RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die?
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/24/2008 12:29:53 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Either do I... It's plainly in the Scrpitures....
First and foremost... The truth that one must be born again to enter the Kingdom...
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." -2nd Corinthians 5:17
A new creature... Not a new self, a new creature... Different...
2 cor 5 is talking about the physical body
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven
if it were speaking of the spirit then could you explain this
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
are you saying that Christ died spiritually on the cross? or is this passage speaking of Christ dying physically?
quote:
Romans 3 says the WORLD stands guilty before God...
agreed all stand guilty for their individual sins says nothing about man being spiritually dead
as paul wrote later in romans 7
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
paul stood guilty for the sins he actually commited, once he was alive, he sinned then he died.
quote:
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Man is either in the flesh, or in the Spirit...
says nothing about man being born spiritually dead in the sense that they cannot respond to God
paul wrote of this in 1 cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first MAN , Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving R652 spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so R655 also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
again like 2 cor 5 this speaking of the body not spirit. what did God say to adam when he sinned
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
God promised physical death, nothing about spiritual death and not being able to respond to God or depravity, physical death. those who are in Christ will be changed, they will be a new creature, when the mortal puts on imortality
quote:
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." -John 3:1-7
John
1st Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
again see paul's explanation above
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/24/2008 2:45:44 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 969
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Not that one.
I'll give you a hint. . . it had to do with forgiving. . .
Ahh, that one!! Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/24/2008 3:39:02 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1733
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Not that one.
I'll give you a hint. . . it had to do with forgiving. . .
Ahh, that one!! Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
Right. Knowing not did not excuse the sin nature.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/24/2008 4:14:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Either do I... It's plainly in the Scrpitures....
First and foremost... The truth that one must be born again to enter the Kingdom...
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." -2nd Corinthians 5:17
A new creature... Not a new self, a new creature... Different...
2 cor 5 is talking about the physical body
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven
if it were speaking of the spirit then could you explain this
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
are you saying that Christ died spiritually on the cross? or is this passage speaking of Christ dying physically?
quote:
Romans 3 says the WORLD stands guilty before God...
agreed all stand guilty for their individual sins says nothing about man being spiritually dead
as paul wrote later in romans 7
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
paul stood guilty for the sins he actually commited, once he was alive, he sinned then he died.
quote:
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Man is either in the flesh, or in the Spirit...
says nothing about man being born spiritually dead in the sense that they cannot respond to God
paul wrote of this in 1 cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first MAN , Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving R652 spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so R655 also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
again like 2 cor 5 this speaking of the body not spirit. what did God say to adam when he sinned
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
God promised physical death, nothing about spiritual death and not being able to respond to God or depravity, physical death. those who are in Christ will be changed, they will be a new creature, when the mortal puts on imortality
quote:
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." -John 3:1-7
John
1st Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
again see paul's explanation above
Ok... Let me get this straight... You believe the following..
Man is born with the Spirit of God out of the womb and once he/she sins and has the knowledge of what sin is there is Spiritual death. Somewhere down the road(or not...) out of the clear blue sky the now dead in the Spirit person who CANNOT understand the things of the Spirit suddenly has a flash back and seeks Christ and is not made into their old self which if taken at face value is worthy of salvation being in the Spirit from the womb, but is made into a NEW creature… Why not just reverted back the good enough creature in the Spirit you were born as? Why the NEW heart and Spirit?( Ezekiel 36:26)
And if that is the case… How does sin after the SECOND spiritual birth not send a person back into a spiritual death as it after the FIRST spiritual birth?
When I consider the following verse and your view what is the point of the distinctions between the two births since everyone(according to you) is born of the Spirit at birth...
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
As we continue...
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Yes we know who is born of the Spirit, everyone... Right? At least once in their life...
What about the verses regarding being sealed by the Holy Spirit? They don't take affect till after the SECOND spiritual birth?
It would seem that while in the FIRST spiritual birth Christ isn't much of an Advocate, since after the SECOND spiritual birth He will not lose one, none can remove them from His hand because greater is God... Why is that? Why does the first time around in the Spirit SOOOOOOOOOOO different than the second time around... It surely can't be a different Spirit since there is only ONE Holy Spirit...
