RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (Full Version)

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phosadaud -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/21/2008 8:54:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tall_One
We are to pray without ceasing. The Bible says as I proved earlier with verse.


Um, who has said we shouldn't pray without ceasing?

quote:

If your mother was killed by a drunk driver ... you pray without ceasing. You would cry, scream, agonize, lament (bible term), wail (yell, curse in anger), and keep asking "but why?" all to God who is your intercessor of prayer.


#1 Wail does not mean curse in anger. It's a loud, mournful cry.

#2 No one has said we don't have emotions. What we object to is the idea that it's ok to yell at God and curse.

quote:

Where does it say in the Bible that God “demands” us to be reverent to Him when speaking with Him?


I'm trying to understand why you wouldn't want to be reverant around the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Creator of All, etc. You see it throughout all of Scripture. Even David crying out to God, He remained reverant and remember He was speaking to the Most High God.

But if you doubt me, do a word search in a concordance for words such as: awe, reverence, fear, honor, esteem, adore.

quote:

What about Psalms when David lamented to God in various emotions?


Ugh! Have you read what we've been writing? NO ONE has said you shouldn't share your emotions with God. No one has said you shouldn't weep before Him or cry out to Him. The argument is not whether we should be open with God. The argument is whether there is it's ok to express those emotions BY yelling, cursing, etc. to God.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/21/2008 9:02:08 PM)

responders in this thread included cussing. it was not the OP.



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/21/2008 9:14:33 PM)

quote:

responders in this thread included cussing. it was not the OP.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knolt

here's an example of one of my not so saintly prayers to God when I go through trying times. I've prayed this before "God, I know Your Word says to be thankful in all trials and afflictions, well I'm not thankful for this at all!! THIS SUCKS!!! Why does it have to be this way!?" Any of you ever pray prayers like this before or similar to this?
True. But to address this directly (which is much easier to address than cussin' anywhos), This is a perfect example of a fit of rage. No self control at all.



Apaise -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/21/2008 9:18:52 PM)

Tall-One - I am not a newbie. I first joined Crosswalk in 2005, and I posted here for two years. I had some rough experiences, both here and IRL that caused me to give up on the forums for quite a while, and I left. After a year or so, I decided to come back, but with a different account (since I have very good reasons for not using my old one). I have been pretty much just lurking for the last six months, and only recently decided to start posting some again. I may be rusty, but I'm not a newbie. I do apologize if it looked like I was attributing the second quote to you. It was not intentional, I honestly forgot to add TheMaestro's name although I did intend too.

(Btw, I may be reading you wrong, so if I am, disregard this. But for what it's worth, it's a lot easier to communicate when you talk [or post] across to people, not down to them. [;)])


So. As for the rest of your post, when I said "God is not your buddy", I was not implying that God should not be your best friend. Since you brought up the father picture, I'll rephrase it this way. When you were growing up, there were no doubt times when you were frustrated with your father. There were also probably times when you didn't understand why he made the rules that he did. Does that mean that your dad didn't want honesty from you? I seriously doubt it. I also seriously doubt that if you reacted to your father by screaming and/or using foul language that you got away with it. In that respect, your father was not your buddy, and that was as it should be. God is our Father, and He should be our best friend, and He does want honesty. But He also wants holy fear (or reverence) from us. In that, He is not our "buddy". I ask again, why are we so willing to show more respect towards other people than we are towards the Creator of all?


quote:

I will say this.. get over it! We are to pray without ceasing. The Bible says as I proved earlier with verse.


For the second time, and for the record, no one is disputing that.

quote:

Where does it say in the Bible that God “demands” us to be reverent to Him when speaking with Him?


Do a search on the fear of God in your KJV. I got over 400 hits, many of them in the Wisdom writings. Or look up the number 3374 (OT) or 5399 (NT) in a Strong's Concordance. Those are the words translated fear that mean reverence of God. Over and over and over, in Proverbs especially, we are told that the fear (reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. This verse in particular stood out to me:

Prov 8:13 (KJV)
13 The fear (reverence) of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward (or perverse) mouth, do I hate.

