RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (Full Version)

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 11:11:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie

The larger elephant in the room, is whether a common pot can up and decide to transform itself into a ming vase on its own. And indeed, whether it provides any significant causal input into its transformation at all.... whether indeed a pot even cares that it is common, much less makes a choice "for Ming" prior to "becoming Ming."


The Potter doesn't need to do much to the clay to get it into the shape of a common pot-- such a thing is basically just clay in the general shape of a pot. It's the Ming vase that takes work and skill.


This verse doesn't speak to God as the Potter, but I believe it fits into what is posted regarding what is the work of God...

1 Corinthians 3:6 I planted a seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.

John
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 11:26:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

However, If one prayes to be used by God, HE will put you on the wheel so that you may be able to withstand that which your being used will bring.



God doesn't need an invite... He does according to his will... He moved Pharoah to both keep and let His people go, and later moved him to chase after God's people to his watery grave... Of course he raised him to power to show His greatness in the first place... I doubt Pharoah prayed to God to be used by Him...

The 12 were told they didn't choose, they were ordained...

John the Baptist...

The ones who came on their own accord left when Christ said only those given to Him by the Father can come to Him...

God is in complete control... The future is His plan forthcoming and History is nothing less than His revealed will...

John
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/23/2008 11:31:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

Jacob and Esau - are they types of this? Also Cain and Abel. Just as Adam is the type of Jesus.


Exactly. By the same token Esau was not "predestined" to wrath. He chose that path freely. (See Heb. 12:15-17).



God for no reason having to do with Esau or Jacob chose Jacob... God didn't look into the future, He simply made a choice of one over the other... What was Esau to do?

John



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 1:03:05 AM)

As I'm here to learn and believe truth as God reveals it to me, I appreciate the input on this thread. Some of your posts are making a lot of sense to me. Some aren't.



Ezra -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 1:39:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

Jacob and Esau - are they types of this? Also Cain and Abel. Just as Adam is the type of Jesus.


Exactly. By the same token Esau was not "predestined" to wrath. He chose that path freely. (See Heb. 12:15-17).



God for no reason having to do with Esau or Jacob chose Jacob... God didn't look into the future, He simply made a choice of one over the other... What was Esau to do?

John


So Esau was just a puppet on a string manipulated by God so that he would sin and lose his birthright. Chapter and verse please.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 10:08:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

Jacob and Esau - are they types of this? Also Cain and Abel. Just as Adam is the type of Jesus.


Exactly. By the same token Esau was not "predestined" to wrath. He chose that path freely. (See Heb. 12:15-17).



God for no reason having to do with Esau or Jacob chose Jacob... God didn't look into the future, He simply made a choice of one over the other... What was Esau to do?

John


So Esau was just a puppet on a string manipulated by God so that he would sin and lose his birthright. Chapter and verse please.


I didn't say he was a puppet on a string manipulated by God, that would be Pharoah.... My question is what could Esau do? God for no reason regarding his actions chose his brother over him... Was there anything Esau could do to change that?

John



Bluethread -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 2:20:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Why would God be wrathfull against vessels of dissonor if they are doing what they are created for?
If He created some simply for the purpose of destroying them, they owe Him reverence simply because He blessed them with life, even if that life be miserable.

Do you think that God is a Sadomasochist subtracting the sexual aspect?
You do if you think that God takes plesure in creating sentient being for the sole purpose of destroyng them in hell.


Sadomasochism is a psycological/phylosophical construct designed to explain certain human behavior. Not even all humans labeled as sadomasochists are adequately described by this construct, let alone Adonai. His ways are not our ways and do not believe we are to question His motives. Though it is healthy and appropreate to morn ones losses, I believe, we are, even in our morning, to acknowledge the blessings of Adonai. This is, in my opinion, the lesson of Iyov(Job).



drmark -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 4:47:59 PM)

quote:

I didn't say he was a puppet on a string manipulated by God, that would be Pharoah
Nonsense! At least seven times in Exodus, God's Word states that Pharoah hardened his own heart or his heart became hard. No one is a "puppet on a string", John - we all have choices to make and God used Pharoah's choices to rescue His people.



Ezra -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 7:15:33 PM)

quote:

I didn't say he was a puppet on a string manipulated by God, that would be Pharoah.... My question is what could Esau do? God for no reason regarding his actions chose his brother over him... Was there anything Esau could do to change that?


Now you're just compounding the error.