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/24/2008 5:25:02 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Ok... Let me get this straight... You believe the following..
where we are having our disconnect is the differnce between spiritual and physical deaths. i understand scripture to teach that all men are cursed to die physically because of adam's sin
1 cor 15
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive
i understand the 1 cor 15 passage to be speaking of physical death and bodily resuurection, it is not dealing with the "spirit"
the difficulty in this passage is that paul refers to the resurrection body as spiritual
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
but again reading the whole chapter it is clear that he is speaking of the ressurection body. note in verse 49 that bearing the image of the heavenly is yet future.
babies are born in physical earthly bodies bodies
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
as such they need a saviour to gain the promise of heavenly/impersihable/immortal body. they have not sinned and as such they have not hardened thier hearts toward God.
romans 1
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
note paul's progression, they knew God but did not honor God, THEN their heart was darkened. dont know how you darken a dead heart, can you explain that to me.
paul tells us in romans 7 that once he was alive, can you give me your explanation of that passage.
but back to romans 1 we read
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
in order to not acknowledge God any longer means that they had to acknowledge God in the first place, and again notice the progression of paul's thought, they no longer acknowledge God and then they were given over to a depraved mind, they did not start with one, again pls explain to me how a person with a depraved mind gets turned over to a depraved mind
i dont believe that babies have the abilities that paul speaks of in romans 1, perhaps you do believe that babies have the ability to understand this
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor F14 Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
your viewpoint seems to be that babies do make these distinctions, remeber also that it for the reasaons just posted that the wrath of God is poured out on babies.
what does paul tells us about babies in the womb in romans 9
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad,
it seems that they had not yet commited personal sin
quote:
When I consider the following verse and your view what is the point of the distinctions between the two births since everyone(according to you) is born of the Spirit at birth...
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
As we continue...
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John
let us put the words of john in parrallel with paul
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body
we know that paul in 1 cor 15 was talking about the physical body and it meshes with john 3
john tells us the ultimate goal of salvation
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
this to is speaking to the resurection body as 1cor 15 and 2 cor 5 speak.
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/24/2008 5:55:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
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Do you believe man is born with Holy Spirit out of the womb?
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/24/2008 6:32:55 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
babies are born in physical earthly bodies bodies
and with the Holy Spirit according to you, correct?
quote:
as such they need a saviour to gain the promise of heavenly/impersihable/immortal body. they have not sinned and as such they have not hardened thier hearts toward God.
Why? The wages of sin is death... According to your view they don't need Jesus... His blood will do what for one who is (according to you) without sin, ALIVE in the Spirit( You won't answer this, but it's all I can fathom it could be...) The plan of salvation would exclude you view of babies...
quote:
romans 1
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
note paul's progression, they knew God but did not honor God, THEN their heart was darkened. dont know how you darken a dead heart, can you explain that to me.
Knowledge of God doesn't mean they have a relationship with God...
Pharoah's heart was harden as it was already hard... And what is a FOOLISH heart? One that honors God?
quote:
paul tells us in romans 7 that once he was alive, can you give me your explanation of that passage.
Alive in what? The Spirit?
If so...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
If Paul was already ALIVE in the Spirit why later was there condemnation?
You may want to believe that because Paul didn't think he was sinning that he was alive, but it's a lie... Paul was kidding himself... When he was killing Christians he didn't believe it was sinful, and I can tell you without a doubt he wasn't ALIVE in the Spirit doing so...
You are taking his claim of being alive in his own self rightoues as being alive in the Spirit.. Problem being that his actions says other wise and his LATER conversion to the TRUTH caps it off...
quote:
but back to romans 1 we read
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
in order to not acknowledge God any longer means that they had to acknowledge God in the first place, and again notice the progression of paul's thought, they no longer acknowledge God and then they were given over to a depraved mind, they did not start with one, again pls explain to me how a person with a depraved mind gets turned over to a depraved mind
What does acknowledge God amount too? Salvation? No... People have a general knowledge of God, some people even dig a bit deeper, even might seemed to be saved only later to go back, again, go back to their own ways...
They were turned over to the fullness of their sinful nature...
quote:
what does paul tells us about babies in the womb in romans 9
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad,
it seems that they had not yet commited personal sin
Yet, God chose one over the other to make a point... That point being election... That doesn't seem to fit your view point...
John
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/25/2008 3:22:27 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Do you believe man is born with Holy Spirit out of the womb?
John
no
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/25/2008 3:45:16 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
as such they need a saviour to gain the promise of heavenly/impersihable/immortal body. they have not sinned and as such they have not hardened thier hearts toward God.