(parenthesis are mine)


And as for David....he lamented, yes. His laments make up some of the most beautiful Psalms we have. But you can't show me one time where he was less than reverent when addressing God.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/21/2008 9:19:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

responders in this thread included cussing. it was not the OP.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knolt

here's an example of one of my not so saintly prayers to God when I go through trying times. I've prayed this before "God, I know Your Word says to be thankful in all trials and afflictions, well I'm not thankful for this at all!! THIS SUCKS!!! Why does it have to be this way!?" Any of you ever pray prayers like this before or similar to this?
True. But to address this directly (which is much easier to address than cussin' anywhos), This is a perfect example of a fit of rage. No self control at all.


i could say that in a very irritated voice without even raising my voice. that would not be rage.

even rage before God, not AT God, would actually be a more self controlled choice over raging at PEOPLE. no harm comes to God (as it would cause harm to people) and most believers would expect God to comfort, CORRECT, etc as part of the process.



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/21/2008 9:24:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrsdash

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

responders in this thread included cussing. it was not the OP.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knolt

here's an example of one of my not so saintly prayers to God when I go through trying times. I've prayed this before "God, I know Your Word says to be thankful in all trials and afflictions, well I'm not thankful for this at all!! THIS SUCKS!!! Why does it have to be this way!?" Any of you ever pray prayers like this before or similar to this?
True. But to address this directly (which is much easier to address than cussin' anywhos), This is a perfect example of a fit of rage. No self control at all.


i could say that in a very irritated voice without even raising my voice. that would not be rage.

even rage before God, not AT God, would actually be a more self controlled choice over raging at PEOPLE. no harm comes to God (as it would cause harm to people) and most believers would expect God to comfort, CORRECT, etc as part of the process.
But does He approve? As I said before, the issue for me is not whether or not this is acceptable. The issue for me is whether this is right. I don't think so.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/21/2008 9:34:31 PM)

what if i am taking a lot, a lot of garbage at work from people and it's very rough but i am responding in a goldy manner...but then i go home and in the privacy of my own home vent it all out to God, the frustration, the anger, all of it?
it seems to me that i have successfully acted with honor and afterward brought my trouble to God where it would be understood and counseled etc. there might be yelling, tears, whatever, but i brought the garbage to the right place after treating others in a God honoring manner.



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Kath -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 1:15:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tall_One

Then by your own text, you should know that using quotes, it is important to designate exactly who the author of the text is instead of just grouping a bunch of texts together and stating publically in these forums that it was one person. I only said the first quote. Someone else said the other quote.


He apologized, please do not belabor it.



Kath -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 1:19:25 AM)

We have what we call a One Stop thread to discuss the KJV if you wish to pursue this line of discussion, which I have linked for convenience below.

The KJV Only Debate
Click Here

Thank you

Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator

Please do not reply to this message within the Community.

Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.

Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please allow time for a response.



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Kath -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 1:55:10 AM)

You actually quoted it in your own response to him but it's here
quote:


I do apologize if it looked like I was attributing the second quote to you. It was not intentional, I honestly forgot to add TheMaestro's name although I did intend too.


It's at the end of the first paragraph, you can even see it in your own post where you quote him

(edited to add second link)



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whisper -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 3:17:56 AM)

Hi folks, just dropped in and read through this thread - it's very interesting.

To answer the original post, there have been seasons in my life where I have approached God about all things with temperance, meekness, and self-control. And it was honest. There have been other seasons in life where I have approached the throne of grace with absolute chaotic frustration and have brought the things on my heart in the very condition that they were in my life. And it was honest. While I don't think I've ever sworn at God (though I may have), I did approach with what I'll call an honest tone. I'm not implying that a composed air is false or dishonest, but that my pleading, erratic, explosive stance was, in fact, quite honest.

Perhaps I was displaying more of the fruit of the spirit in the days that I was able to compose myself when I spoke to God and to do so with a right understanding of who he is in relation to me. But that's just it - my tone here is a reflection of my life and understanding of God at the time. On the days where my prayers burst out with tears and screaming and punching pillows, my understanding of God and life had been shaken by circumstance, and I had also been far less concerned with my propriety than with reconnecting with God. My tone, yes, is a reflection of my heart. And some days my heart is in tune with God. And some days it just really, really isn't. Yeah, I probably was less spiritually healthy when exploding, maybe I was far from him, but I think the question "but is God pleased?" may not be all that pertinent at a time like this. I understand that armydude may disagree with me here, but I'll explain.

