RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (Full Version)

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URForgiven -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/21/2008 4:12:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Precisely my point, URF! The world needs Truth, not observations of perceived caring about others whom we don't even know. You cannot love me or care for me through an electronic discussion board (other than to show common courtesy and respect, which you have). You can, however, uphold, explain, and share the truth, when it is properly defined. That is what better serves the world, in my opinion!


Opinions are another thing I care little for, including my own. Peace.



drmark -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/21/2008 4:26:42 PM)

If someone cares not for his/her own opinion, then why should I? BTW, why do you post on a public forum, since you care so little about proper definitions of truth or others' opinions? It would seem to be an exercise in futility to me!



URForgiven -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/21/2008 4:36:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

If someone cares not for his/her own opinion, then why should I? BTW, why do you post on a public forum, since you care so little about proper definitions of truth or others' opinions? It would seem to be an exercise in futility to me!


It is you who contend that I have not given proper definitions. It is a contention that I disagree with. I have presented no opinions. I pray I never do. I care only for the truth.

What you are attempting to do is most definitely an exercise in futility. I respectfully suggest you give it a rest.



drmark -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/21/2008 5:04:47 PM)

quote:

It is you who contend that I have not given proper definitions.
Actually, you've offered no "proper definitions" at all, merely opinions which you admit to caring for little.

quote:

I have presented no opinions.
Here is a list that may change your mind:
quote:

I should think that the vast majority of pots are rather common. Common in mans mind, but never common in Gods.
quote:

God does not need your ability, just your availability.
quote:

I believe I have defined truth.
quote:

It is you who contend that I have not given proper definitions.
These are all reasonable opinions, half of which I agree with. Why did you post them if you don't care for them?

quote:

I care only for the truth.
What is truth, URF? Do you have Scripture to support the above opinions?

quote:

What you are attempting to do is most definitely an exercise in futility.
What do you think I'm "attempting to do"? Since you cannot know my mind, I will tell you. I am asking all of us who claim to represent the Name of Christ to define, explain, and hopefully understand the truth. I am dismayed by some of the sloppy theology and loose doctrine that I see posted on these forums and I realize that a significant portion comes from "caring little" for proper definitions of truth. This OP is no different in that a major issue regarding the self-determination of the clay pot is under question. I believe that clarification of truth is vital to our understanding of how and why the Potter molds us. Is that futile?

quote:

I respectfully suggest you give it a rest.
I will never rest from honoring Christ by honoring His Truth.



URForgiven -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/21/2008 5:21:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

It is you who contend that I have not given proper definitions.
Actually, you've offered no "proper definitions" at all, merely opinions which you admit to caring for little.

quote:

I have presented no opinions.
Here is a list that may change your mind:
quote:

I should think that the vast majority of pots are rather common. Common in mans mind, but never common in Gods.
quote:

God does not need your ability, just your availability.
quote:

I believe I have defined truth.
quote:

It is you who contend that I have not given proper definitions.
These are all reasonable opinions, half of which I agree with. Why did you post them if you don't care for them?

quote:

I care only for the truth.
What is truth, URF? Do you have Scripture to support the above opinions?

quote:

What you are attempting to do is most definitely an exercise in futility.
What do you think I'm "attempting to do"? Since you cannot know my mind, I will tell you. I am asking all of us who claim to represent the Name of Christ to define, explain, and hopefully understand the truth. I am dismayed by some of the sloppy theology and loose doctrine that I see posted on these forums and I realize that a significant portion comes from "caring little" for proper definitions of truth. This OP is no different in that a major issue regarding the self-determination of the clay pot is under question. I believe that clarification of truth is vital to our understanding of how and why the Potter molds us. Is that futile?

quote:

I respectfully suggest you give it a rest.
I will never rest from honoring Christ by honoring His Truth.


What you are attempting to do, since you seem to have forgotten how you began this little tit for tat...

