A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (Full Version)

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cowgurl4christ -> A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/16/2008 12:10:14 AM)

I've been a Christian all 21 years of my life, and I recently decided to re-study the Trinity...something I've actually not done since I was a kid. I didn't fully realize until now how hard it is to comprehend! As a child I guess I just went with the flow. Re-reading some passages and some extra study features in the back of my Bible, I arrived with a few questions:

1) When I go to Heaven some day, will I see both Jesus and God (Jesus at the right hand of God?), or since they're one and the same, would He appear as one person?

2) Is the Holy Spirit a person? A conscience?...What is it exactly? I understand it's a guide to help us make the right choices, but the Bible makes it sound like it's a person.

3) What happened to people when they died before Jesus died on the cross for our sins?

I don't understand how Jesus is called the Son of God if he is also God the Father...wouldn't a more proper title to give to Jesus be 'God's human form'? I misunderstanding something here. . .

Your answers are much appreciated!



rhondaj2900 -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/16/2008 10:25:05 AM)

[:)][code][/code]

I believe I may be able to answer a few of your questions.

The trinity is made up of God the Father, Jesus the son of man and God and the Holy Spirit which is the helper.

Jesus is a part of God just as the yoke is part of the egg, the Holy Spirit is part of God just as the white is part of the egg. You have one egg but different parts. Everything was created by Jesus because God spoke it into existence.Hence the word of God is also Jesus. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1-2.

Go to genuses. when God is creating man He said "Let us create man in OUR own image.

If I can be of further help contact me at rhondaj2900@yahoo.com



RangerForGod -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/16/2008 12:39:35 PM)

I asked similar questions a few days ago. I found this site to be helpful:
http://www.allaboutgod.com/holy-spirit.htm



CherishedbyGod -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/16/2008 4:30:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cowgurl4christ

I've been a Christian all 21 years of my life, and I recently decided to re-study the Trinity...something I've actually not done since I was a kid. I didn't fully realize until now how hard it is to comprehend! As a child I guess I just went with the flow. Re-reading some passages and some extra study features in the back of my Bible, I arrived with a few questions:

1) When I go to Heaven some day, will I see both Jesus and God (Jesus at the right hand of God?), or since they're one and the same, would He appear as one person?

2) Is the Holy Spirit a person? A conscience?...What is it exactly? I understand it's a guide to help us make the right choices, but the Bible makes it sound like it's a person.

3) What happened to people when they died before Jesus died on the cross for our sins?

I don't understand how Jesus is called the Son of God if he is also God the Father...wouldn't a more proper title to give to Jesus be 'God's human form'? I misunderstanding something here. . .

Your answers are much appreciated!


When you say you have been a Christian all your life, do you mean you were born into a Christian family or? Would you be so kind as to elaborate on that for me? I am a little confused what you mean[;)]

Due to time restraints, I am only going to address one of your questions. - #2. Yes the Holy Spirit is a Person. The Holy Spirit is a person not an it. He is the beloved third person of the Trinity. He is as much God as the Father and God the Son.

Here are a few verses about Him that our Lord shared when He was here on earth..

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

He is another, comforter, just like Jesus. He intercedes for us, leads us, convicts us of sin, draws us to the Father, teaches us through Scripture and empowers us. One of my favorite things He does is He reveals the nature and character of the Lord Jesus Christ to me[:)]

He loves you, adores you, wants a relationship with you, yearns over you, longs for you and has you in His great heart of love and affection just as the Father and the Son do.....



cowgurl4christ -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/19/2008 11:34:20 AM)

quote:

When you say you have been a Christian all your life, do you mean you were born into a Christian family or? Would you be so kind as to elaborate on that for me? I am a little confused what you mean


Well, I was born into a Christian family, but I was saved at age 5. So my mistake: 16 years... I strongly believe, I just ran into these questions like many, if not all believers, do at some point.


Regarding your response: So does the Holy Spirit look like Jesus? Is he kind of like a twin, sharing the same features?



mvic -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/19/2008 1:11:21 PM)

Hi,

I think you've probably answered your own question when you say "as a child ... I just went with the flow". I believe that's exactly what God wants from us sometimes. To believe like children and to have faith like children.

