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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 9:38:18 AM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
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Not only that Dan, but who has so many leaders? We've pastored small churches and I've worn many hats. I'm thankful and feel I wore those hats pretty well. I'm not afraid to delegate and release others when I see they're ready. When we moved to the mission field, I was hoping my pastoring days were over. I was ready to be missionary/evangelist but that didn't happen. It really is an individual basis. Some are called and some are not called that isn't being debated.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:16:13 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1012
Joined: 4/29/2005
Status: online
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The only places that have 'so many leaders' are ones that have a pastor that is intentionally taking their non-leaders through an individual plan to equip them to lead over the course of 3-5 years. Few people just step-up and try leadership on their own initiative (and if they do it often goes badly and they quit it).
Other than that case, it can also happen in groups that have had to do without an 'official' leader to rely on, so they rely on each other with a lot of grace and more people than you would imagine figure out some kind of leadership method.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:27:22 AM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
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Hurry up and start raising up all these leaders phari, it's looks great on paper.
3-5 years is definately more realistic than some that are trying to raise up a pastor in a year, which we've seen and influenced them not to do here in Mexico.
We must keep our eyes on Jesus and do our best with what we have.
Personally, I think it starts with someone with a vision and getting others involved that can help you accomplish that goal. This is when depending completely on God and divine appointments really helps out! We can plan to have all these leaders but if God hasn't equped you to be able to raise up a particular leader than what are suppose to do? Hoening into your strengths and letting Jesus be strong in your weaknesses is a start.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:32:25 AM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
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The leaders that quit typically have two things going on there:
1. They've not been placed in a place where they can suceed, grow frustrated and quit.
2. They really haven't been designed by God to be a leader, recognize it, and quit.
We can only give out what we have. I should be able to raise up someone like me. Hopefully, that's proved evident through my children first.
My oldest son, who's 18, came to me yesterday to tell me how wonderful this book is that he had forgotten about and it's wonderful! I asked him what it was? It's The Narrow Road by Brother Andrew. As his mother, I knew that was a good book for him to read and had given it to him over a year ago. It sat and collected dust, but when the right time came, he picked up and now he'll be influenced by it's pages.
< Message edited by funny_girl -- 4/19/2008 11:39:11 AM >
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:32:53 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4953
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: funny_girl
Someone got hung up on terminology. If you go back to the other thread I was clarifying that from the get go. I never said that they wouldn't be a servant. I'm a born greeter w/out any effort. We aren't on trial here people. Sheesh.
Actually, I wasn't just hung up on the terminology, but the meaning behind the terminology.
I realize you have felt picked on, but I think if you go back and reread my posts, you will see I was just examining and explaining why I think this way of looking at ministry is not scriptural.
You are not on trial, but words mean something and as you post your thoughts, others are going to want to share their thoughts. As people discuss ideas on Crosswalk they sometimes find that they learn something new and their perspective changes, or they find that their thoughts about a particular idea were pretty good to begin with. It can be very refining if we allow it to be.
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I wasn't posting to complain to you, I had posted my other responsibilities as I felt the others had me on trial for not being a servant.
No, not on trial--we just were trying to connect your posts that seemed to be contradictory.
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but, if you've already paid the price for your position and there are others that are able to do that then it will frustrate a seasoned leader.
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Paying the price for the promotion that God has given to you. God watches us and if we pass our tests He'll promote us. Not saying that we aren't kind to others but if I'm responsible to arrange the music, rehearsals, and have the responsibility of leading the fellowship into His presence. Don't you think that's enough? Do I need to run the elevator too? Can't others have responsibility too? I see the goal is to keep people humble, but it comes from character in our heart not chores. It could, it just depends on the individual and where they are at.
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There does come a point where you've served others and others serve you. You reap what you sow. If you honor and respect others in time and in turn others will honor and respect you.
It looked like you were saying once you had paid the price in the "lower" tasks, you would be promoted to the "higher" tasks. I've not heard a person speak about ministry this way before. I think some of the posters just wanted to discuss it from their perspectives as fellow-leaders.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:42:41 AM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
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I'm slowly figuring this out too (cranky, lol) I hope you can see I have a sense of humor and like to give people pet names in good fun.
I'm not too good to clean the toilet. I have 4 to clean this morning. That's why I was saying I'd mopped potty water after leading worship. I guess what I was trying to say was that I'm trying with everything that I have to please the Lord and I can't do everyting. I'm doing everything physically possible right now and to have the added responsibility of running the elavator, to keep me humble, would probably put my nerves over the edge. I did run the elavotor 2 weeks ago when an elderly gentleman forgot his Bible in the sanctuary.
