RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (Full Version)

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OLEEguacamole -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 10:55:02 PM)

i was somewhat addressing you, but i wasn't finding fault in what you were saying, i was using your description as a jumping off point to describe my own approach to God, and why.



txhoneydarlin -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 11:08:49 PM)

Kath - 5 stars from me for your post [:)]

What say we take a look at the definition of "reverence" and "reverent" and go from there then? Maybe that will help us all to work together and to communicate on a common basis. If nothing else, maybe we should all agree to disagree on what "reverent" sounds like, respecting each other's opinions.

reverence -
1. A feeling of profound awe and respect and often love; veneration.
2. An act showing respect, especially a bow or curtsy.
3. The state of being revered.

reverent
1. godly, reverent, worshipful
2. feeling or showing profound respect or veneration

(Veneration = Profound respect or reverence)



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OLEEguacamole -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 12:14:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tall_One


Again, I SAY, I feel like I am sitting at Jesus' feet and all of you are the Sadducees and the Pharisees in a hot debate over symantrics.



no, that would imply that there is actual disrespect for scripture, Jesus or holier than thouness.

this is a faith/theology D I S C U S S I O N.

semantics get in the way of understanding sometimes.



Kath -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 1:00:51 AM)

quote:

We are not perfect nor will we ever be perfect; although, some here think they are already perfect.



That is not true and awfully close to a TOS 6.



txhoneydarlin -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 1:02:44 AM)

Semantics (the study or science of meaning in language) often gets in the way for me; I'll be the first to admit that. However, I'm usually one of the first to speak up and admit that I don't understand as well.

I am often a figurative learner - for me to understand anyone, I will ask questions of them to clarify my understanding of what they have said or written or implied so that I don't read anything into what they've said. If my approach bothers anyone, please accept my apologies.

My intent is never to show disrespect or to imply that I am perfect - because guess what? I'm not. I'm a sinner in need of God's love, grace and forgiveness each and every day. I have no problem in stating I am wrong or that I've made a mistake.



whisper -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 1:45:05 AM)

Wow - this is getting really heated.

This is what I'm hearing, please let me know whether I've misrepresented either side. I wonder if having everything clarified will help us escape the pseudo-attacks and frustration. I'll say personally that though I have expressed that I have shared a few tirades with God, I do believe that God is to be revered, and when I call what I did "honest", this in no way implies that being reverent in prayer is a dishonest approach. I think it is most certainly preferable, actually. I'm just not always in that healthy frame of mind where I know that God is everything and that I am nothing without him.

So, anyway, does this summarize your approach?

From the approach God with reverence above all side:

- Tone is important. We are to be humble when approaching our Heavenly Father with our concerns.
- Content is important. Anything that we might say that is rude to other earthly beings is rude to say to our Father. Swearing and tossing blame is not okay.
- The above two points do not mean that we are shielding anything from God or trying to show ourselves to be less angry/imperfect/whatever.
- It is possible to bring everything, including doubts and frustration without being dishonouring to God.
- A sample prayer might be: "Holy Father, I am really upset with you right now. My heart is racing and I feel like screaming as loudly as I can just to feel some kind of release. I know that you are perfect but I just can't shake the thought that you're really absent right now, and that thought hurts. Please forgive my doubt, please restore my faith, please show yourself to me, or open my eyes to see where you've already revealed yourself. I know that if you feel distant from me right now, that it is not on account of your absence."

From the being honest is foremost side:

- If we're really really ticked off with God and feel that he has failed us, he knows that. If we feel like telling him what for, he knows this already. We needn't mince words, but rather approach with our attitudes and offer up those attitudes and thoughts and problems to be changed or discarded by God.
- Raising our voices with God and letting him know that we are angry with him, with an angry tone, is being honest both in tone and in content and reflects the state of our hearts.
- The state of our hearts is likely not okay. Perhaps the anger is misplaced. Certainly, God is not to blame for our problems and circumstances.
- It is the going to God honestly part that is important. God wants to redeem and transform every part of our lives, and when our hearts are changed, this will be reflected in our speech, and in our prayers.

So guys, that's my attempt at a summary, but I won't pretend that I've represented you adequately. So what's not quite right here? If this really is the picture of both sides, I'd like to say one thing that I think has been said a few times already in different ways: REVERENCE and HONESTY are not mutually exclusive. One can revere God and be completely honest with him. I think the real matter of disagreement between the two groups is more this: Is yelling at or to God irreverent in itself?

What do we think, folks?

Also, is this too off-topic now? Should we start a new thread on reverence in prayer and allow this thread to continue more as a survey on who has prayed the "not so saintly prayers to God?"
-



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 1:59:52 AM)

for the most part it's not about being angry with God at all. (however...the psalmist did question God at times. always acknowledged God's sovereignty though.)

it's more about being angry infront of God.

we all agree that God should be reverenced in our hearts.

we don't agree on what all reverent behavior looks or sounds like.



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:08:56 AM)

mrsdash, I'm certainly not frustrated with you. Far from it. I appreciate your reasonable tone and willingness to discuss. Basically, I like your style, ma'am.[:D]

I, personally, don't care how other people pray. That's between them and the Holy Spirit. Normally, I wouldn't even weigh in on a question like this.

However, when the way *I* pray is called "limp-wristed" and whatever other negative adjectives were used, I did want to speak up. And those are the comments that I have really been responding to. To have it implied that I put on false-piety to pray and would tell others that they must do so as well, is inaccurate to say the least. If I have quoted you, it was merely, as you said, a jumping off point to give some point of reference to what I was saying.

None of us pray perfectly, unless we're letting the Holy Spirit have total sway and do it for us. We all talk to our Father the way in which it seems right to us. For myself, that calls for remembering Who God Is in my temper and my speech. To be told that I am wrong and, basically, lying to God, gets my back up and requires that I address the issue.