We need to come to God and give him all our junk before we can be transformed. When I had been in a state where all had been relatively open before him for a while, God's goodness, holiness, and grace were forever on my mind and coloured what I thought, felt, and how I responded in a state of crisis. When I had been in a complete broken state and in an active state of doubting or reforming my ideas about God, I come with a lot of grief with a lot less tact and respect. Maybe my prayers were disrespectful, but then again, I was too. "is God pleased?" Well, I would hope that me running back to him, even if it is to ask a million angry questions before embracing him - I would hope that he is pleased with this if not with my tone. There is likely a great many things about my character at that or anytime with which he is displeased, but I have come to be transformed. He will cause that to happen. He will instill in my respect and a correct picture of who he is, and who I am in relation to him.

quote:

When David approached God the way he did, he did so out of his ignorance and lack of understand about God at that moment in his life.


When I just don't get it, when I'm completely ignorant and lack understanding about God at that moment in my life, I do believe God wants me to bring that to him in prayer. And if my tone is ignorant, and if I lack understanding in my speech, that's where I'm at. Maybe God wasn't pleased with the psalmists tone, but then, God often isn't pleased with ignorance or a lack of understanding in any form. At that point in time, I think God is there to correct and guide and transform and renew EVERYTHING, including our tone and our ignorant view of our relationship with him.

This has been long, but I guess if I were to summarize my personal stance:

- I have been respectful in tone when I've had a healthier picture of who God is. Those tempered prayers were honest and meek and respectful.
- I have been less than tactful and have raised my voice with God and expressed anger in my tone. It came out of a place of ignorance, but that too was truthful.
- In all these things I come to God. I understand that not everything in my prayers is good and pleasing, but it is GOD who works in my to will and to act (and to pray?) according to his good purposes. He will cause me to be mindful of him. He will draw me to my knees. And when he does, I am again reverent.
- Be mindful of God. And when you find that you aren't, and that you're angry, and that you're stressed, come to him as you are. He'll remind you of his grace.
- This isn't an excuse for deliberate and continued arrogance toward God or pride and self-interest. We must allow God to transform us. We can be honest, but that honesty must reflect where we are, and where we are should be continually changed by God. When God is teaching us about his holiness, it is not a time to range against him in irreverence.

I have no idea if I've made any sense here, but it is 1:22 a.m.



armydude -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 6:46:24 AM)

When I first started reading your post, one phrase stood out to me. "We should agree to disagree." I was very happy to read that. THEN, I read this mess
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tall_One

If you truely were a die hard fan of the scriptures you would learn Greek, Aramaic, Latin, and Hebrew as those are the four actual and literal languages the Bible with dead sea scrolls were written in. But, I do not see you doing that nor have you voiced a willingness to do it.
This is a definite jump into left field.
quote:



For you to state otherwise, is for you to sit in false judgement of me and it is not your right.
If my words were taken as judging you, I apologize. All I have done is call them as I see them.
The way I see it, (and I have supported this stance through scripture) is that when we bring an attitude to God, He loves us in spite of what we've done, not because of it. The proper prayer to God is done in reverence, remembering that He is God, and I am not.
quote:



Ecclesiastes 3:17
"I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."

Matthew 7:1
"Judge not, that ye be not judged."
And yet, you have done this with me, haven't you? Did you ask if I study the various original languages in the scriptures? No. You jumped to the conclusion. Please do not do this. I have not done so.
I have done my best to keep this a civil debate. I love to debate (as you can probably guess), but when accusations start flying, I will willingly bow out. I do not wish to do so, as I have enjoyed reading your posts, but if I have truly offended, please say so, and I will leave the topic alone.



Apaise -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 7:51:53 AM)

Just for the record, since I apparently forgot to put it in my profile, I'm a she. [:)]


Tall-One - I have a hectic lifestyle, and limited time online. If you were refering to a post made elsewhere when you talked about your parents, I don't read every post on Crosswalk. If you were talking about this particular thread, I read to about the middle of the thread and then I was running out of time and jumped to the last page. I honestly didn't see it, so believe me when I say my intent was not to cause pain. That would be the last thing I would want to do. And I also did not intend to come across as patronizing, if that is indeed the way it sounded.


quote:

Original: Tall-One

I know that my God has proven to me! That, I can communicate with my God in Heaven in any emotion and my God is still honored by my presence because I choose to do it with integrity and honesty with no deceit or malice!



This seems to sum up your position. I am not and have not been saying that we should be less than honest with God. I am and will continue to say that we should be respectful (or reverent) when we come to God. Over and over and over in the Bible God tells us that he is a God to be feared. The original wording translated in 1611 as "fear" invariable, literally, means reverence. God's Word is His written revelation to us. He will never contradict His word when He speaks to us, and He said that He is to be reverenced.


