|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? - 4/15/2008 3:49:19 PM
|
|
|
Ignited-Faith
Posts: 309
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: online
|
Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die?
(What do you believe the Bible teaches on this?)
Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/15/2008 4:01:22 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
The bible is relatively silent on this. We can speculate, but we should not say that our opinions are fact. I believe that they do because God creates life, and all life is sacrosanct. While babies do not get the chance to accept God, they do not reject Him either. I think God is merciful to them.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/15/2008 4:04:18 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 4044
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where thawing pigeons reside...
Status: offline
|
I rest assured that there is no one in hell saying, "I do not deserve to be here...." that we can certainly gleam from the account Jesus gave of Lazarus and the rich man.
God is just and holy.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/15/2008 9:09:17 PM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 10657
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
Moving from FaithWalk to Salvation Issues.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/16/2008 2:30:07 AM
|
|
|
ManimalX
Posts: 587
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
|
Acts 15. God has determined the time and place that all lives will operate within. This includes the pre-born. God is faithful, and I echo earthless.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/16/2008 11:20:36 AM
|
|
|
vixir
Posts: 91
Joined: 2/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
The bible is relatively silent on this. We can speculate, but we should not say that our opinions are fact. I believe that they do because God creates life, and all life is sacrosanct. While babies do not get the chance to accept God, they do not reject Him either. I think God is merciful to them.
I agree with you 100% and I couldn't have said it better myself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/16/2008 3:11:11 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 221
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
God is merciful to us all, but I have to think that he is even more merciful to those who do not know what it means to sin and who can not reject or accept him, in the ways we as adults understand accepting. I am not convinced that small children below the age of reason and babies don't understand a great deal about God.
My brother when he was very young 1-2 (he was born when I was 18) would talk about playing in heaven (with siblings of ours who died as babies) before God sent him here to live with us. 
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/16/2008 5:14:20 PM
|
|
|
TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
|
We aren't told.
They -- like the rest of us-- deserve hell.
They-- like the rest of us-- may be saved by grace through faith (yes indeed, through faith) in Christ.
It doesn't hurt to believe that they all go to heaven. Why not? But let's not injure the Gospel or Christ's work on the Cross by our doctrine in this matter.
It's easy for us to think that they must be given a free pass, because it's easy to think that they cannot possibly have faith.
... but in thinking babies "cannot" have faith, we are making an unbiblical assumption. And one unbiblical assumption necessarily leads to another. Not only is the bible silent on the destiny of babies (or anyone in particular)... but the bible is also silent as to whether babies can or cannot have faith.
To the contrary, the bible states that God created the universe out of nothing, that he created each and every person... and that he recreates believers in the new birth. If he can do all this... it seems to be a rather trifling matter for him to be able to bring an infant -- whom he created in the first place-- to faith.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 1:12:41 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
All babies do not go to heaven... If that were the case Joshua would have committed murder in Jericho and God would have done the same in the Flood... I say this because the general theme is innocence... The bible speak of a righteous judgement and I believe that in the Flood and in Jericho a righteous judgement was made and in each case the wrath of God fell upon all ages... If babies as a group are innocent Johua would have been wrong to slay them...
The need of a Savior is universal and Christ was clear that one must be born again. Our first birth isn’t one of the Spirit… In granting salvation to babies or even the unborn one cannot escape in creating a salvation based on the condition of the recipient that defies God’s word. Mankind is guilty and stands accused as a whole in the eyes of God and only the imputed righteous of Christ will suffice at the feet of the Father…
People will say Christ died for them, yet they are without sin and or didn't get a chance to make a choice and that's why they are saved... The blood of Christ has a very specific purpose and reason.
It took the shed blood of His own Son to quench His wrath regarding our sin so how can we believe that a baby will in effect be the same? The flesh is death, the Spirit is life.... We must be born again, because we are born in a dead state as far as the Spirit goes...
Bottom line.... Salvation is in God's hand regardless of age, and the ability to believe stems from God's choice to show mercy to you if you are one day old or 100... We don't know what we should pray apart from the Holy Spirit, so it's safe to say that God can and does speak to whomever at whatever age and it's not about our ability to reason, cause if that were the case only babies would be saved....
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 9:05:20 AM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
The bible speak of a righteous judgement and I believe that in the Flood and in Jericho a righteous judgement was made and in each case the wrath of God fell upon all ages... If babies as a group are innocent Johua would have been wrong to slay them...
John,
Take care not to make a declaration if something is not stated in the bible. The fact that you believe it would have been murder when Joshua did as he did does not make it so. He was a man led by God.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 12:58:02 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
The bible speak of a righteous judgement and I believe that in the Flood and in Jericho a righteous judgement was made and in each case the wrath of God fell upon all ages... If babies as a group are innocent Johua would have been wrong to slay them...
John,
Take care not to make a declaration if something is not stated in the bible. The fact that you believe it would have been murder when Joshua did as he did does not make it so. He was a man led by God.
I don't believe you understood what I posted...
If Joshua had put innocent people to the sword it would have been murder... Yet we know he didn't since we are told he followed God's command to the letter...
