RE: Worship Leaders (Full Version)

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funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:46:03 PM)

That's not what I'm saying either pho, not at all. My leader placed me in front to lead but he was still the leader. He allowed me to lead one song everyone once in a while and I was overseer of the voices while he focused on the musicians. This is a past experience that I can still learn from but we have moved on.

Now my husband is pastoring a bi lingual church and I'm technically, the best leader in the church and believe me, I'm always trying to get out of it. I'm working with 2 other's. One is retired gentleman that just started singing and the other is a nightclub singer. [:D] Not easy! It's hard for me with the nightclub singer because she feels she's more experienced than she really is. Thank goodness she's teachable but she's a challenge for me.

(complete thought)



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:48:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

Everyone needs to do that! To say that only the best of the best should is a wee bit arrogant, nor does it allow for growth if you didn't wake up one morning with the most amazing gift known to man.


Absolutely, amen![:D]



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:52:49 PM)

Someone got hung up on terminology. If you go back to the other thread I was clarifying that from the get go. I never said that they wouldn't be a servant. I'm a born greeter w/out any effort. We aren't on trial here people. Sheesh.



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 4:57:57 PM)

Now, I am not saying that someone who is completely tone deaf is the best choice for the worship leader. To be honest, I believe we are to give God our best and that you shouldn't be leading something if that isn't where God is calling you. Being tone deaf, would be an indication to me that leading worship is probably not where God wants you.

I agree pho!

The fact is, a worship team is not about us. It's not about who's better. It's not about who has the most talent. It's about God. Yes, God gave us talent for a reason. Yes, I believe He gave us talent to use that talent. Yes, God desires our best. No, that does not mean we should be holding "tryouts" for who does things the best.

This is true. A tryout is good to see where people are at. Maybe interview is what it was called back then. Try not to get hung up on terms.



pbaribeault -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:02:50 PM)

I think this is the classic problem that occurs in a lot of fields -- confusing skill level with leadership ability.

Universities do it (they think that people who are excellent in their fields should be teachers)
The military does it (you keep up the good work and you gain rank to command others)
My husband's technical company does it (they think that the most knowledgeable person should be promoted to manager)

The problem with this thinking is that teaching, commanding, managing (leading!) is a completely distinct skill from whatever the function of the group is. An excellent musician and a mature Christian who has a calling to use their skills to draw the Church into a worshipful state through the means of music - fabulous!

But why the assumption that that individual can work with the minds and hearts of the people around them, to shepherd them towards unity and effectiveness? Why should that person be considered a leader of a musical team?

Further, I wonder why should it be assumed that they can be a "Worship Leader" towards the congregation... That too is a distinct skill that needs to be cultivated, because we know that music itself does not produce worship.

AND I also wonder if a person who is a "Worship Leader" for a congregation is responsible to shepherd those who attend towards other expressions of worship in their lives, or do they just provide the musical context that is conducive to corporate worship times? I have to wonder if "Worship Leader" might be an inappropriate title that conveys to the congregation a truncated understanding of true worship.

So, I would say (in the situation you described) that you need a leader that can lead. A leader's main focus would be on the group - people you are saying are currently expressing resentment. A leader would be applying skill and influence towards diffusing that situation. If you have a key musician, why not just call them that? A key musician can co-ordinate the musical elements of the service without the responsibility of a leader (which might exceed their abilities) and a real leader can do the people-shepherding - and do it well.



pbaribeault -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:18:08 PM)

quote:

It happens and it’s not a surprise that music is such a touchy area since that is where Lucifer fell from.
I had to reply to this because I have trouble letting inaccuracies pass.

The passages that involve Lucifer are complex and do not yield definitive answers...

But I can say this for sure... Although our understanding of Heaven absolutely revolves around worship and adoration, I do not think that we should understand that to be 'music'. Lucifer's fall (if such a thing is even an accurate understanding) can not be logically linked to the idea that he was involved with 'music'.

