RE: Worship Leaders (Full Version)

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bluestone -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:30:57 PM)

Our music program was in a shambles from the previous music director.

We went back to basics. dumped the teams, went back to choir, brought back the orchestra and handbell choir, something they had done away with.

different teams bring about competition between teams, something the church does not need. making one team feel special and more "anointed" than the other teams only makes it worse.



bluestone -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:32:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicianDad

I'm not questioning your musical prowess, or your right to call the shots as a worship leader. I just think the idea of seniority due to time in sevice is wrong. I think the idea that someone has a right to be a worship leader is rediculous. Telling would-be professional musicians to stay away form leading worship is pretty reactionary (IMO). Some of what's being said here really comes off as "me first, me first, my turn!!!".


That is not what is being said here!



MusicianDad -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:35:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elastic

quote:

Wow! What a novel idea (sarcasm). Yeah, that would take care of 99% of the crying and jockying going on around this topic. If those who are so hurt over being passed over by "talented babies" were to start, oh say, a church parking lot sweeping ministry, or a church bathroom cleaning ministy, or a take communion to old ladies minisrty, they wouldn't have to go through the heartache of being bumped or having to "clean up the mess". There are activities out there that few want to do and no-one will ever take away.


if you read some of funny_girl's posts in the other worship leader thread, you will see that she thinks once you have been 'promoted' or are a 'seasoned' worship leader, you don't need to do any of the serving...ie cleaning bathrooms, passing out programs, etc, etc, etc.

at least that's what i took from her other postings. please correct me funny_girl if that is not what you meant to say



No, no, I hear ya. I'm not defending her, I just think all the crying is really silly. These are not issues to devide over. I think some people should grow a little thicker skin before they decide to enter the music ministry.



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:38:36 PM)

I personally like sarcasm and write a lot of sarcastic things. I didn't take musiciandad's comment as a put down at all! I thought he was serious. lol

No, that's not what I meant. I tried to explain that it's on an individual basis. It just depends. We will always be His servants, amen! It sounds like in elastic's case, they needed to clean house of the 'stars' and so that has worked out beautifully for them. I've been in the bathroom mopping toilet water and mowing the church grass crying out to God, "Why aren't we breaking through in worship?"

(edited to give credit for good sarcastic comment[:D] )



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:40:27 PM)

He spoke to me on the lawn mower, "You aren't yielding your will mine." Whooow. He confirmed that word when He got me up in the middle of the night after that encounter. I turned on TBN and saw an old video from the 70's I think, of a woman preacher. She said, "He fills when we yield!" Then I watched and could feel the presence of the Lord all over her as she led the multitudes in the song, "He touched me." I didn't know who she was, it was Kathryn Kulhman.



MusicianDad -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:41:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

Our music program was in a shambles from the previous music director.

We went back to basics. dumped the teams, went back to choir, brought back the orchestra and handbell choir, something they had done away with.

different teams bring about competition between teams, something the church does not need. making one team feel special and more "anointed" than the other teams only makes it worse.



That's great. Whatever works for you guys, works. Knock yourselves out and praise God. I love handbell choirs myself. Awesome! If different teams was causing devision, then yeah, get rid of them. We have different teams and havn't had that experience. Again, whatever works, works. As was said just a few posts back, it's not about us. It's about Him. Rock on!



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:44:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicianDad

I'm not questioning your musical prowess, or your right to call the shots as a worship leader. I just think the idea of seniority due to time in sevice is wrong. I think the idea that someone has a right to be a worship leader is rediculous. Telling would-be professional musicians to stay away form leading worship is pretty reactionary (IMO). Some of what's being said here really comes off as "me first, me first, my turn!!!".


That is not what is being said here!



This is what I'm talking about!



elastic -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:50:56 PM)

quote:

It sounds like in elastic's case, they needed to clean house of the 'stars' and so that has worked out beautifully for them


we never actually had to ever clean house of the 'stars'. that is how the ministry has worked since it's inception, it was set up that way in order to prevent the star attitude.

there are still people who are new to the team who feel they are so talented that they get a free pass and don't have to serve or do anything, but they get broken of that habit fairly quickly. they either get with the program or they leave the team on their own.

there isn't room for the rock star mentality...believe me....we have a team of over 100 musicians and singers, many of them who are professionals, in bands, etc, etc. but when they show up to church, none of that matters. who they are, how important they are doesn't matter. they are there to serve and to worship God. even though they have 'paid their dues', they are no better than the rest of us...they serve along side of us. they hand out programs, they man the information tables when needed, they are available to the congregation between services.



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:55:21 PM)

Well, I must of gotten some posts mixed up. Which isn't hard to do. Since you have more experience than I, perhaps you can help me out with some of these other issues that have come up. It broke my heart but this leader that had so much influence in us staying is no longer with us. He would show up when all the grunt work was done. So hard to work with.