I wonder if you saw this part of my post:

quote:

Original: Apaise

Do a search on the fear of God in your KJV. I got over 400 hits, many of them in the Wisdom writings. Or look up the number 3374 (OT) or 5399 (NT) in a Strong's Concordance. Those are the words translated fear that mean reverence of God. Over and over and over, in Proverbs especially, we are told that the fear (reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. This verse in particular stood out to me:

Prov 8:13 (KJV)
13 The fear (reverence) of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward (or perverse) mouth, do I hate.

(parenthesis are mine)



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phosadaud -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 3:17:53 PM)

It seems that there is confusion regarding what some of us are posting. I'm not sure that anyone here has said we should never approach God with what we are feeling. The question isn't whether we should share our emotions with God, but whether there is an appropriate way to do that.

Let me give you an example:

(1) If I am angry about something, I can approach the person and yell at them, scream, carry-on, refuse to hear what they have to say, and throw the fit of all fits.

(2) Or, I can approach them and express to them what I am feeling, that I am hurt, why I am hurt, and listen to what they have to say.

I do not believe (1) is respectful or kind nor does it serve a purpose besides maybe making us feel a little better.

(2) However, is about getting to the root of the problem - expressing our hurt (getting it off our chest) but actually seeking resolution (it's not just about us). It's about caring about the other person enough to treat them with dignity.



bigmamamary1 -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 5:22:54 PM)

I have watched this for a few days. I am amazed at how far this went from what the op asked. If people had left at answering what they do, or a yes or no, it would have not been so bad. However, I notice that those who claim to be ALWAYS reverent and never angry in their prayer life have jumped on others a bit much. You claim to be attacked for your reverence. I don't think that is the case. It is the idea you give that anyone who may be upset, angry in their prayer life is in general a RAGEFUL, or some kind of hateful, crude person. That is not right.
I am glad that many of you have such a life that you are never angry over circumstances, and that you never let anger enter into your prayer. Oh, to have such a life. For the rest of us, we often come in on skinned kneess, mud on our face etc. I don't think the OP mentioned cursing God, so where any of that came from, I don't know. Guess perhaps I missed something.
I guess I see quite a bit of anger, though subtle. Lot of judging going on here.
I see the OP and some of the others, tall one, themaestro, trying to get some points across, yet being shot down. The OP was talking about coming to God right where they are at the time. I guess I would ask the reverent ones, do you think OP and others should not pray when they feel they need to? That they should wait until they are in the most perfect, calm place? God wants all of us all of the time. I am pretty sure He is not so petty as to say, Oh, dear, she/he just used the phrase "this sucks........." . I think we should all be very careful in what we assume the Great one would "feel" about things.

Okay, awaiting the lashes.............



bluestone -> RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? (4/22/2008 6:37:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigmamamary1

However, I notice that those who claim to be ALWAYS reverent and never angry in their prayer life have jumped on others a bit much. You claim to be attacked for your reverence. I don't think that is the case. It is the idea you give that anyone who may be upset, angry in their prayer life is in general a RAGEFUL, or some kind of hateful, crude person. That is not right.


I don't see that anyone who is for revering our God has done that at all. An NO ONE has said that being upset or angry during prayer is hateful or crude. never.



quote:


I am glad that many of you have such a life that you are never angry over circumstances, and that you never let anger enter into your prayer. Oh, to have such a life. For the rest of us, we often come in on skinned kneess, mud on our face etc. I don't think the OP mentioned cursing God, so where any of that came from, I don't know. Guess perhaps I missed something.
I guess I see quite a bit of anger, though subtle. Lot of judging going on here.


So if people disagree with your opinion, they are judging? No one has said they never get angry, but do approach God with a spirit of humble reverence. Perhaps you have missed a lot.


quote:

I see the OP and some of the others, tall one, themaestro, trying to get some points across, yet being shot down. The OP was talking about coming to God right where they are at the time. I guess I would ask the reverent ones, do you think OP and others should not pray when they feel they need to? That they should wait until they are in the most perfect, calm place? God wants all of us all of the time. I am pretty sure He is not so petty as to say, Oh, dear, she/he just used the phrase "this sucks........." . I think we should all be very careful in what we assume the Great one would "feel" about things.

Okay, awaiting the lashes.............


I see armydude, phosadaud and others kindly and gently providing scripture to support the idea that treating God respectfully is a good thing, and throwing a tirade at Him is against scripture.
maybe we need to be very careful about assuming that the fires of hell don't glow hot for those who trample God beneath their lips.



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