep me in His presence or to quote scripture, for goodness and mercy to "follow me all the days of my life". I've found that the more absorbed I am in His character, the less likely I am to say things that don't bring Him honor. Now with knowing that it would seem that I would do that more often, and I am working on it. But occasionally I still get frustrated and say something bad while I'm praying. So this is an ongoing journey for me too...
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 7:11:07 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
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the bible doesn't say we are to cast our cares before we come to God.
people, life brings junk into your life. we are not immune for feeling the pollution or weight of it. when i bring anything to God including the ovewhelming negative emotions it is exactly because i don't want to own it or to be defined by it. it is exactly because i want God to be my portion, not the junk that comes my way. we don't have to deny anger, frustration whatever, or shake it off before coming to God. i expect help, strength, healing etc when coming to God.
i take the first step in honoring God with my reaction to the PEOPLE and then come to work out the difficulty with Him. i don't know how i could live without having him to dump in front of. i'm not venting to people. so much potential harm there. being raw is not something i want to do on a regular basis, but i think it can be lifesaving when necessary.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 7:13:50 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16842
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I suppose I draw a difference between bringing those cares to God as prescribed by the bible and bringing the symptoms of those cares. Bringing the cares to me means talking to God about the people that frustrate me. Bringing the symptoms of those cares would be to vent to God. Even though I'm still guilty of doing so from time to time, I see nothing good that comes out of venting except "feeling better". And that's only temporary.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 7:27:53 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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venting goes beyond feeling better if you position yourself before God, to listen etc after.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 7:29:40 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16842
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
venting goes beyond feeling better if you position yourself before God, to listen etc after.
That's true, but I have to bring up my original question. We know God accepts us, but is this indicative of approval? Does God approve of what we're doing when we vent? Is it possible to be honest without venting? I personally think so. And I also believe that prayers that are honest without venting bring God glory much better than prayers that include venting.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 7:32:06 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9446
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quote:
we don't have to deny anger, frustration whatever, or shake it off before coming to God. i expect help, strength, healing etc when coming to God.
I honestly haven't seen anyone advocating denying our anger, frustration or whatever or putting on some kind of false piousness before we cry out to God. That's sure not being honest with him.
I think we are advocating admitting our anger, frustration and whatever to God, being as honest as we possibly can while also controlling our temper and language toward God.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 7:34:10 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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sure we can be honest without "venting", but God doesn't tell us not to FEEL anger or frustration. or not to ever speak of it. i don't think He requires us to get over our feelings or smush them down while we are talking to Him. especially not when we came to Him for help.
to me it's dumping the garbage out at the corss in order to have a cup free for God as my portion.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 7:37:08 PM
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dejavuallovragain
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After reading all of these. I see a lot of grabbing at half statements and running with the truth that the posters want to see. This reminds of apologetics ministries of the 80's that ran with half truths.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 7:38:37 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16842
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dejavuallovragain
After reading all of these. I see a lot of grabbing at half statements and running with the truth that the posters want to see. This reminds of apologetics ministries of the 80's that ran with half truths.
That happens a lot.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 8:15:04 PM
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bluestone
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I see people making false accusations, and telling us that we are praying fake prayers, or hiding things from God if we don't get all bent out of shape with Him.
No one is trying to sound pious, just be reverent towards God. Why is that so hard to understand?
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 8:18:51 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16842
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I see people making false accusations, and telling us that we are praying fake prayers, or hiding things from God if we don't get all bent out of shape with Him.
No one is trying to sound pious, just be reverent towards God. Why is that so hard to understand?
I like your signature, but anyone that's heard me pray knows that weak, limp, etc. are words that don't apply.
The way I see it the discussion has boiled down to those that are advocating reverence while remembering to be honest, and those that are advocating "being real" above all else (or so it seems to me).
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 9:05:37 PM
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bluestone
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There is a huge difference in venting to God, and venting at God.
It is the approach we take.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 9:24:30 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10493
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
It seems that there is confusion regarding what some of us are posting. I'm not sure that anyone here has said we should never approach God with what we are feeling. The question isn't whether we should share our emotions with God, but whether there is an appropriate way to do that.
Let me give you an example:
(1) If I am angry about something, I can approach the person and yell at them, scream, carry-on, refuse to hear what they have to say, and throw the fit of all fits.
(2) Or, I can approach them and express to them what I am feeling, that I am hurt, why I am hurt, and listen to what they have to say.
I do not believe (1) is respectful or kind nor does it serve a purpose besides maybe making us feel a little better.