Joshua carried out the command of God to the letter... He put the entire population to the sword(cept those who spied for him...) and there was no regard for age and or gender. Everyone was treated the same. From that we can deduct that babies are not granted as a group any privilege.
The same goes for the Flood... God saved Noah and his family and the rest of the world regardless of age fell under his wrath...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 1:45:00 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
Fact: no person is innocent (even prior to birth). In order to be saved, one must choose Christ. Babies do not get that chance, so you say they go to hell. Is this just? Do you not think that God's mercy extends to those who are unable to call out to Him? Do you extend this doctrine to people who are severely retarded? They cannot understand enough to choose. Are they damned? I am very curious about your take on this. Thanks.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 2:17:20 PM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 2829
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
I don't think the fact that Joshua killed babies means those same babies were doomed to hell.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 2:58:46 PM
|
|
|
BookerG
Posts: 90
Status: offline
|
Salvation is always and only by grace. No one is innocent and deserving to be allowed into heaven. No one in hell can say it's unfair because he didn't have a choice.
Babies may not understand enough to make a choice. But faith is not an intellectual choice, it's trust. A day old baby is capable of trust. Faith is the miracle of the Holy Spirit dwelling in your heart. There's no age limit or IQ level below which the Spirit can't dwell. Infant faith may be the purest faith because it doesn't have all those intellectual arguments about why trusting One you can't see or understand is foolishness. It just trusts.
But babies are also sinful. They inherit the guilt of Adam and they share that guilt by their own sin. Anyone who has raised children has seen that anger is not a phenomenon you learn later in life. Even unbelief in which they are born is a sin against the first commandment. And ignorance of the law is no excuse.
God is both righteous and merciful. The Bible is silent about the fate of infants, and I will not dogmatically state what the Bible does not. But if they are saved, I think it must be because God grants them faith through unseen means, rather than that they are innocent or automatically go to heaven.
I believe in infant baptism and baptismal regeneration. I don't think of baptism as a miracle worker that automatically saves babies either. It is merely one applying of the power of the Gospel by which the Spirit works faith. Baptism is the only means I have at my disposal to share the Gospel with infants, but it is not the only means at God's disposal. How, when and to whom he grants new life, faith and salvation are not mine to judge. But there is no Scriptural reason to think anyone can be saved outside of being united to Christ in the personal bonds of faith and trust.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 3:14:14 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Fact: no person is innocent (even prior to birth). In order to be saved, one must choose Christ. Babies do not get that chance, so you say they go to hell. Is this just? Do you not think that God's mercy extends to those who are unable to call out to Him? Do you extend this doctrine to people who are severely retarded? They cannot understand enough to choose. Are they damned? I am very curious about your take on this. Thanks.
I never said all babies go to hell... I said all babies do not go to heaven...
From my first post on this thread...
All babies do not go to heaven... If that were the case Joshua would have committed murder in Jericho and God would have done the same in the Flood... I say this because the general theme is innocence... The bible speak of a righteous judgement and I believe that in the Flood and in Jericho a righteous judgement was made and in each case the wrath of God fell upon all ages... If babies as a group are innocent Johua would have been wrong to slay them...
The need of a Savior is universal and Christ was clear that one must be born again. Our first birth isn’t one of the Spirit… In granting salvation to babies or even the unborn one cannot escape in creating a salvation based on the condition of the recipient that defies God’s word. Mankind is guilty and stands accused as a whole in the eyes of God and only the imputed righteous of Christ will suffice at the feet of the Father…
People will say Christ died for them, yet they are without sin and or didn't get a chance to make a choice and that's why they are saved... The blood of Christ has a very specific purpose and reason.
It took the shed blood of His own Son to quench His wrath regarding our sin so how can we believe that a baby will in effect be the same? The flesh is death, the Spirit is life.... We must be born again, because we are born in a dead state as far as the Spirit goes...
Bottom line.... Salvation is in God's hand regardless of age, and the ability to believe stems from God's choice to show mercy to you if you are one day old or 100... We don't know what we should pray apart from the Holy Spirit, so it's safe to say that God can and does speak to whomever at whatever age and it's not about our ability to reason, cause if that were the case only babies would be saved....
The part in bold covers your question...
As for God's mercy... Paul penned that God's choice of whom He shows mercy to is no dependent on man, but of God's will...
Apart from the Holy Spirit the smartest person in the world cannot make the choice then any severely retarded, or a baby for that matter... We are in the same boat... Mankind is at the mercy of God, not some more than others, mankind. Salvation isn't based on one's ability to make the right choice... If that were truly the case heaven would be empty for the most part...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 3:16:32 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I don't think the fact that Joshua killed babies means those same babies were doomed to hell.
Based on what? What makes you think that's not the case? Do you extend that same thought to the rest of Jericho? If not, why? And if you do, why?
Same goes for the flood... Are you saying there people outside the Ark that were saved? If so what is that thought based on?
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 3:20:46 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
If Joshua had put innocent people to the sword it would have been murder... Yet we know he didn't since we are told he followed God's command to the letter...