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 1:56:49 PM)

Bless you elastic for working with such a large group. I don't think I'm cut out for that much responsibility and I appreciate so much those that are able.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 2:03:29 PM)

Funny_girl . . . may I ask why you simply don't post all your concurrent thoughts in one post?

I don't understand the correlation between a slow internet and posting multiple posts at a time (versus one post).
Are you being spontaneously disconnected from the internet while you are posting?

All of your "somewhat-simultaneous" posts interspersed between other people's post does make the conversation a bit hard to follow.



bluestone -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 2:04:01 PM)

The pint I am trying to make it that church is not American Idol.
Nor should we treat people, talented or not, as though it were.



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 2:10:43 PM)

I'm sorry for the choppy posts.

I live in Guadalajara, Mexico and this internet connection will only allow a certain amount of sentences to post otherwise it won't go through. Many of my posts are saved on Word, until I can post it all.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 2:11:39 PM)

Oh.

Thanks for the explanation.



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 2:12:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

The pint I am trying to make it that church is not American Idol.
Nor should we treat people, talented or not, as though it were.


bluestone, you are heard! And no, we don't want a talent show, but our talented one's need to submit their talents and humbly offer them as a gift to our Lord.



phosadaud -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 3:17:36 PM)

Everyone needs to do that! To say that only the best of the best should is a wee bit arrogant, nor does it allow for growth if you didn't wake up one morning with the most amazing gift known to man.



MusicianDad -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 3:20:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

The pint I am trying to make it that church is not American Idol.
Nor should we treat people, talented or not, as though it were.



No doubt. I mean, we'd have stuck with Daughtry all the way.

Joking, I'm joking!

Seriously though, I grew in a church that was strictly a cappella. Even with only a song leader up front and all the songs coming from a leadership approved hymnal, there was still some fighting over music. No matter what the style, there's a ton of ego tied up in this issue.



sisrev -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 3:36:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: funny_girl
...and humbly offer them as a gift to our Lord.


That would be refreshing



bluestone -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 3:40:04 PM)

[sm=icon_smile_tongue.gif]



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:21:25 PM)

Do some of you feel burned? The way that some of you posters are responding it comes across to me that you've had a lot of hardships to deal with, is that true? Or perhaps you've seen the arrogant or the wrong motivations but not everyone is like that. Leading and submitting is hard and necessary. It happens and it’s not a surprise that music is such a touchy area since that is where Lucifer fell from. We have to guard our thoughts and intentions keeping ourselves pure before the Lord.



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:22:27 PM)

Can we pretend we’re on the same team? Could we talk about how you would encourage someone that doesn't shine like another but is important to the group? How do you avoid jealousy in your groups? Elastic, said that they make no respecter of persons so that each person is equal by keeping a balance between serving 'tables' one week and serving through music the following week. Which I think a true leader is going to be demonstrating servant hood by serving others.



zippty_day -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:24:24 PM)

I find it truly frustrating to place a person where they are not adequately prepared or called. Also not challenging a person to their highest ability or placing them where they are not able to succeed. I like people to be placed in a position, for lack of better term, where they can succeed. I believe that if you find their strengths and encourage them/praise them to do their best that they will rise to your level of expectations. Please don't criticize my terminology. I’m not sure how else to explain it. I obviously come from a different place than you and you probably are able to communicate much more eloquently than I.

(complete thought)



phosadaud -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:33:25 PM)

No I don't feel burned. As I stated in my post, I am very gifted vocally and I am in leadership. I think we just have different ideas regarding leadership. And I wish you would address some of my posts and some of the points I've made.

I could say, "I have the best voice, therefore move aside honey and I'm going to sing up front now because I can better give God glory since I'm better than you. You should serve somewhere else." Or I could recognize that it's not about me at all and that as a leader, my charge is to lead others to be the best they can be and that means, I need to learn to step aside and let someone else lead sometimes - even when maybe I can do a better job. [;)]

By the way, I'd be curious what your take on Jesus washing His disciples feet is.



phosadaud -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:37:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: funny_girl

I find it truly frustrating to place a person where they are not adequately prepared or called. Also not challenging a person to their highest ability or placing them where they are not able to succeed. I like people to be placed in a position, for lack of better term, where they can succeed. I believe that if you find their strengths and encourage them/praise them to do their best that they will rise to your level of expectations. Please don't criticize my terminology. I’m not sure how else to explain it. I obviously come from a different place than you and you probably are able to communicate much more eloquently than I.

(complete thought)


No one here (that I can recall) has suggested we should make the tone deaf person lead the songs. What we're saying is that just because someone "better" comes along, that doesn't mean the other person is suddenly unqualified to lead.



sisrev -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:43:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: funny_girl
Which I think a true leader is going to be demonstrating servant hood by serving others.


I find that this contradicts some of your other posts which indicate that while you have mowed grass and cleaned bathrooms in the past, you have been "promoted" beyond that & think it would be poor stewardship of your talent for you to have to do the janitor's job. Or the door greeter. Or the parking lot sweeper.



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