(2) However, is about getting to the root of the problem - expressing our hurt (getting it off our chest) but actually seeking resolution (it's not just about us). It's about caring about the other person enough to treat them with dignity.
and those examples are why i think bringing garbage to God, venting raw frustration etc can be the fruit of self control. because maybe we actually did deal with people and exercise self control, but we still need to process all of the junk. i thinkl God WANTS to help us process all of the junk, and that we don't have to bathe and put on our respectable clothes so to speak before coming to Him.
Sorry, I'm getting frustrated. We are not saying you shouldn't bring your garbage to God. I repeat: We are not saying you shoudn't bring your garbage to God. I bring that stuff to God daily.
You can "vent", you can "cry out", you can "weep", you can "wail" - and you can do all of that and not treat God like your own personall whipping post.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoerdeLeon
I think we are advocating admitting our anger, frustration and whatever to God, being as honest as we possibly can while also controlling our temper and language toward God.
Exactly!!!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
sure we can be honest without "venting", but God doesn't tell us not to FEEL anger or frustration. or not to ever speak of it. i don't think He requires us to get over our feelings or smush them down while we are talking to Him. especially not when we came to Him for help.
Who is saying we shouldn't feel anger or never speak of it? Sorry, but this is why I'm getting frustrated. Are you reading our posts? Or just not understanding our posts?
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
There is a huge difference in venting to God, and venting at God.
It is the approach we take.
...phosy hands a huge number of stars to bluestone...
Exactly!
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 10:15:17 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
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most of my posts lately have been in response to armydude.
but speaking of reading posts, the OP never said cuss words were included, did not describe venting anger AT God, and did not accuse posters here of fake prayers. but this all keeps coming up.
venting to God has marginally been accepted here. tone of voice has been called questionably irreverent. it seems to me we are largely discussing, what IS deemed reverent/irreverant?
why you're frustrated with me i don't know. i can't think of which post of mine came across as disrespectful to anyone here.
_____________________________
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 10:29:37 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10493
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From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
most of my posts lately have been in response to armydude.
But you quoted me so I guess I'm confused. If you weren't responding to me, why did you quote me? And, I thought armydude and I were posting very similar thoughts...
quote:
but speaking of reading posts, the OP never said cuss words were included, did not describe venting anger AT God, and did not accuse posters here of fake prayers. but this all keeps coming up.
It keeps coming up because other posters have argued that very thing.
quote:
venting to God has marginally been accepted here. tone of voice has been called questionably irreverent. it seems to me we are largely discussing, what IS deemed reverent/irreverant?
Actually most are arguing that one does not always need to be reverant with God - that God can "take it".
quote:
why you're frustrated with me i don't know. i can't think of which post of mine came across as disrespectful to anyone here.
I'm frustrated because I feel that some of you keep putting words in my/other posters mouths that we are not saying. People keep arguing that we are trying to say that we shouldn't show emotion to God or share our frustrations with God and I can't think of a single poster who has made that claim.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 10:37:15 PM
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Kath
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quote:
Actually most are arguing that one does not always need to be reverant with God - that God can "take it".
that's the part that bothers me too.
I know it's not the same thing but, my husband can take it when I get angry and get on his case but is it the right thing to do? I don't think so.
_____________________________
"It's going to be bad around here when the cows come home to roost."
Dilbert's TRUE QUOTES FROM INDUHVIDUALS
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 10:42:57 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
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kath 
phosadaud,
some are saying a venting of frustration is not reverent. not just at God but the tone/volume of voice, etc. that it's okay to say CALMLY that your are frustrated but yell (for example) is not reverent.
there is not an agreement here on what reverent sounds like.
everyone actually does agree that God is to be revered.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 10:44:52 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10493
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mrsdash - I was challenged by one poster a few pages back to show where the Bible commands us to always be reverant of God in our prayers.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 10:47:08 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
most of my posts lately have been in response to armydude.
But you quoted me so I guess I'm confused. If you weren't responding to me, why did you quote me? And, I thought armydude and I were posting very similar thoughts...
from your post i used your description of interacting with people to explain that for ME that interaction with people was why i come to God the way i do on occasion. to avoid acting in a wrong way toward people.
i furthered the conversation with armydude quite a bit more.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/22/2008 10:52:19 PM
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phosadaud
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Sorry, but when people quote me, unless they state otherwise, I assume they are addressing me. I don't really have any way to know otherwise.
By the way, I'm not mad at you, I'm just frustrated.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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