God's ways and the workings of the heavens are so far beyond our capacity to understand -- making comparisons like that one (between what a person does in a Church setting and a cosmic event that has a lot of mystery around it still) is neither Scriptural nor wise. The heavens are something we 'understand' (to the degree that understanding is possible) by revelation, not by imagination.



crankius -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:18:35 PM)

funny_girl,

To respond to a post and quote it, you can click the quote box to the upper right of each post.



pbaribeault -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:22:27 PM)

Or you can copy and paste the relevant parts and type the word "quote" inside square brackets [] at the beginning and "/quote" (also inside square brackets) at the end... Like this, only using square brackets instead

(quote) The stuff from the other person. (/quote)



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:25:10 PM)

remember how slow my internet speed is, I'm trying. I got upset so I have a few coming, in LOVE!! LOL

phari, I'm exhausted just reading your post! Thank you! This is also what I'm trying to say. If someone is pastoring a church, my goodness, how much are you expecting them to do?

It's an individual basis. We have so many responsibilities and to be told that I'm being arrogant because I don't have parking lot duty is ridiculous! You can't say everyone fits in this little cookie cutter and serves on this basis because we aren't cookies.



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:27:05 PM)

who's
overseeing Women's Ministries in both the English and Spanish church?
overseeing the Youth in the Spanish church?
overseeing worship?
caring for my husband and family?

You all don't think that some of the people in the church can help? I'm not serving in your eyes because I have other responsibilities? Give me a break; I can only do so much. I'm so exhausted that many times I have to lie down between services to rest my back. I'm leading and thinking that I can hardly wait for it to be over because I'm so tired. To put your added presser that I feel I'm on trial and what do I think about Jesus washing the disciples’ feet?



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:28:51 PM)

Our responsibilities are also outside of our church, we’re missionaries and we are encouraging the persecuted church and have a crusade evangelism ministry. That doesn't just ‘happen’ folks!

Are you done beating me up? LOL

Now can we talk about how to encourage people on the worship team?

(complete thought)



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:45:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault

I think this is the classic problem that occurs in a lot of fields -- confusing skill level with leadership ability.

Universities do it (they think that people who are excellent in their fields should be teachers)
The military does it (you keep up the good work and you gain rank to command others)
My husband's technical company does it (they think that the most knowledgeable person should be promoted to manager)

The problem with this thinking is that teaching, commanding, managing (leading!) is a completely distinct skill from whatever the function of the group is. An excellent musician and a mature Christian who has a calling to use their skills to draw the Church into a worshipful state through the means of music - fabulous!

But why the assumption that that individual can work with the minds and hearts of the people around them, to shepherd them towards unity and effectiveness? Why should that person be considered a leader of a musical team?

Further, I wonder why should it be assumed that they can be a "Worship Leader" towards the congregation... That too is a distinct skill that needs to be cultivated, because we know that music itself does not produce worship.

AND I also wonder if a person who is a "Worship Leader" for a congregation is responsible to shepherd those who attend towards other expressions of worship in their lives, or do they just provide the musical context that is conducive to corporate worship times? I have to wonder if "Worship Leader" might be an inappropriate title that conveys to the congregation a truncated understanding of true worship.

So, I would say (in the situation you described) that you need a leader that can lead. A leader's main focus would be on the group - people you are saying are currently expressing resentment. A leader would be applying skill and influence towards diffusing that situation. If you have a key musician, why not just call them that? A key musician can co-ordinate the musical elements of the service without the responsibility of a leader (which might exceed their abilities) and a real leader can do the people-shepherding - and do it well.
Excellent post.



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 5:53:59 PM)

ditto

I agree with that whole post too! I have a friend that is only the pastor of the worship team. He doesn't lead at all.

I presently don't have that luxury and have been carrying that responsibility too. Yes, I'm asking for improvements in my communication skills with how to defuse and encourage a jealous long timer that wants to progress but is limited. What I've seen down here, is that they put those in a mic even though the congregation suffers. Or they don't turn their mics on. So why do they need to be up there? Why not direct them to where their gifts can be utilized? That's what I like to do. People get their feelings hurt, but in my opinion it's for their own good. They can do something I can't.



pbaribeault -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 6:09:19 PM)

quote:

phari, I'm exhausted just reading your post! Thank you! This is also what I'm trying to say. If someone is pastoring a church, my goodness, how much are you expecting them to do? ... Give me a break; I can only do so much.


Sorry, funny_girl, I didn't know your Church was suffering a lack of leaders. Perhaps until it develops more leaders you-as-a-body might consider having fewer programs or lower level goals? If your people can't lead (yet) then that's Goal-1.