I was seeing the style that elastic's church has going as for a very young, growing church.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:45:36 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1275
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: funny_girl
Not only that Dan, but who has so many leaders?
Depends on the make up of the group and who has what skills. You can find small churches with lots of able people and large churches with few. My church has about 250 regular attenders and we have at least 2 full bands worth of competent folks with enough spares to maybe make a third. However, most of the other churches I've been to of that size barely had enough to get one band going. My last church was about 8x the size of this one and had a band that could not play together as well as the one in my current church.
-Dan.
_____________________________
It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:47:17 AM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
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If that works for the body as a whole, bless them! I'm not going to change my whole way of ministry because of it. Are you familiar with YWAM ministries. They have a lot of serving in their discipleship instructions. We work in cooperation with YWAM and many other ministries that you'd recognize. Isn't a servants heart evident when a ministry is able to work in unity with many ministries? I'm not better than they are, we've decided to work for His kingdom! We don't care who gets 'credit'.
< Message edited by funny_girl -- 4/19/2008 11:55:10 AM >
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:49:58 AM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
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I understand what you are saying about a band, Dan. It's a beautiful thing to be a part of, especially when you can see it working like a well oiled machine. Enjoy this time and season in your life. I pray that God protects you and covers you; that your music would be sacred and for His glory!
< Message edited by funny_girl -- 4/19/2008 11:56:08 AM >
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 11:52:45 AM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
My opinion on this subject is that if everyone clothed themselves with humility, there wouldn't be any problems. There wouldn't be people demanding to be front, either because they were better or had been there longer. People would be content to serve the Lord in the place He put them.
What he said!
quote:
Most people generally associate the singer with being the band leader, and while this is often the case in rock music, things can be different in other genres.
In rock we say "front man", especially if they do that swing the mic around on the air thing.
_____________________________
Heartland Rocks!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 12:40:55 PM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
Status: offline
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How about we tackle this situation guys/girls? Give me your best input please:
We hooked up with these Mexican musicians and began an evangelism ministry together. Later, I recognized that my leader, who was also worship leader in the church, had severe insecurity problems. He's an amazing musician but always taking a bow! It was embarrassing. He took credit for the work of others and didn't give credit to the TEAM! Scary! He wouldn't communicate effectively and guess who started keeping the musicians together? Me! Ugh! It was so hard! He'd use me. About 2 years later, he put me as the 'la jefa'/the boss over the voices in the church, those are his words.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 12:42:45 PM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
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Well, with his permission, I, the 'gringa' missionary, took the reigns and set up interviews. Found out where people were spiritually and skill wise. Then, my leader turned on me. It's was awful! We were best friends! I think a lot of this has to do with me being a woman. His wife was encouraging. She said that I had more influence than anyone else. But, this style of leadership didn't seem to work here in this part of Mexico. Somehow, I think I intimidated him. I went and talked with him about me not having this 'position' and just being there to serve as I could. He seemed appreciative. We've both moved on from this church to pastor our own churches. I know that I can still learn a lot from the mistakes of this leader and my own mistakes. Help me glean.
< Message edited by funny_girl -- 4/19/2008 12:49:16 PM >
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 1:01:01 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 6665
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: funny_girl
Someone got hung up on terminology. If you go back to the other thread I was clarifying that from the get go. I never said that they wouldn't be a servant. I'm a born greeter w/out any effort. We aren't on trial here people. Sheesh.
Actually, I wasn't just hung up on the terminology, but the meaning behind the terminology.
I realize you have felt picked on, but I think if you go back and reread my posts, you will see I was just examining and explaining why I think this way of looking at ministry is not scriptural.
You are not on trial, but words mean something and as you post your thoughts, others are going to want to share their thoughts. As people discuss ideas on Crosswalk they sometimes find that they learn something new and their perspective changes, or they find that their thoughts about a particular idea were pretty good to begin with. It can be very refining if we allow it to be.
quote:
I wasn't posting to complain to you, I had posted my other responsibilities as I felt the others had me on trial for not being a servant.