Joshua carried out the command of God to the letter... He put the entire population to the sword(cept those who spied for him...) and there was no regard for age and or gender. Everyone was treated the same. From that we can deduct that babies are not granted as a group any privilege.
The same goes for the Flood... God saved Noah and his family and the rest of the world regardless of age fell under his wrath...
Follow up...
If babies are innocent enough for salvation what allowed Joshua to put them to the sword... I know God commanded him to do so... What is the reason they were put to the sword... The bible is clear on why and when live can be taken... What lawful reason were the people of Jericho put to death... Anyone?
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 3:29:07 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
John,
Thanks for the response. BTW, I did not intend to put words in your mouth. I assumed you meant all. Sorry about that.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 4:04:42 PM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 2829
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I don't think the fact that Joshua killed babies means those same babies were doomed to hell.
Based on what? What makes you think that's not the case? Do you extend that same thought to the rest of Jericho? If not, why? And if you do, why?
Same goes for the flood... Are you saying there people outside the Ark that were saved? If so what is that thought based on?
John
I'm saying that while we don't know for sure, it does stand to reason that some of the littlest of those put to death could still have gone to heaven. For all we know, God was saving them from repeating the same mistakes of their parents by cutting their lives short, not necessarily dooming them to eternal damnation. We simply know that they were killed, not where they ended up. God is just; I'm sure they are wherever they needed to be. I just don't think we have enough information to assume either way.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 4:12:41 PM
|
|
|
TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Babies do not get that chance,... those who are unable to call out to Him?...cannot understand enough to choose.
Wes,
You cautioned John against making non-biblical assumptions... but your statement/conclusion here (that babies, et al are "unable to choose" and "cannot understand enough") is itself a non-biblical assumption.
What proof (other than conjecture or "common sense"-- I put that in quotes intentionally) is there that babies (or retarded folk, etc) "cannot" be brought to faith?
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 4:15:41 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Babies do not get that chance,... those who are unable to call out to Him?...cannot understand enough to choose.
Wes,
You cautioned John against making non-biblical assumptions... but your statement/conclusion here (that babies, et al are "unable to choose" and "cannot understand enough") is itself a non-biblical assumption.
What proof (other than conjecture or "common sense"-- I put that in quotes intentionally) is there that babies (or retarded folk, etc) "cannot" be brought to faith?
Just relying on the fact that babies cannot talk and formulate indepth postulations. I have 4 children, the oldest of which is 10, and they still cannot grasp much of the meat in the bible.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 5:05:56 PM
|
|
|
TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
|
Wes,
I would suggest that:
1) Faith that results in salvation is very simple. (Hebrews 11:1 as a quick starter... John 3.. many others)
2) Faith is not something done with the brain. (Job 32:8 as a quick starter... Prov 16:2, 20:27, others)
(BTW, I also have kids that span roughly the same range).
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 6:23:09 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I don't think the fact that Joshua killed babies means those same babies were doomed to hell.
Based on what? What makes you think that's not the case? Do you extend that same thought to the rest of Jericho? If not, why? And if you do, why?
Same goes for the flood... Are you saying there people outside the Ark that were saved? If so what is that thought based on?
John
I'm saying that while we don't know for sure, it does stand to reason that some of the littlest of those put to death could still have gone to heaven.
Stands to what reason? What are you using to make your claims...
quote:
For all we know, God was saving them from repeating the same mistakes of their parents by cutting their lives short, not necessarily dooming them to eternal damnation. We simply know that they were killed, not where they ended up. God is just; I'm sure they are wherever they needed to be. I just don't think we have enough information to assume either way.
Yes... God is just... And the people of Jericho were put to the sword... God being just would treat them all the same, correct? You are making a case that God is excusing a group within those He ordered Joshua to put to the sword... What is your basis for this?
In regards to the Flood... Are you granting the babies outside the Ark the same relief you gave to those in Jericho? And what of those who are not babies?
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 6:28:36 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Babies do not get that chance,... those who are unable to call out to Him?...cannot understand enough to choose.
Wes,
You cautioned John against making non-biblical assumptions... but your statement/conclusion here (that babies, et al are "unable to choose" and "cannot understand enough") is itself a non-biblical assumption.
What proof (other than conjecture or "common sense"-- I put that in quotes intentionally) is there that babies (or retarded folk, etc) "cannot" be brought to faith?
Just relying on the fact that babies cannot talk and formulate indepth postulations. I have 4 children, the oldest of which is 10, and they still cannot grasp much of the meat in the bible.
The fact is that man(at a great height of understanding, that's what the term natural man is referring to, Paul borrowed it from Aristotle to make a point) cannot understand things of the Spirit... So the abilitiy to formulate indepth postulations is meaningless. The ability to grasp the word is by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/17/2008 8:08:51 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 366
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If babies are innocent enough for salvation what allowed Joshua to put them to the sword... I know God commanded him to do so... What is the reason they were put to the sword... The bible is clear on why and when live can be taken... What lawful reason were the people of Jericho put to death... Anyone?
John
what of God's children who are killed, hebrews 11
37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what Fwas promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
God controls every life, the manner in which a person dies does not indicate their salvation. perhaps i am misunderstanding your position
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