Neither Esau nor Pharoah were puppets or manipulated by God in any way (as drmark has already pointed out). Indeed there is neither man nor angel that is manipulated by God into sinning. Neither Judas nor Pilate could ever use that excuse.

Esau could have done something, and simply followed the example of his grandfather Abraham. Esau must have been fully aware of God's relationship with Abraham and Isaac, since God had appeared to both of them.

He could have believed God also. Since as the older son he was entitled to the birthright, he could have trusted God instead of deluding himself that he would die if he could not eat something right then. He was just famished and weak, and he could have cooked himself a dinner earlier instead of allowing himself to get "faint" (KJV). Instead he put his belly above his spiritual birthright. Scripture says "thus Esau DESPISED his birthright" (Gen. 25: 34). He chose his path against all that was best, and God, having already seen that, rejected Esau:

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who FOR ONE MORSEL OF MEAT, sold his birthright. For ye know how that AFTERWARD, when he would have inherited the blessing, HE WAS REJECTED: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears" (Heb. 12:16,17).

Note carefully the progression:
1. One morsel of meat
2. sold his birthright
3. afterward (or as a result of which)
4. he was rejected.

This is not pre-determinism but cause and effect.

Not to say that Jacob was much better. He was a cheat, but he did believe that the birthright was of great value, and stole it from his brother by deceit. But God looked beyond to when Jacob would be truly saved and would trust God, and become a prince with God and man. That's the meaning of "Israel".

Thus Esau became a vessel unto dishonour while Jacob became a vessel of mercy. The Potter did not manipulate the clay but simply let the clay make choices and take responsibility for those choices. Man is not only clay but has a conscience, a soul, a spirit, and free will. Above all, men can have a personal relationship with the Creator if they will believe Him.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 9:30:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

Neither Esau nor Pharoah were puppets or manipulated by God in any way .



Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Are you contending that the act of God hardning his heart will not have an effect?

Exodus 9:12 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Isn't that what Moses was asking for? For Pharaoh to let the children of Israel go?

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

Would have Pharaoh chase after them had God not acted?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

quote:



Indeed there is neither man nor angel that is manipulated by God into sinning. Neither Judas nor Pilate could ever use that excuse.

Esau could have done something, and simply followed the example of his grandfather Abraham. Esau must have been fully aware of God's relationship with Abraham and Isaac, since God had appeared to both of them.

He could have believed God also. Since as the older son he was entitled to the birthright, he could have trusted God instead of deluding himself that he would die if he could not eat something right then. He was just famished and weak, and he could have cooked himself a dinner earlier instead of allowing himself to get "faint" (KJV). Instead he put his belly above his spiritual birthright. Scripture says "thus Esau DESPISED his birthright" (Gen. 25: 34). He chose his path against all that was best, and God, having already seen that, rejected Esau:

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who FOR ONE MORSEL OF MEAT, sold his birthright. For ye know how that AFTERWARD, when he would have inherited the blessing, HE WAS REJECTED: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears" (Heb. 12:16,17).

Note carefully the progression:
1. One morsel of meat
2. sold his birthright
3. afterward (or as a result of which)
4. he was rejected.

This is not pre-determinism but cause and effect.


Paul penned that God chose the one over the other for reasons having NOTHING to do with either of them...

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,


John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 9:34:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

I didn't say he was a puppet on a string manipulated by God, that would be Pharoah
Nonsense! At least seven times in Exodus, God's Word states that Pharoah hardened his own heart or his heart became hard. No one is a "puppet on a string", John - we all have choices to make and God used Pharoah's choices to rescue His people.


Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God's will, or Pharaoh's choice?



Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Are you contending that the act of God hardning his heart will not have an effect?

Exodus 9:12 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Isn't that what Moses was asking for? For Pharaoh to let the children of Israel go?

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

Would have Pharaoh chase after them had God not acted?


John
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.



drmark -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/24/2008 9:59:44 PM)

quote:

God's will, or Pharaoh's choice?
BOTH, John, and you cannot deny Scripture on this point!

quote:

Would have Pharaoh chase after them had God not acted?
I have no idea and neither do you. What we do know is that Pharoah made a choice to go back on his intentions and God foreknew that choice and used it as part of His sovereign Will to punish the Egyptians and bring glory to Himself. Hypotheticals are irrelevant to the factual historical account!



Ezra -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 12:02:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Are you contending that the act of God hardning his heart will not have an effect?