When we were young we believed in the Trinity, the Resurrection and other Bible stories we were taught. We did not question them. But as we grow older we use human nature's curiosity and perhaps a touch of cynicism and we question. Nothing wrong with that I suppose - it's in our nature to question.

Yet, having said this. I believe there are times when He just wants us to believe. To have (blind) faith. To believe when our common sense tells us not to.

As I see it - and I may be wrong - God always existed and created the universe and all that's in it. In order to teach us clearly about Himself and His love for us He came down to earth as a human being. In order to do so He had to be born of a human being and be raised as a human being - although He was God as well as being human. To help us understand this Jesus called Himself the Son of God. When He (i.e. Jesus and God) eventually left us He sent the Holy Spirit, first on the apostles, and then others, to guide us and teach us to spread His word.

How each one of these beings looks like I suppose is immaterial for now. No one can really answer this for you with any certainty, and neither can anyone really answer your other questions. But when you and I get to meet Him then I suppose He'll tell us the answers.

I hope this has helped just a little.

God bless.



figmentPez -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/19/2008 2:02:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

No one can really answer this for you with any certainty, and neither can anyone really answer your other questions.


I've all but given up posting on these forums. For years I have posted in defense of trinitarian doctrine, and it is ignorant posts like this that have led me to such despair that I just can't take the emotional strain of defending truth, along with all the other troubles in my life. However, cowgurl4christ deserves to hear the truth.

And that truth is that SCRIPTURE ANSWERS HER QUESTIONS!!!!!. We don't have to wait until heaven to know these things about God, because He has already revealed them to us! Trinitarian doctrine is not some man-made fantasy, it is merely an accurate summation of the teachings of scripture!

Now, as to the real and truthful answers to Cowgurl's questions:

quote:

ORIGINAL: cowgurl4christ

1) When I go to Heaven some day, will I see both Jesus and God (Jesus at the right hand of God?), or since they're one and the same, would He appear as one person?


The Father and the Son are indeed one God, however they are not the same person. You will most certainly see both the Father and the Son when you see heaven. We can say this for certain because this is what John saw in his Revelation, it is what David saw in his prophetic vision of the future, and it is what Jesus Christ said we will see:

Revelation 5:13-14
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." 14And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen " And the elders fell down and worshiped.

We can see here, both "Him who sits on the throne" (the Father) and the Lamb (the Son).

Daniel 7:13-14
13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

This vision of Daniel's is the same scene that John saw. The Son of Man is Jesus Christ, is the Lamb. The Ancient of Days is the Father, is the Him who sits on the throne. Revelation chapters four and five are parallel to Daniel 7:13-14. Both John and Daniel saw the Father and the Son as distinct persons, so will all of creation when we come before the throne of God.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, " You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Here, Jesus Christ tells us the same thing. He is directly referencing the prophecy of Daniel. That prophecy of Daniel 7:13-14 is the reason that Jesus Christ called Himself the Son of Man.

quote:

2) Is the Holy Spirit a person? A conscience?...What is it exactly? I understand it's a guide to help us make the right choices, but the Bible makes it sound like it's a person.


Yes, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the triune God. Others have given you decent answers about the Holy Spirit.

quote:

Regarding your response: So does the Holy Spirit look like Jesus? Is he kind of like a twin, sharing the same features?


The Father and the Son "look" exactly alike. The Son is the very image of the Father. The Son tells us that if we know Him, we know the Father as well. This might be due to the Father/Son relationship that they have, but I think it applies to the Holy Spirit (who proceeds from) as well. Most likely, when we see God directly for the first time, we will see that the Holy Spirit "looks" just like the Father and the Son.

quote:

3) What happened to people when they died before Jesus died on the cross for our sins?