"And availability requires free will and personal choice? Is that what I'm hearing? "

This is an attempt, by you, to categorize me. The reason you need to categorize me is so that you can then cease to deal with me as an individual. I am trying to not be unkind, but this is nothing less than bigotry.

I am a Christian, plain and simple. I do no accept any other label, nor do I need any.

If you need to debate, there are plenty here who will feed your hunger. I do not debate the truth.

It is the flesh that takes delight in debate, the Spirit delights in truth.

I am here to share what truth has been given to me, and to hopefully learn what truth others have been given.

And quite frankly if everyone did this, then the sloppy theology and loose doctrine that you see posted on these forums, would cease to be.



drmark -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/21/2008 10:18:59 PM)

quote:

This is an attempt, by you, to categorize me. The reason you need to categorize me is so that you can then cease to deal with me as an individual. I am trying to not be unkind, but this is nothing less than bigotry.
I'm really not interested in your unfounded accusations and derogatory labels, URF. Feel free to find someone else to denigrate.

Does anyone have a relevant comment regarding these two previous posts?
quote:

It shows that perhaps the clay has some say in the outcome
quote:

This OP is no different in that a major issue regarding the self-determination of the clay pot is under question.



Mannamuncher -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/22/2008 7:50:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

Any old cracked pot will do.


God uses CRACKPOTS !!!

I'm in.......[;)]



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/22/2008 8:00:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

Any old cracked pot will do.


God uses CRACKPOTS !!!

I'm in.......[;)]


Wait a minute! That doesn't hold water.
[&:]



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/22/2008 12:01:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Can God use his children dishonorably ?
Would you use your children dishonorably?
Why do you think God would?

quote:

As for commonality...most of us are common.

Not many are Moses, David, or Elijah.

These men were/are EXTRAordinary !
Jamess 5:17 Elijah was a person of like nature to us

As for David, He was just like you or me, if you read about him, you should agree that he was not any more ordinary(EXTRA) than the next guy.

Moses, He had a temper(breaking the Tabletts), He felt inadaquit(Exo 3:11, Exo 4:10,13).

The only think that made these men "EXTRAordinary" is how God used them.
quote:

Even Judas was predestined to betray Christ Jesus.
Judas didn't have to betray Christ.
However, what Judas did was not foced upon him, in that God made him do it cause God needed some one to do it.
God allowed Judas to do it and foresaw(foreknew) that he would, then used him for that purpose.

Judas was not created for the sole purposew of betraying Christ, if he was, then He did God's will and should be commended for what he did.



Bluethread -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/22/2008 7:41:09 PM)

Let's not get carried away. It's an analogy and all analogies fall if extended too far. In my opinion the analogy was not about predestination, but about our willingness to follw Adonai and His ways. Nor do I believe it is about comparing oneself to another, but making the most of what has been put in our custody. Like in the parable of the talents, only those who refuse to subject themselves to the interests of Adonai are rejected. I use my common dishes much more than may china, but that does not mean one is comparable to the other. I enjoy the fact that I don't have to be careful with my every day dishes, just as much as I enjoy the look and feel of my china. Now please, do not start throwing stones because my analogy doesn't exactly represent our relationshpi with Adonai. You might break my china.



Ezra -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 12:39:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Romans 9
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

2 Timothy 2
19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


There seem to be some misconceptions floating around with respect to these passages. The issue in these verses is not whether the Potter makes some pottery fro common use, or even whether man (the clay) does the work of God (the Potter).

The real issues are (1) what is a "vessel unto honour" and (2) what is a "vessel unto dishonour"?

It is evident that the vessel unto honour is also the vessel of mercy, whereas the vessel unto dishonour is also the vessel of wrath fitted for destruction. It is "iniquity" that separates the two groups.

The ones who are vessels of mercy are the children of God who have experienced God's grace and must therefore depart from iniquity. These become vessels unto honour through separation from sin and sanctification unto God.

The ones who are vessel of wrath are children of wrath fitted for destruction because they refuse to repent, and persist in their iniquity or wickedness. These become vessels of dishonour since their ultimate end is the Lake of Fire (a most dishonourable place prepared for the devil and his angels).