Not at all. God said that to Moses knowing full well that Pharoah would repeatedly harden his own heart until he was beyond the point of repentance, after which God would harden his heart. Beyond a certain limit, God Himself hardens the heart, blinds the eyes and shuts the ears. Pharoah exhausted all his opportunities to repent. Read the record.


quote:

Paul penned that God chose the one over the other for reasons having NOTHING to do with either of them...

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,


This verse needs to to properly interpreted in order to be properly understood. Scripture interprets Scripture,. therefore this verse must be interpreted in the light of all that is stated about Esau and Jacob, including what was quoted from the book of Hebrews.

The proper interpretation of this verse is that there was absolutely nothing in Esau or Jacob which would cause the LORD to choose one over the other. Since they had done nothing good or bad before or after their birth, that was not a criterion. And in any event, they had no merit, since they were both sinners.

And since God's purpose of election is not on the basis of merit but purely because of His grace, Jacob was not chosen over Esau because of any good works, neither was Esau rejected because of "bad works". Esau was rejected because of unbelief, and Jacob was accepted because of his faith. That's what this passage teaches in the light of all Scripture concerning these brothers. Election is always on the basis of grace, and grace is offered where there is faith and repentance. This is a fundamental Gospel principle.

So it is true that even before they were born God had chosen Jacob over Esau, but that does not exclude His foreknowledge of the nature of each one. Jacob was seen as a vessel of honour and Esau a vessel of dishonour before they were born.



bob97 -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 12:05:47 AM)

Sorry to just but in here but when I read the following verses…I have to think that God did harden Pharaoh’s heart.

Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exodus 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
Exodus 10:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Exodus 11:10
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.
Exodus 14:8
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel
Exodus 14:17
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour.


Bob



drmark -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 7:28:01 AM)

Yes, Bob, God hardened Pharoah's heart and Pharoah hardened his own heart. Both Sovereignty and free will are clearly seen at work in these passages from Exodus. Those that claim "predeterminism" have no real understanding of God's Soveeignty as described throughout the totality of Scripture. This is the point Ezra and I are making.



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 9:33:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Sorry to just but in here but when I read the following verses…I have to think that God did harden Pharaoh’s heart.

If this is true, then, God did not harden Pharaoh's heart in judgment because of Pharaoh’s choice to do it first but God hardened Pharaoh's heart just to use Him as a pawn in HIS plane.
This would make Pharaoh innocent in the whole matter because Pharaoh did not choose to rebel, but was dominated to do God's will; and by doing God's will, Pharaoh must be commended in what he actually did.

1Sam 6:6 Why then do you harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had worked wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Here, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't. Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it?

PHARAOH HARDENED HIS OWN HEART...
If God hardened Pharaoh's heart, the Scripture would be specific about God doing the hardening as the Scriptures do .
1. And Pharaoh's heart grew hard (chazaq), and he did not heed
them, as the Lord had said. - Exo 7:13
2. So the Lord said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard (kabed); he
refuses to let the people go." - Exo 7:14
3. Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and
Pharaoh's heart grew hard (chazaq), and he did not heed them,
as the Lord had said. - Exo 7:22
4. But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened (kabed)
his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said. - Exo 8:15
5. Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of
God." But Pharaoh's heart grew hard (chazaq), and he did not
heed them, just as the Lord had said. - Exo 8:19
6. But Pharaoh hardened (kabed) his heart at this time also;
neither would he let the people go. - Exo 8:32
7. Then Pharaoh sent, and indeed, not even one of the livestock of
the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh became hard
(kabed), and he did not let the people go. - Exo 9:7

THEN GOD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART...
-- Not until the sixth plague did God begin to harden Pharaoh's heart
1.[/B] But the Lord hardened (chazaq) the heart of Pharaoh; and he did
not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses. - Exo 9:12
2. Now the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have
hardened (kabed) his heart and the hearts of his servants, that
I may show these signs of Mine before him," - Exo 10:1
3. But the Lord hardened (chazaq) Pharaoh's heart, and he did not
let the children of Israel go.- Exo 10:20
4. But the Lord hardened (chazaq) Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let
them go.- Exo 10:27
5. So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and
the Lord hardened (chazaq) Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let
the children of Israel go out of his land. - Exo 11:10
6. Then I will harden (chazaq) Pharaoh's heart, so that he will
pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all
his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.
- Exo 14:4
7. And the Lord hardened (chazaq) the heart of Pharaoh king of
Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children
of Israel went out with boldness. - Exo 14:8
8. And I indeed will harden (chazaq) the hearts of the Egyptians,
and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh
and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen. - Exo
14:17



drmark -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 10:01:41 AM)

quote:

1Sam 6:6 Why then do you harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had worked wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Here, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't. Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it?
Great reference, Diolectic! Thanks so much for finding Scripture that interprets Scripture. The faulty concepts of predeterminism, irresistible grace, and completely non-participatory lumps of clay are readily refuted by proper understanding of God's Word.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 10:15:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

God's will, or Pharaoh's choice?
BOTH, John, and you cannot deny Scripture on this point!