No, not on trial--we just were trying to connect your posts that seemed to be contradictory.
quote:
but, if you've already paid the price for your position and there are others that are able to do that then it will frustrate a seasoned leader.
quote:
Paying the price for the promotion that God has given to you. God watches us and if we pass our tests He'll promote us. Not saying that we aren't kind to others but if I'm responsible to arrange the music, rehearsals, and have the responsibility of leading the fellowship into His presence. Don't you think that's enough? Do I need to run the elevator too? Can't others have responsibility too? I see the goal is to keep people humble, but it comes from character in our heart not chores. It could, it just depends on the individual and where they are at.
quote:
There does come a point where you've served others and others serve you. You reap what you sow. If you honor and respect others in time and in turn others will honor and respect you.
It looked like you were saying once you had paid the price in the "lower" tasks, you would be promoted to the "higher" tasks. I've not heard a person speak about ministry this way before. I think some of the posters just wanted to discuss it from their perspectives as fellow-leaders.
That's where I was at too. I truly did not intend for you to feel attacked funny_girl, I just truly was not following what you were posting - and I think the reverse was a bit true as well. 
_____________________________
~Kristin~
If I haven't scared you away, join me here...
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 1:09:55 PM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
Status: offline
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If you pick up a Joyce Meyer or John Maxwell book, they use these 'wordly' terms too. If you don't respect their ministry, I don't need to hear about it, it's not on trail either.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 1:12:39 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 6665
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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I have no problem with the terms you used, I was having trouble following what you were saying. Good grief!
_____________________________
~Kristin~
If I haven't scared you away, join me here...
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 1:59:15 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4768
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Jesus Land
Status: offline
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No problem, MusicianDad.
quote:
How about we tackle this situation guys/girls? Give me your best input please:
We hooked up with these Mexican musicians and began an evangelism ministry together. Later, I recognized that my leader, who was also worship leader in the church, had severe insecurity problems. He's an amazing musician but always taking a bow! It was embarrassing. He took credit for the work of others and didn't give credit to the TEAM! Scary! He wouldn't communicate effectively and guess who started keeping the musicians together? Me! Ugh! It was so hard! He'd use me. About 2 years later, he put me as the 'la jefa'/the boss over the voices in the church, those are his words.
Wow, what a difficult situation, especially when trying to work with other cultures that do things differently. So you were under his leadership? I'm not sure what I would have done in your situation.
< Message edited by Consecrated2God -- 4/19/2008 2:05:29 PM >
_____________________________
Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 2:01:39 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4953
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: funny_girl
If you pick up a Joyce Meyer or John Maxwell book, they use these 'wordly' terms too. If you don't respect their ministry, I don't need to hear about it, it's not on trail either.
This information helps. Now I can see where some of these ideas are probably coming from, and why we are not seeing things the same way.
I'll respect your desire to not discuss this in this thread.
quote:
it's not on trail either
As I already clarified--there is no trial here, but rather an exchange, discussion, and evaluation of ideas.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 5:04:28 PM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I have no problem with the terms you used, I was having trouble following what you were saying. Good grief!
I've got the giggles, my response above, you, was in general. That wasn't a direct statement to you pho. I like you guys, this is terribly funny trying to piece together the whole story! Jesus help us! We are on the same team!
I'm sorry my thoughts are so abstract. I've had terrible insomnia and the past two days, tried to concentrate to make sense. My kids said that they haven't been able to talk to me because I was so focused on this. At least that sounds like a good excuse right now. :)
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 5:19:56 PM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
No problem, MusicianDad.
quote:
How about we tackle this situation guys/girls? Give me your best input please:
We hooked up with these Mexican musicians and began an evangelism ministry together. Later, I recognized that my leader, who was also worship leader in the church, had severe insecurity problems. He's an amazing musician but always taking a bow! It was embarrassing. He took credit for the work of others and didn't give credit to the TEAM! Scary! He wouldn't communicate effectively and guess who started keeping the musicians together? Me! Ugh! It was so hard! He'd use me. About 2 years later, he put me as the 'la jefa'/the boss over the voices in the church, those are his words.
Wow, what a difficult situation, especially when trying to work with other cultures that do things differently. So you were under his leadership? I'm not sure what I would have done in your situation.
I submitted myself to the leadership in the church and gave the leader the 'front man' position in our evangelism ministry. Then, because he couldn't seem to help with the grunt work for the crusades, he was 'demoted' him, for lack of better term. He just doesn't have a servants heart. We gave 'front man' to Neto, my keyboardist who later became our recording studio manager and my musical arranger. Especially, after learning that Neto was the person doing all the work. This leader was taking all the credit in the beginning and not recognizing Neto!