You can't call someone a leader if you're not going to expect them to lead their people. Leadership is a duty, not a position. If you don't have someone particularly capable of shepherding your people towards worship-filled lives, just don't use the title "Worship Leader". If you don't have someone focused on leading the group of musicians AS PEOPLE, don't let them mis-lead those people instead. Choose to define their duties more narrowly and give them a title that describes what they are actually doing. I like "musical co-ordiantor" myself.

I do agree with you that the ministry of the whole Church is maximized when people serve where they are most gifted and most effective. It is also wise to use our limited personal effort in the areas that seem (in a Spirit-led way) most likely to yield the greatest Kingdom impact.

But we do have to be careful not to talk in terms of some work being more important, more prestigious or whatever than other work. It is not right to think about moving upwards (getting promoted) from a poorer thing to a better thing. It is about following the call of the Lord of our lives. Just because we are doing the thing He has for us now, rather than the thing He used earlier in our lives to equip us does not mean anything so concrete as you seem to be posting about.

If you were faithful then and you are faithful now, no promotion has occurred - only that your Lord has trained you and is now using you differently. If someone moves from being semi-committed to being faithful, that's the only thing that qualifies as passing a test and one can expect to be trusted with 'more'... and that's what the parable of the talents is talking about. (That's why the talent-burying servant is executed... he was faithless to his charge.)

quote:

Now can we talk about how to encourage people?
I'm assuming you mean the grumblers on the music team?

Step 1. Build or strengthen social relationships individually with each person that you want to lead. (Pray)

-- If there is no tension or conflict, skip to step 5 & stay there, but for grumblers...

Step 2. Encourage calm clear expressions of their disappointments, express sympathy and allow your heart to be changed if needed. (Pray)

Step 3. Strive to right wrongs any wrongs in yourself or your sphere of influence, seek personal forgiveness if needed and openly commit to trying to make wiser choices in the future. (Pray)

Step 4. Act as a teacher in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, if there is a need to draw someone away from a not-so-godly perspective. Do this honestly, humbly and with actual love. (If you are not under the influence of actual love, then you are not in conjunction with the Spirit and should not be doing this step at all.) Refrain from speaking with authority unless you are referencing Scripture, or unless the person has chosen openly to be in submission to you (as in a mentor or something). (Pray)

Step 5. Strive to see people clearly by listening to the Holy Spirit as you observe and interact with them. As you do this, you will have positive thoughts about them. Never have a positive thought that you don't express to that person. (Jot a note for later if you can't tell them just then.) (Pray)



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 6:31:35 PM)

Thank You pbari! What an insightful, helpful post!

I wasn't posting to complain to you, I had posted my other responsibilities as I felt the others had me on trial for not being a servant. My expression was to say, what more are they expecting from me when I'm doing what I'm physically able to do.

We are presently pastoring a bi lingual church on the mission field. It was an English only church for the American/Canadian retirees. So the Spanish side is a brand new work. It's an interesting experience! I'm constantly encouraging my husband to train and release responsibilities as the work is exhausting and we aren't as young as we used to be.



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 6:43:45 PM)

pbar
quote:

But we do have to be careful not to talk in terms of some work being more important, more prestigious or whatever than other work.
Thank you, for trying to understand me as I'd like to avoid that! I'll have to retrain myself on how to express what I'm trying to say. As youth ministers, we frowned at people who said that youth pastoring was a stepping stone to becoming a pastor. I feel that's how the term 'promotion' has been received. Being found faithful and having God give you more responsibilities sounds better doesn't it?



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 6:53:00 PM)

A wise woman once wrote to me, after a crusade was canceled, and said that our response is often greater than a given task. With that in mind how does this play into passing a testing of our faith?
quote:

that's the only thing that qualifies as passing a test and one can expect to be trusted with 'more'.
I think that this applies in other areas of our lives too. In music, there are times when we may desire to have a special part in a program and feel passed over. Those are testing times of our character and how we'll respond. Will we get angry at the leader for passing us over or will we realize that it was someone else's turn and the Lord has something else for us?

(complete thought)



phosadaud -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/18/2008 6:58:46 PM)

To be honest funny_girl, I'm having trouble following you. Maybe it's just the limits of online communication, but one minute you seem to be saying one thing, the next minute you seem to be saying something else. I think that's why people are getting frustrated.