The fact that Christians are clay does not mean that they are "common". What God has cleansed or sanctified, let no man call common (Acts 10:15).



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 3:15:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Judas was not created for the sole purposew of betraying Christ, if he was, then He did God's will and should be commended for what he did.


I wonder...

Proverbs 16
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Also, instead of destroying Satan, He allows him to tempt people beginning with Adam and Eve.

Romans 9
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 11:54:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Judas was not created for the sole purposew of betraying Christ, if he was, then He did God's will and should be commended for what he did.
I wonder...

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Also, instead of destroying Satan, He allows him to tempt people beginning with Adam and Eve.

Romans 9
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Do you think that God is a Sadomasochist subtracting the sexual aspect?

Sadomasochism is the sexual pleasure gained from inflicting pain on others.

According to you, God takes plesure in creating sentient being for the sole purpose of destroyng them in hell.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Clarke has a good commentary on this verse thsat you should adopt:
Pro 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself - He has so framed and executed every part of his creation, that it manifests his wisdom, power, goodness, and truth.
Even the wicked for the day of evil - åâí øùò ìéåí øòä vegam rasha leyom raah. The whole verse is translated by the Chaldee thus: “All the works of the Lord are for those who obey him; and the wicked is reserved for the evil day.” As øòä raah literally signifies to feed, it has been conjectured that the clause might be read, yea, even the wicked he feeds by the day, or daily.
If we take the words as they stand in our present version, they mean no more than what is expressed by the Chaldee and Spriac: and as far as we can learn from their present confused state, by the Septuagint and Arabic, that “the wicked are reserved for the day of punishment.” Coverdale has given, as he generally does, a good sense: “The Lorde dotll all thinges for his owne sake; yea, and when he kepeth the ungodly for the daye of wrath.” He does not make the wicked or ungodly man; but when man has made himself such, even then God bears with him. But if he repent not, when the measure of his iniquity is filled up, he shall fall under the wrath of God his Maker.

quote:

Also, instead of destroying Satan, He allows him to tempt people beginning with Adam and Eve.
God did not create satan for any purpose that to worship God.

quote:

Romans 9
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
See my post Post #: 8
Vessles are fitted for wrath in judgment for not doing what they are created for.



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 12:29:31 PM)

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Why would God be wrathfull against vessels of dissonor if they are doing what they are created for?



TheoJunkie -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 12:32:36 PM)

quote:

The ones who are vessels of mercy are the children of God who have experienced God's grace and must therefore depart from iniquity. These become vessels unto honour through separation from sin and sanctification unto God.

The ones who are vessel of wrath are children of wrath fitted for destruction because they refuse to repent, and persist in their iniquity or wickedness. These become vessels of dishonour since their ultimate end is the Lake of Fire (a most dishonourable place prepared for the devil and his angels).


You are correct, Ezra.

The larger elephant in the room, is whether a common pot can up and decide to transform itself into a ming vase on its own. And indeed, whether it provides any significant causal input into its transformation at all.... whether indeed a pot even cares that it is common, much less makes a choice "for Ming" prior to "becoming Ming."

PS (this one is for Diolectic):
Do not forget that it is Adam that resulted in the Common Pot... not God.

The Potter doesn't need to do much to the clay to get it into the shape of a common pot-- such a thing is basically just clay in the general shape of a pot. It's the Ming vase that takes work and skill.



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 2:48:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie

PS (this one is for Diolectic):
Do not forget that it is Adam that resulted in the Common Pot... not God.

The Potter doesn't need to do much to the clay to get it into the shape of a common pot-- such a thing is basically just clay in the general shape of a pot. It's the Ming vase that takes work and skill.
I would say thay vessels that are of the "Ming" class are people like Praying Hyde.

Those are the vessels than need to stay on the wheel of the potter for a longer time, because they are used for a purpose that just a little time on the wheel is not enough.
However, If one prayes to be used by God, HE will put you on the wheel so that you may be able to withstand that which your being used will bring.