That question is a little tricky. God isn't bound by time as we are. There isn't really a "before" Jesus died for God.
Revelation 13:8
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Admittedly, this is only one possible translation of the passage (it's also possible to translate it as "everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."), but it's hardly the only passage in the Bible that has a double meaning that is definitely meant to be taken both ways. In either case, God knew, before He created the world, that He would have to send His Son to redeem it. The letters to the Hebrews and Romans tell us that those before Christ were saved the same way as those after, by faith. Read Hebrews chapter 11, and how it tells us about examples of faith from the OT, and read Romans 4, where we are told that "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (v. 4:5) and "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." (v. 4:13)

There are whole threads on this subject in the Salvation Issues folder. Perhaps someone can help you find the ones already going.

quote:

I don't understand how Jesus is called the Son of God if he is also God the Father...wouldn't a more proper title to give to Jesus be 'God's human form'? I misunderstanding something here. . .


Jesus is not God the Father. The Son and the Father are distinct persons, despite being one God. Not only that, but Jesus Christ is eternally the Son of God. The Son of God has always been the Son of the Father, He did not become so at the incarnation. How do we know this? Well, many passages, mostly in John, tell us that the Son is the Only Begotten Son of God. Now, way back in Genesis, the Bible teaches us that each begets after it's own kind. This is fairly easy to see. If you take the begotten seed of an apple tree, and plant it, you will grow an apple tree. A grain of wheat will grow more wheat. A cat will give birth to kittens. A horse will beget horses. Humans beget humans. To claim that God, divinity, begat humanity is as absurd as planting a sunflower seed and having a trout grow from it. The Son of God is God. When Jesus Christ, already the Son of God, became incarnate, He became the Son of Man as well.

Now, since we know that the Son of God is "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father." (just as the Nicene Creed says), we can from there understand that the Son of God is "eternally begotten of the Father." We know this because of the nature of God, which is unchanging.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God," who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

This is God's nature, to be who HE IS. There are many passages besides these that tell us the same thing, that God does not change. Knowing these two things, that the Son of God really is God and that God is unchanging, we can know that the begetting of the Son could not have taken place at any point in time, it cannot be dependent on creation, or God would have changed. The Son is indeed begotten from eternity of the Father.



heavensmailman -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/20/2008 3:29:30 PM)

God's word is mistranslated, misunderstood and misused, but can never be changed.
Peace



jachinboaz -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/21/2008 1:08:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

No one can really answer this for you with any certainty, and neither can anyone really answer your other questions.


I've all but given up posting on these forums. For years I have posted in defense of trinitarian doctrine, and it is ignorant posts like this that have led me to such despair that I just can't take the emotional strain of defending truth, along with all the other troubles in my life. However, cowgurl4christ deserves to hear the truth.

And that truth is that SCRIPTURE ANSWERS HER QUESTIONS!!!!!. We don't have to wait until heaven to know these things about God, because He has already revealed them to us! Trinitarian doctrine is not some man-made fantasy, it is merely an accurate summation of the teachings of scripture!

Now, as to the real and truthful answers to Cowgurl's questions:

quote:

ORIGINAL: cowgurl4christ

1) When I go to Heaven some day, will I see both Jesus and God (Jesus at the right hand of God?), or since they're one and the same, would He appear as one person?


The Father and the Son are indeed one God, however they are not the same person. You will most certainly see both the Father and the Son when you see heaven. We can say this for certain because this is what John saw in his Revelation, it is what David saw in his prophetic vision of the future, and it is what Jesus Christ said we will see:

Revelation 5:13-14
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." 14And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen " And the elders fell down and worshiped.

We can see here, both "Him who sits on the throne" (the Father) and the Lamb (the Son).

Daniel 7:13-14
13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

This vision of Daniel's is the same scene that John saw. The Son of Man is Jesus Christ, is the Lamb. The Ancient of Days is the Father, is the Him who sits on the throne. Revelation chapters four and five are parallel to Daniel 7:13-14. Both John and Daniel saw the Father and the Son as distinct persons, so will all of creation when we come before the throne of God.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, " You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Here, Jesus Christ tells us the same thing. He is directly referencing the prophecy of Daniel. That prophecy of Daniel 7:13-14 is the reason that Jesus Christ called Himself the Son of Man.

quote:

2) Is the Holy Spirit a person? A conscience?...What is it exactly? I understand it's a guide to help us make the right choices, but the Bible makes it sound like it's a person.


Yes, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the triune God. Others have given you decent answers about the Holy Spirit.

quote:

Regarding your response: So does the Holy Spirit look like Jesus? Is he kind of like a twin, sharing the same features?