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/19/2008 8:34:33 AM)

Good morning,

I'm still thinking about this. Just wanted you to know that I'm not Calvinistic in my thinking. Just remember that God uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. I wasn't made to debate, although I wish I were.

I'm just baffled at the people that use this forum. For about 6+ month I was using some local forums to witness and build friendships with the people that do not attend our church since I'm a strong evangelist. Being on the mission field isn't always easy, in fact, it's hard. I've walked through some things and I would liked to glean more from the experiences. As independent missionaries you may ask what you do for encouragement?

It's almost just as frustrating trying to use a public Christian forum as a wordly one. My defenses are up! I don't like it.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/19/2008 9:05:17 AM)

Hi, funny-girl,

I don't think I"ve read any of your posts that I've disagreed with. I think the ones that are disagreeing with you have taken issue with a few things you've said, but I personally don't think you meant them the way they have taken them.

My opinion on this subject is that if everyone clothed themselves with humility, there wouldn't be any problems. There wouldn't be people demanding to be front, either because they were better or had been there longer. People would be content to serve the Lord in the place He put them.

I think there are times when we serve in places that are not especially our calling, and when we finally are moved to where we feel our calling lies, it does feel like a promotion to us, even if the word promotion is somewhat of a worldy term and can leave some people with the impression that some parts of the body think they are more important than others. I think of my husband in Jr. Kids' Church, serving faithfully, even though it was not his calling, and now as Senior Pastor. He certainly feels like he was promoted. [:)] Someone else might not feel the same way. I wouldn't want to be Senior Pastor of a church and I'd feel out of place and uncomfortable. [;)]



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/19/2008 9:12:25 AM)

Thank you Consecrated2God,

After thinking of this overnight, I was just so baffeled! Yes, I use some 'wordly' terminology and I can't believe how religious people can get. I don't want be so religious that I can't relate to regular people. Thank you. Debating my words was the furthest thing I had on my mind when starting the forum.

I believe that we are all on an individual journey. When I use the word promotion, that doesn't necessarily mean promoted above you, although perhaps it could be.

Change of subject.

Worship leader,

You have a wonderful musician or vocalist in your group that has begun to display a "star mentality". How will you handle this situation to help guide them back to a heart of worship? Obviously, we can't control and force people to change but we can influence them.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/19/2008 9:22:58 AM)

It's part of the nature of forums. Since our words are the only thing people have, and since we can copy and quote exactly what someone said, you gotta be careful what words you choose. It's hard to read people's hearts and attitudes behind the words sometimes. It can make it tricky when you're new, and I'm sure doubly so if you've got the kind of internet connection you have.



funny_girl -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/19/2008 9:26:27 AM)

I see that to be true. It can be enjoyable if you don't have people jumping to the wrong conclusion.



iluvatar -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/19/2008 9:29:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
AND I also wonder if a person who is a "Worship Leader" for a congregation is responsible to shepherd those who attend towards other expressions of worship in their lives, or do they just provide the musical context that is conducive to corporate worship times? I have to wonder if "Worship Leader" might be an inappropriate title that conveys to the congregation a truncated understanding of true worship.

So, I would say (in the situation you described) that you need a leader that can lead. A leader's main focus would be on the group - people you are saying are currently expressing resentment. A leader would be applying skill and influence towards diffusing that situation. If you have a key musician, why not just call them that? A key musician can co-ordinate the musical elements of the service without the responsibility of a leader (which might exceed their abilities) and a real leader can do the people-shepherding - and do it well.


Perhaps in some cases, the distinction should be made between "band leader" (the person who directs the musical elements of the band) and "worship/song leader/frontman" (the person who sings lead and interacts with the crowd). Most people generally associate the singer with being the band leader, and while this is often the case in rock music, things can be different in other genres. Particularly in larger jazz bands, the band leader may be playing drums, guitar, or some other instrument which isn't at the forefront in every (or any) song. While the lead singer/player may be the "face" of the band, they still take musical direction from the actual band leader.

-Dan.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Worship Leaders (4/19/2008 9:32:00 AM)

Hang in there. [:)] Once people get to know you better, it'll be easier. I've been here a long time and most of the people know me here by now. It's about to the point where I have to deliberately cause trouble because I don't fall into it accidentally anymore. [:D]



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