I was very submissive and encouraging. It really was heart breaking. I've tried to talk about this in other threads because I'd wondered if we became too emotionally attached. Our friendship was very close, like siblings. I was learning a new culture so my husband and I were VERY open to how they do things. It took some time and then I realized he was co dependent where in the beginning we thought it was cultural and partly so. I've never allowed someone that wasn't my husband, dad, grandfather or brother get so close to me. My husband and I tried to explain to him that he was allowed a special place in our lives. We shared everything with him and his family. Vacations, cars, money, holidays, and ministry.
He still could come into our lives if we could see he's grown. He's a lot of fun! But when it comes down to work, he lacked in character and that broke our hearts. Part of it is cultural and most of it is him and his choices.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/19/2008 5:24:34 PM
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funny_girl
Posts: 625
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: funny_girl
If you pick up a Joyce Meyer or John Maxwell book, they use these 'wordly' terms too. If you don't respect their ministry, I don't need to hear about it, it's not on trail either.
This information helps. Now I can see where some of these ideas are probably coming from, and why we are not seeing things the same way.
I'll respect your desire to not discuss this in this thread.
quote:
it's not on trail either
As I already clarified--there is no trial here, but rather an exchange, discussion, and evaluation of ideas.
I really hate being put in a box but if it will clarify things for you, so be it. I respect the way you think. We are all on a journey towards heaven and Jesus help us along the way!
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/20/2008 8:47:29 PM
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bigboytenor
Posts: 640
Joined: 4/17/2007
From: Webb City, MO
Status: offline
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I have read most of this thread and here goes:
First, God has blessed me with great vocal ability. I will finish a masters in vocal performance in May and start on my doctorate next year. I have sung everything from southern gospel to CCM to classical to opera and jazz.
Second, I have been told for years that I have an ability to lead people into the presence of God.
Third, these two things combined can make for some amazing times of corporate worship.
Fourth, the biggest adversary to my third point is my ego. If I allow myself to think it's me, me, me, then it's not about God and He won't move like He will if I move out of His way and follow His Spirit. It can be tough as I attend a church in the country that runs about 150 with no one else who has any formal training in music at all. They all look to me to lead, help with arrangements, find that chord that just doesn't sound right and teach the harmony singers their parts if they can't find them. It can become exhausting, but also a point of pride.
Put aside pride and selfishness and consider others as better than ourselves and things run much smoother.
_____________________________
Jesus, What a Beautiful Name! ! !
Daryl
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/21/2008 11:55:31 AM
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Tomok
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline
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I can understand your dilemma. I would normally expect a person to settle into the church before giving them any roles. We all need time to adapt and see where best our giftings may be used.
Having said that, I've personally gone through this at the wrong end! After 10 years of trying to be accepted into the worship bands (there were 3 and room for more if required) I gave up and left the church I was in. My background to coming to this church was that I had over 30 years experience playing piano/keyboards/guitar/bass/singing at my previous church. Having allowed 18 months for settling in to my church I offered my services as I've always felt God leading me to serve within the worship music of the church - my calling if you like. I then spent the next 10 years trying - but failing to breakthrough. After 10 years of trying I finally asked the worship leader would I ever be considered for the band(s) - and his answer was '....no, I never ever saw you playing for the church'. He knew all these years I was doing my best to use my gift and yet he never told me straight his thoughts. I had asked previously but he always seem to indicate perhaps soon. What upset me just as much as this was that 2 other churches had asked me to help out in those ten years and the leadership (incl.worship leader) wouldn't let me do it. I decided that I could be used elsewhere and having left now about 18 months ago, have been used as a worship leader, besides other things, on a regular basis. My senior pastor - who I've had a good relationship over these past 10 years was particularly saddened at my decision to go. Bottom line was he didn't do anything to help the situation though - which was just as sad.
If folk have a real passion and calling for being involved in the worship ministry, then they should be used, provided they've had a time to settle in the church and for the church to get to know these people and then to try and test their calling to see if it's right - not to dismiss out of hand.
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RE: Worship Leaders - 4/21/2008 11:17:35 PM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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I was in a similar situation to Tomok. I was on a worship team and was interested in having my sons play also. I was told that there was a policy agaist children playing on worship teams. No problem. In the meantime, my oldest son (nine at the time) was invited to sit in on a rehearsal with his drum teachers worship team at a different church. Within a year he became the main drummer and even got his little brother on a team as well. We became so involved with that music program that we just decided to attend there full time and left the first church on good terms. I definately feel we were led by the spirit in this.
_____________________________
Heartland Rocks!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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