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:09:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrsdash

for the most part it's not about being angry with God at all. (however...the psalmist did question God at times. always acknowledged God's sovereignty though.)

it's more about being angry infront of God.

we all agree that God should be reverenced in our hearts.

we don't agree on what all reverent behavior looks or sounds like.

The psalmist did question God. You are correct. He also (as you stated) acknowledged God's sovereignty. Tell me, does this reflect that example in your opinion?
quote:

"God, I know Your Word says to be thankful in all trials and afflictions, well I'm not thankful for this at all!! THIS SUCKS!!! Why does it have to be this way!?"
I don't think so.



dejavuallovragain -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:11:53 AM)

I have to side with big mama, tall one, Mrs dash and the maestro on this debate. Christianity is more than behavior modification like Pavlov's dog or sin management it is a relationship. Any successful relationship is going to be passionate. There is still reverence in crying out to God as David did. LORD I AM BROKEN PLEASE HELP ME! sob sob sob



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:15:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dejavuallovragain

I have to side with big mama, tall one, Mrs dash and the maestro on this debate. Christianity is more than behavior modification like Pavlov's dog or sin management it is a relationship. Any successful relationship is going to be passionate. There is still reverence in crying out to God as David did. LORD I AM BROKEN PLEASE HELP ME! sob sob sob
Now I have to ask. Why is it considered being like Pavlov's dog when I say that His love for me makes me want to approach Him with reverence? Please explain your position? I have repeatedly said that honesty is important, but reverence is just as important. Why is it that it is (apparently) believed that if you're trying to be reverent, you're LYING?



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:17:48 AM)

quote:

There is still reverence in crying out to God as David did. LORD I AM BROKEN PLEASE HELP ME! sob sob sob

Of course there is! No one is saying don't be passionate. Please do pray as David did, you can't go wrong!



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:19:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon

quote:

There is still reverence in crying out to God as David did. LORD I AM BROKEN PLEASE HELP ME! sob sob sob

Of course there is! No one is saying don't be passionate. Please do pray as David did, you can't go wrong!
Exactly! There's a huge difference between "Please help me" and "This sucks".



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:33:09 AM)

Come to think of it, when Jesus prayed, He prayed passionately but He still maintained control over his temper and language. We are to be conformed to His image, are we not?



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:34:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon

Come to think of it, when Jesus prayed, He prayed passionately but He still maintained control over his temper and language. We are to be conformed to His image, are we not?
Great minds think alike. I was just thinking that same thing.



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:46:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dejavuallovragain

quote:

Exactly! There's a huge difference between "Please help me" and "This sucks".



How? To 20 yr old the latter phrase is the same as the first one is to an older generation? A lot of what is considered irreverent is cultural or generational.
Truth is not cultural. Truth is not generational. There is no such concept as truth that doesn't apply anymore because we've "moved past that". Reverence is reverence regardless. Look closely at the two quotes I used.
1. "Please help me!"
2. "This sucks!"
In #1, there is a definite acknowledgment that God is in control. "Please help me," says I can't handle this, and I need Your strength to carry on. Very reverent. Very passionate.
In #2, there is no ackowledgment that God is in control, nor is there anything that talks about the holiness of God, the love of God, the wisdom of God, etc. It is just complaining. Is there reverence in simply complaining? No there is not.
How could that be fixed? "I don't like this, BUT I love You, and I know you're in control." The fact is, we're not going to understand all that happens to us. We're not going to understand it or in some cases even like it. But as the song says, "I don't know about tomorrow, but I know Who holds my hand."



dejavuallovragain -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 7:46:26 AM)

Ok I will throw a churchy phrase at you guys. How about righteous indignation. Can a person be righteously indignant over their circumstances? Also the Bible says sin not in your anger. It does not say not to be angry but don't sin while you are angry. I have a good Christian friend who has crazy neighbor who have trumped up charges against him because they don't like him or his barking dog. They also caused his 8 yr old's dog to be killed and now this child cries himself to sleep. Over the past ten yrs these neighbors have done some very unspeakable things to this family. Does he not have the right to cry out to God? He basically told me that he just went outside and poured his heart out to the Lord through tears and elevated speech. Never did he challenge God or blame him. He just said he did not see roman' 8:28 at that moment. Does he have the right to be indignant over his neighbors? Sometimes I wonder if people had actual trouble and hard times hit them if some of their preconceived ideas would change.



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 8:35:32 AM)

We seem to be very worried about how others' posts are coming across to us, but not so much concerned about how we come across to God. I still say that approaching God with a reverence in your heart will be reflected in the words you use. If the words do not reflect reverence, is it really there?

[edited by moderator to remove quotation of deleted text]



bluestone -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 9:03:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tall_One

Again, I SAY, I feel like I am sitting at Jesus' feet and all of you are the Sadducees and the Pharisees in a hot debate over symantrics.




[8|]



landabee -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 9:49:41 AM)

I wouldn't rant in rave in front of my parents to make a point. I certainly would never curse them. And I am an adult and have been for many years.

I just don't think I have the nerve to stand before the throne and pitch a fit.

I have had desperate, exasperating and confusing seasons as a Christian. I have times when I don't understand what God is up to in my life. I have had times(recently in fact) where I have begged Him to make himself known to me. But I never have times when I forget how holy He is.

Just speaking for myself in answer to the OP: Nope, no prayers like some posters have described.

And I have prayed some powerful prayers. [;)]



landabee -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 9:57:11 AM)

Proverbs 15:28
The heart of the righteous weighs its answers, but the mouth of the wicked gushes evil.

Psalms 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, My Rock and Redeemer.






Ps103 -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/23/2008 11:15:15 AM)

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