The Father and the Son "look" exactly alike. The Son is the very image of the Father. The Son tells us that if we know Him, we know the Father as well. This might be due to the Father/Son relationship that they have, but I think it applies to the Holy Spirit (who proceeds from) as well. Most likely, when we see God directly for the first time, we will see that the Holy Spirit "looks" just like the Father and the Son.

quote:

3) What happened to people when they died before Jesus died on the cross for our sins?


That question is a little tricky. God isn't bound by time as we are. There isn't really a "before" Jesus died for God.
Revelation 13:8
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Admittedly, this is only one possible translation of the passage (it's also possible to translate it as "everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."), but it's hardly the only passage in the Bible that has a double meaning that is definitely meant to be taken both ways. In either case, God knew, before He created the world, that He would have to send His Son to redeem it. The letters to the Hebrews and Romans tell us that those before Christ were saved the same way as those after, by faith. Read Hebrews chapter 11, and how it tells us about examples of faith from the OT, and read Romans 4, where we are told that "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (v. 4:5) and "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." (v. 4:13)

There are whole threads on this subject in the Salvation Issues folder. Perhaps someone can help you find the ones already going.

quote:

I don't understand how Jesus is called the Son of God if he is also God the Father...wouldn't a more proper title to give to Jesus be 'God's human form'? I misunderstanding something here. . .


Jesus is not God the Father. The Son and the Father are distinct persons, despite being one God. Not only that, but Jesus Christ is eternally the Son of God. The Son of God has always been the Son of the Father, He did not become so at the incarnation. How do we know this? Well, many passages, mostly in John, tell us that the Son is the Only Begotten Son of God. Now, way back in Genesis, the Bible teaches us that each begets after it's own kind. This is fairly easy to see. If you take the begotten seed of an apple tree, and plant it, you will grow an apple tree. A grain of wheat will grow more wheat. A cat will give birth to kittens. A horse will beget horses. Humans beget humans. To claim that God, divinity, begat humanity is as absurd as planting a sunflower seed and having a trout grow from it. The Son of God is God. When Jesus Christ, already the Son of God, became incarnate, He became the Son of Man as well.

Now, since we know that the Son of God is "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father." (just as the Nicene Creed says), we can from there understand that the Son of God is "eternally begotten of the Father." We know this because of the nature of God, which is unchanging.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God," who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

This is God's nature, to be who HE IS. There are many passages besides these that tell us the same thing, that God does not change. Knowing these two things, that the Son of God really is God and that God is unchanging, we can know that the begetting of the Son could not have taken place at any point in time, it cannot be dependent on creation, or God would have changed. The Son is indeed begotten from eternity of the Father.


Good scriptures there.

I have some questions. These are just my thoughts and opinions.

Now above you said: Jesus Christ is eternally the Son of God.

According to Romans 1 verse 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

In that verse it just told me that there is no eternal Son of God in heaven. I could not find any verse in scripture that says there is an eternal Son of God.

Jesus was not even declared to BE the Son of God until He was resurrected.

Take a look at this next verse.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

We know God is omni present. He is a Spirit. He is everywhere. Even the temple that Solomon built could not contain Him. Even the heavens cannot contain Him.

How is Jesus literally standing on the right hand of God if God is everywhere?

Where is God's right hand at if God is everywhere? Where is His left hand? Where is His back? Where is His head? Where is His feet?

Or is there a deeper revelation there?

Another scripture.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

It looks like there is a trinity God up there. Very convincing scripture. Take a look at the one right after it.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

What happened? Why didn't God say: So God created man in their own image, in the image of God created they him; male and female created they them?

What just happened?



bob97 -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/21/2008 2:04:18 PM)

quote:

Where is God's right hand at if God is everywhere? Where is His left hand? Where is His back? Where is His head? Where is His feet?


It is the Ruach of God who is everywhere.

quote:

What happened? Why didn't God say: So God created man in their own image, in the image of God created they him; male and female created they them?


Because there is only one God; the Son and Spirit are manifestations of the one God, projections of His personality. Because God is without form, Christ is the perfect image of God in physical form.