Just don't mare in the Potters hand as Israel did.



TheoJunkie -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 4:28:44 PM)

I'm afraid I don't understand your post. I don't know who Praying Hyde is, and I'm not familiar with the expression to "mare in" something.

At any rate, I would encourage you to do a thought experiment, and imagine that you are a potter looking at lumps of clay and rough pots in your workshop. How long do you think you will need to wait before you hear one of them cry out to you for assistance?



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 5:03:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie

I'm afraid I don't understand your post. I don't know who Praying Hyde is
Praying Hyde's real name was John Hyde.
He is a man who would spend a weak in nothing but prayer, fasting during that time.
Goolgle him and read som biographies. He was amazing.

quote:

and I'm not familiar with the expression to "mare in" something.
Jer 18:4 the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter
Sorry, I misspelled it.
I meant to say, "Just don't mar in the Potters hand"

quote:

I would encourage you to do a thought experiment, and imagine that you are a potter looking at lumps of clay and rough pots in your workshop. How long do you think you will need to wait before you hear one of them cry out to you for assistance?
What do you mean?



Bluethread -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 7:25:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Why would God be wrathfull against vessels of dissonor if they are doing what they are created for?


Job 34:10-15
10 "So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves. 12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice. 13 Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world? 14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15 all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust."

Therefore, it is not for us to judge Adonai regarding His creation. If He created some simply for the purpose of destroying them, they owe Him reverence simply because He blessed them with life, even if that life be miserable.



meerkat -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 8:56:27 PM)

How does Romans 8:20-23 fit into all this and also 1 peter 4:6 also 1 cor 15:42

Are the vessels fitted for destruction the mortal fleshly bodies and souls that will be destroyed in the lake of fire? Is the vessel of mercy the spiritual rebirth that happens?

Jacob and Esau - are they types of this? Also Cain and Abel. Just as Adam is the type of Jesus.

Is this related to the teachings of Jesus about the 1st shall be last and the last first?

I have come to the conclusion that this is what is happening. Not all is being reconciled in this lifetime, and there will be conseqences for good or bad behaviour ie judgement in the flesh.



Ezra -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 9:45:21 PM)

quote:

According to you, God takes plesure in creating sentient being for the sole purpose of destroyng them in hell.


Scripture plainly states (KJV) that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

quote:

the wicked is reserved for the evil day


That is why God is "longsuffering" or tolerates their existence. Their judgment is reserved for the evil day, when they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. These are the ones whom God knows will never repent (such as Satan).

quote:

Why would God be wrathfull against vessels of dissonor if they are doing what they are created for?


But they are NOT doing what they were created for. God created man to have fellowship with Him and to glorify HIm. But some choose darkness over light because they love sin more than the Savior. Therefore they bring upon themselves the wrath of God, and become vessels unto dishonour.

quote:

The larger elephant in the room, is whether a common pot can up and decide to transform itself into a ming vase on its own.


The short answer is "No". The transformation of a vile sinner into a holy saint is solely the work of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

quote:

If He created some simply for the purpose of destroying them, they owe Him reverence simply because He blessed them with life, even if that life be miserable.


This is where we are seriously mistaken. Even Lucifer was not created to be destroyed. He was created to be the chief angel in Heaven -- "the anointed cherub that covereth" (Ezek. 28:14) -- in order to worship and glory God. He chose to rebel and brought damnation upion himself. The same applies to Adam, and to every sinner today who chooses to reject Christ and the offer of eternal life.

quote:

And indeed, whether it provides any significant causal input into its transformation at all.... whether indeed a pot even cares that it is common, much less makes a choice "for Ming" prior to "becoming Ming."


Scripture says that the "causal input" is "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). Therefore the clay is not entirely passive. The clay was intended to be actively involved in "good works" for which it was created (Eph. 2:9). That is why God made man in His own image and likeness.

As to the pot "caring", the redeemed pot desires to be "meet for the master's use" therefore once again, redemption makes all the difference.