Why? The wages of sin is death... According to your view they don't need Jesus... His blood will do what for one who is (according to you) without sin, ALIVE in the Spirit( You won't answer this, but it's all I can fathom it could be...) The plan of salvation would exclude you view of babies...
you havent proven that infants and those in the womb sin, or that we go to hell for someone else's sin. we have already seen that there can be a time in the womb when they havent sinned. we spoke of the incident in numbers 14 . how did God address those children
39 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.
note the difference between the sons and the little ones, they have no knowledge of good and evil. let's look at where moses used that expression earlier in his writing
gen 3
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever
it was only after adam sinned that he knew good and evil, and those little ones did not know good and evil, they were like adam before his sin
quote:
romans 1
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
note paul's progression, they knew God but did not honor God, THEN their heart was darkened. dont know how you darken a dead heart, can you explain that to me
Knowledge of God doesn't mean they have a relationship with God...
Pharoah's heart was harden as it was already hard...
i dont understand this could you elaborate a little more. pharoah's heart was hardened because it was already hard, was it not hard enough, was there some possibility it would become soft? why the need to harden it more?
quote:
paul tells us in romans 7 that once he was alive, can you give me your explanation of that passage
Paul was kidding himself... When he was killing Christians he didn't believe it was sinful, and I can tell you without a doubt he wasn't ALIVE in the Spirit doing so...
You are taking his claim of being alive in his own self rightoues as being alive in the Spirit.. Problem being that his actions says other wise and his LATER conversion to the TRUTH caps it off...
the problem i have with that explanation is that paul doesnt even mention that he only thought he was alive. paul says that he was alive then when the commandment came he died. he doesnt mention killing christians, he was talking about the law of moses. the law moses prescribes sacrifices for sin that every jew practiced. paul was an observant jew. i find it difficult to understand from romans 7 that paul thought he was sinless as an adult because he would have had to have understood that the law of moses was wrong when it prescribes the sacrifices for sin. none of that is in the passage, it has to be imported into the passage.
< Message edited by john_mark -- 4/25/2008 4:45:11 PM >
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/25/2008 5:51:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Do you believe man is born with Holy Spirit out of the womb?
John
no
Ok... So when Paul speaks of being alive prior to his salvation what is he referring to?
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/25/2008 5:57:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
it was only after adam sinned that he knew good and evil, and those little ones did not know good and evil, they were like adam before his sin
If that's the case we would all have our time in the Garden, right?
quote:
the problem i have with that explanation is that paul doesnt even mention that he only thought he was alive.
The problem with your explanation is that the bible says man is either alive in the Spirit are dead in the flesh...
quote:
paul says that he was alive then when the commandment came he died. he doesnt mention killing christians, he was talking about the law of moses. the law moses prescribes sacrifices for sin that every jew practiced. paul was an observant jew. i find it difficult to understand from romans 7 that paul thought he was sinless as an adult because he would have had to have understood that the law of moses was wrong when it prescribes the sacrifices for sin. none of that is in the passage, it has to be imported into the passage.
Self righteous and sinless are not the same....
Ok... So given your view what was Paul alive in?
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 4/25/2008 6:50:50 PM >
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/27/2008 9:01:46 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Do you believe man is born with Holy Spirit out of the womb?
John
no
Ok... So when Paul speaks of being alive prior to his salvation what is he referring to?
John
he had not chosen death, neither had he chosen life, he was incapable of chosing either. but once the law of moses became understandable to him he chose death as all people do. either babies die for their own sins and stand before the judgement seat and give an account of their own actions, or they stand before the judgement seat and give an account of adam's sins. scripture seems to me to indicate we will be judged for our own sins. can you post scripture that shows we suffer damnation for some one else's sins, or scripture that shows that infants and those in the womb commit sins. i have already posted 2 examples that show infants without either sin or without the requisite knowledge.
< Message edited by john_mark -- 4/27/2008 10:13:23 AM >
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 5/7/2008 9:44:02 AM
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dontbelonghere
Posts: 99
Joined: 3/25/2007
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I believe my son is with the Lord, and gain comfort from this. And I believe this is biblically backed.
If you look to David in the bible, when his infant son died, he had peace and comfort that he would see him again. When his older son died, he mourned and was sad because he knew he wouldn't. To me, this is reason to believe that infants go to heaven when they die.~~
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 5/7/2008 7:25:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dontbelonghere
I believe my son is with the Lord, and gain comfort from this. And I believe this is biblically backed.
If you look to David in the bible, when his infant son died, he had peace and comfort that he would see him again. When his older son died, he mourned and was sad because he knew he wouldn't. To me, this is reason to believe that infants go to heaven when they die.~~
David's son represents all children? For the matter does verse say he will be in heaven with his son?
That's some pretty shaking ground to grant salvation to a never mentioned group in the bible...
How do infants circumvent the very clear plan of salvation? And how do exclude them from makind?
John
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