Look at it like this...you are actually spirit and being spirit to interrelate in this world you need an outward appearance (hands and feet)...presto the body.

Bob



prophet -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/21/2008 11:05:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97



Because there is only one God; the Son and Spirit are manifestations of the one God, projections of His personality. Because God is without form, Christ is the perfect image of God in physical form.

Look at it like this...you are actually spirit and being spirit to interrelate in this world you need an outward appearance (hands and feet)...presto the body.

Bob


By manifestations, do you mean they existed together as different persons or just different forms at the same time?



bob97 -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 12:07:04 AM)

quote:

By manifestations, do you mean they existed together as different persons or just different forms at the same time?


We know that God and Christ existed independently at the same time, God in Heaven and Christ on earth. We know that the Holy Spirit was within man in Acts when Christ appeared to Saul. We know that Christ sets at the right hand of God today while the Ruach is on earth dwelling in the elect. So I guess my answer would have to be yes…all exist independently at the same time. At least today they do.

To answer your initial question, if we go by the human description of personality:
[n] the complex of all the attributes--behavioral, temperamental, emotional and mental--that characterize a unique individual; "their different reactions reflected their very different personalities"; "it is his nature to help others"

And if we key on the description of, "their different reactions reflected their very different personalities", you would have to question that they have different personalities because we know them all to be God. I would have to see them as being extensions of the One God.

But I wouldn't take this statement to the bank.


Bob



jachinboaz -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 2:12:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

Where is God's right hand at if God is everywhere? Where is His left hand? Where is His back? Where is His head? Where is His feet?


It is the Ruach of God who is everywhere.

quote:

What happened? Why didn't God say: So God created man in their own image, in the image of God created they him; male and female created they them?


Because there is only one God; the Son and Spirit are manifestations of the one God, projections of His personality. Because God is without form, Christ is the perfect image of God in physical form.

Look at it like this...you are actually spirit and being spirit to interrelate in this world you need an outward appearance (hands and feet)...presto the body.

Bob


So are you saying that Jesus is the Father?



bob97 -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 10:23:39 AM)

quote:

So are you saying that Jesus is the Father?


There is only one God.

Bob



jachinboaz -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 1:30:46 PM)

If you say that there is only one God then to the best of my knowledge, you are saying Jesus is the Father because when the scriptures keep saying there is only one God, I believe it to be only one God. Not two or three otherwise Jesus would have said so.

I know for a fact I went to school when I was a kid and to the best of my ability, I passed their tests, especially when it came to math. I know when the teacher says: If you have 1 apple and you add 2 more apples to that count, how many apples do you have? The answer is 3 apples. If you have 3 apples and you take 2 apples away, you have 1 apple left over. So according to the schooling that I have done, I passed the tests. Otherwise the teacher would have said: (If you have 1 apple and I give you 2 more apples, how many apples would you have? I would have said 3 and she would have said: Your wrong, there is only 1 apple.) Does 1 apple equal 3 apples? No it equals 1 apple.

Why is it that people say there are 3 persons up there in heaven and they believe it to be 1 God? Especially when people say those 3 persons have a will of their own? I know very well it was God who is our great mathematician.


You say:It is the Ruach of God who is everywhere. If the word ruach generally means wind, breath, mind, spirit, then That ruach is God. How does that explain where God's physical right hand is at if He is everywhere? Or his ruach is everywhere? If you say that ruach is separate from God in anyway size shape or form, you are taking away from God and adding other Gods up there. God does not share His glory with anyone else for He is a jealous God.

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

How come the Lord keeps bringing up I I I I, not we we we but I. I is singular, not we for we is plural. He never said we are a jealous God. He said I am a jealous God. How simple is that?

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

He says it again to worship NO OTHER GOD. People have bowed down to worship Jesus. What does that tell you? He is the Father because He is a JEALOUS God. If Jesus was not the Father and they bowed down to Him, the Father would have killed Him right there.

23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.


JOS 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a JEALOUS GOD; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Again the scripture says the Lord thy God. He is a jealous God. He will not let anyone bow down to any other God.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.


He is saying here that there is no other God. He said: I am He. He did not say: We are they.