It looks like we continue to misunderstand the Potter, in spite of all that He has revealed. The "vessels of wrath" are those which choose to disregard God and His ways. They do have the option to love God and keep His commandments, since God says "whosoever will, let him take of the Water of Life freely".



cybrjewls -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 10:05:36 PM)

There is a party to attend where The Lord will bring out His best dishes from across all of the centuries; the wedding version. You are all cordially invited to the feast and one must make the necessary preparations (dress code etc...) to attend and not be found wanting for clothing, etc...

This mortal shell of a vessel is very common and will be destroyed by fire. But what is within those who are in Christ Jesus will remain forever. However, how we are raised and what being (inner man) we are given to stand or fall in the Judgment Day of God will be in accordance with the plan of God for our eternity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32

Romans 9
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

2 Timothy 2
19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

1 Thessalonians 4
1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
Or does man do the work of a potter?



Ezra -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 10:39:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meerkat
How does Romans 8:20-23 fit into all this


This passage refers to the impact of sin and death upon "the creation" (also called "the creature" in the KJV). The universe was subjected to the Law of Sin and Death because of Adam. Sin brought corruption, disease, decay, death, pain, sorrow, misery, enmity, violence, destruction, etc. into the universe. And when the vessels unto honour are revealed in "the glorious liberty of the sons of God" the entire universe will be set free from the bondage which sin brought upon it.

quote:

and also 1 peter 4:6 also 1 cor 15:42


1 Cor. 15:42 ties in.

quote:

Are the vessels fitted for destruction the mortal fleshly bodies and souls that will be destroyed in the lake of fire?


That's right. The bodies and souls of the unredeemed will be reunited and cast into the Lake of Fire. This is a dreadful thought.

quote:

Is the vessel of mercy the spiritual rebirth that happens?


The vessel of mercy is the sinner who has received God's grace and been born again. We are saved by grace and kept by the power of God.

quote:

Jacob and Esau - are they types of this? Also Cain and Abel. Just as Adam is the type of Jesus.


Exactly. By the same token Esau was not "predestined" to wrath. He chose that path freely. (See Heb. 12:15-17).

quote:

Is this related to the teachings of Jesus about the 1st shall be last and the last first?


Yes. The "first" were those in Israel that had all the promises and privileges but went about to "establish their own righteousness". These are rejected. The "last" were the publicans, sinners, and harlots who knew they were without any righteousness, but came to Jesus for grace, mercy and salvation.



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 10:47:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Why would God be wrathfull against vessels of dissonor if they are doing what they are created for?
If He created some simply for the purpose of destroying them, they owe Him reverence simply because He blessed them with life, even if that life be miserable.

Do you think that God is a Sadomasochist subtracting the sexual aspect?
You do if you think that God takes plesure in creating sentient being for the sole purpose of destroyng them in hell.



TheoJunkie -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 10:55:44 PM)

quote:

It looks like we continue to misunderstand the Potter, in spite of all that He has revealed.


Perhaps "we" do.

quote:

The "vessels of wrath" are those which choose to disregard God and His ways. They do have the option to love God and keep His commandments, since God says "whosoever will, let him take of the Water of Life freely".


We are not in disagreement there.

Acts 20:12 does indeed speak of repentance, but does not suggest that it is "causal input". Nevertheless, I agree that the formed pot at least is "not entirely passive." (The clay perhaps is a different matter).

Ephesians 1:1 shows that this letter is addressed "to the saints"... Eph 2:8 says in past perfect tense, "you have been saved". Further, the unsaved are not "in Christ Jesus". Therefore when Paul speaks of being "created in Christ Jesus for good works" in Ephesians 2:10 (as I'm sure you meant, not 2:9), he is speaking specifically about believers (i.e., the Ming vases) and not about the reprobate (the common pots).

quote:

As to the pot "caring", the redeemed pot desires to be "meet for the master's use" therefore once again, redemption makes all the difference.


I note that you speak only of the redeemed pots here. I agree.



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