Did you know that even the jews do not believe in a trinity Doctrine? They think we are heresy for believing in that. They believe in a messiah that will come and He is God alone. They believe in One God.

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

When God was saying us there, He was talking about His attributes.

Love, patience, mercy wrath, knowledge, peace, joy, etc, etc...

Without these attributes, we could never be in His image. All of the attributes of God is what makes God to be God.

Before God created anything, was there a body of flesh in heaven standing by the Father? No. If Jesus was the Son of God in heaven back before the earth was created then How can flesh put on flesh? Could Jesus who was in heaven in a fleshly body come down and put on another fleshly body?

If I were to take my body and run into another person with it, would I then have another fleshly body over this body? You go try to put your body of flesh into another body of flesh without mutilating it and see if you can have it totally cover you. If there was no image of God in fleshly form in heaven then what image was He talking about? The father is a Spirit. He had no fleshly body also otherwise He would have said He was flesh instead of a spirit. If God is without form, how can Christ be in His perfect image, in Physical form? God had no form to go by. The only image that Jesus was made in was God's expressed image. Expression.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

In the greek, Word is Logos


of speech

1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
2. what someone has said
1. a word
2. the sayings of God
3. decree, mandate or order

So Jesus is the expression of God. Or expressed image of God.



bob97 -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 1:54:25 PM)

quote:

So Jesus is the expression of God. Or expressed image of God.


What did I say in post 10?

Bob



jachinboaz -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 2:08:20 PM)

Yes or No? Is Jesus the Father?



bob97 -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 3:00:59 PM)

I said that Christ was the prefect image of God in the flesh...They are one and the same.

There is only one God!

Bob



CurlyQ19 -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 9:45:10 PM)

i am a little confused with the term "persons of God" that are being used in this thread! I have not once read in the Bible that God was described as persons, but manifestations i have read of! and the verse that is being used that Jesus is at the right hand of God kind of goes against the actual doctrine of the trinity because right there shows that there is a separation! the doctrine of the trinity states that they are distinct, and i believe that verse means that power was given!



bob97 -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 11:12:11 PM)

There is no separation between Christ and God…don’t you understand they are the same. There is only one God, not two and Christ is that perfect image of God, which otherwise could not be seen. Man is a spirit but we cannot see that spirit but man has a body which is the house for that spirit which can be seen. God is a Spirit and cannot be seen but we can see the perfect image of God who is Christ

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

I Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Conclusion:
God has no image. He cannot be seen by the human eye, but creation points to His existence. His Son, Jesus testified to His existence and desire to be sought by His creatures. He also provided us with an example of how to live our lives seeking and serving God.

Bob



figmentPez -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 11:17:33 PM)

Before I respond to any posters, I want to put for this challenge to all who deny that God eternally exists as the three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One simple question, a question that Jesus Christ asked His disciples.

Who do YOU say that the Son of Man is?

Daniel 7:13-14
13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Read this passage and tell me who the Son of Man is. Please be detailed, and make sure that any terms you use in your reply are clearly defined by your answer. Also, answer these questions: Who is the Ancient of Days? Does the Son of Man deserve what He receives in this passage? Why or why not? Do you see any parallels between this passage and Revelation chapter 5?



figmentPez -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 11:30:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jachinboaz

Now above you said: Jesus Christ is eternally the Son of God.

According to Romans 1 verse 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

In that verse it just told me that there is no eternal Son of God in heaven. I could not find any verse in scripture that says there is an eternal Son of God.


You're clearly misunderstanding that verse. Here are some verses that refute your interpretation:

Mark 1:11
and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Matthew 16:16
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."


We have both the heavenly witness of the Father, and the earlthy witness of Peter (with knowledge revealed to him by heaven) that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, before His resurrection. Also, we are told that God sent His Son into the world. How could God send His Son into the world, if Jesus wasn't His Son until after the resurrection?

Clearly your understanding of Romans 1:4 is false. As to your claim that you can't find any verse that says that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, I'm betting you wont' find any verses that say, verbatim, that Jesus Christ is God, either. That doesn't mean that Jesus Christ isn't God, it just means that Christian doctrine is not about sound bites. I've given you the scriptures that show us that the begetting of Jesus Christ must be from eternity.

quote:

How is Jesus literally standing on the right hand of God if God is everywhere?


Jesus Christ is God. He can both be literally at the right hand of the Father, and everywhere. God is not limited by your foolish assumptions.

quote:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

It looks like there is a trinity God up there. Very convincing scripture. Take a look at the one right after it.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

What happened? Why didn't God say: So God created man in their own image, in the image of God created they him; male and female created they them?

What just happened?


God is triune, but man is NOT! God did indeed make man in His image, but He did not make us exactly the same as He is. He did not make us divine and He did not make us triune. The Father really is the Father of the Son, but my body is not the son of my soul or my spirit. The father/son relationship does not exist anywhere within my being, nor within any human.

I suspect the verse you quoted tells us the most important part of being made in God's image "let them have dominion", but that's another thread. Being made in God's image has nothing to do with the relatiosnhip between the Father and the Son.



figmentPez -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 11:42:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

It is the Ruach of God who is everywhere.


Ruach is Hebrew for spirit/breath? The Son of God is not the Holy Spirit. Nor is Jesus Christ divine simply because of the spirit of the Father within Him. The Son of God is God in His own right.

quote:

Because there is only one God; the Son and Spirit are manifestations of the one God, projections of His personality. Because God is without form, Christ is the perfect image of God in physical form.


First, let us start with the relevant definitions of manifest and manifesation:
Manifest:
1. readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain: a manifest error.
3. to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding; show plainly: He manifested his approval with a hearty laugh.
manifestation
1. an act of manifesting.
2. the state of being manifested.
3. outward or perceptible indication; materialization:

Manifestation is absolutely not the word that should be used of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three are not manifestations of God. Each is eternal and they are who they are. The Son is not merely how God appeared to humanity, the Son really is the son of His Father. Regardless of what word should be used, it can be definitively said that manifestation is certainly not correct.

Here are some uses of the word manifest in scripture:

1 Timothy 3:16
16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

1 Cor 12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 John 3:8
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 Peter 1:20
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now, Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the Son of God, most certainly did manifest Himself. He made Himself evident to humanity by being revealed in the flesh. He took on flesh and was seen by humanity. However, the Son of God is not just that manifestation. The Son is eternal. The Word of God existed in the beginning. Jesus Christ said ""Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." The Son, speaking to the Father, said that He existed before the world was, and had glory with the Father.

God does have many manifestations in scripture. God manifest as a burning bush to Moses, but God existed before and after that burning bush. The Holy Spirit manifest as a dove and as tongues of fire, but the Holy Spirit did not only exist when those manifestatations were present, the Holy Spirit is eternal. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are, however, treated by scripture completely differently than any of the manifestations of God in scripture. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are revealed by scripture to be something more than just ways that God interacts with humanity. In fact, they are clearly defined by scripture as relating to each other before creation. If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were merely manifestations of God, then they would only have idenity in relation to something in creation. However, scripture tells us that Father, Son and Holy Spirit existed in relationship with each other before anything was created at all!



figmentPez -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 11:53:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

I said that Christ was the prefect image of God in the flesh...They are one and the same.


Please explain these verses then:

John 6:38-40
38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

So, who came down from heaven, and who sent him? Whose will is being done, and whose will is not being done? Who will be raising up believers on the last day?

John 8:16-19
16"But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18"I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." 19So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."

Who testifies in this verse? Who are the two witnesses that Jesus Christ is talking about?

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Whose spirit is being committed here and who is being addressed?

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Who had glory with the Father before the world began?



figmentPez -> RE: A Few questions regarding Jesus and God the Father (4/22/2008 11:54:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CurlyQ19

i am a little confused with the term "persons of God" that are being used in this thread! I have not once read in the Bible that God was described as persons, but manifestations i have read of! and the verse that is being used that Jesus is at the right hand of God kind of goes against the actual doctrine of the trinity because right there shows that there is a separation! the doctrine of the trinity states that they are distinct, and i believe that verse means that power was given!


If you think that the Son being at the right hand of the Father is somehow contrary to trinitarian doctrine, then you have no idea what trinitarian doctrine teaches.



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