Gee... We have God's will in this corner facing off with man's will... I wonder who gets their way...


quote:

quote:

Would have Pharaoh chase after them had God not acted?
I have no idea and neither do you. What we do know is that Pharoah made a choice to go back on his intentions and God foreknew that choice and used it as part of His sovereign Will to punish the Egyptians and bring glory to Himself. Hypotheticals are irrelevant to the factual historical account!


The verses speak of God making a person doing something... It's painfully obvious that God has intentions when HE moved Pharaoh.

I will do X to Pharaoh so he will do Y... God full well knowing the future still made a POINT to make something happen... Interesting.. Looks like a demonstration of power and control to me... If it's not that it would make the verses pointless...

John
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.



drmark -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 10:22:13 AM)

quote:

Gee... We have God's will in this corner facing off with man's will... I wonder who gets their way...
Yes John, we will always "wonder who gets their way", because we cannot see the future like God can. But foreknowledge is NOT predeterminism and I'm sorry your faulty theology cannot understand or accept this simple Biblical fact! That's what is painfully obvious to some of us.



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 11:46:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic:
Do you think that God is a Sadomasochist subtracting the sexual aspect?
You do if you think that God takes plesure in creating sentient being for the sole purpose of destroyng them in hell.

adomasochism is a psycological/phylosophical construct designed to explain certain human behavior.
No, it is a term that we use to describe those who take plesure in inflicting pain.
Them who are Sadomasochists are perverts.

quote:

Not even all humans labeled as sadomasochists are adequately described by this construct, let alone Adonai
I could agree, however, I don't know a word that would be close to describe a god that takes plesure in creating sentient beings for the sole purpose of tormenting in hell other than for judgment of their own free will rebelion.

quote:

His ways are not our ways and do not believe we are to question His motives.
That is not even close to HIS motive. I'm not questioning God's motive, but man's perverted theology.

Furthermore, I don't need to question His motives, because I know that they are all righteous, just, & good.

However, to create sentient beings for the sole purpose of tormenting in hell other than for judgment of their own free will rebelion is not righteous, just, & good!

If God were to do such, they who are such are doing God's will for that is what they are created for & to do, God could not judge them. This is a logical obserdity.

quote:

Though it is healthy and appropriate to morn ones losses, I believe, we are, even in our morning, to acknowledge the blessings of Adonai. This is, in my opinion, the lesson of Iyov(Job).
Huh?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 1:38:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Gee... We have God's will in this corner facing off with man's will... I wonder who gets their way...
Yes John, we will always "wonder who gets their way", because we cannot see the future like God can.


I am sure God gets His way... What in the bible can be certain? It's up for grabs... Nah... God ordained the future... Pharoah didn't stumble into power and had not God moved him to do, he wouldn't have become a floater...

quote:


But foreknowledge is NOT predeterminism and I'm sorry your faulty theology cannot understand or accept this simple Biblical fact! That's what is painfully obvious to some of us.


Like this simple Biblical fact?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I guess your version of the verse has a disclaimer that states only if the king allows it...

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 2:09:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

If this is true, then, God did not harden Pharaoh's heart in judgment because of Pharaoh’s choice to do it first but God hardened Pharaoh's heart just to use Him as a pawn in HIS plane.


Just as God raised Pharaoh into power(no choice there for Pharaoh) He as well moved him to demostrate His power...


quote:


This would make Pharaoh innocent in the whole matter because Pharaoh did not choose to rebel, but was dominated to do God's will; and by doing God's will, Pharaoh must be commended in what he actually did.


Paul answered this...

Romans 9

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Heck... If you think what he did to Pharaoh was bad what about poor Job... What on earth did Job do to make God allow Satan to do everything to Job but kill him?

John



Diolectic -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 4:57:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

If this is true, then, God did not harden Pharaoh's heart in judgment because of Pharaoh’s choice to do it first but God hardened Pharaoh's heart just to use Him as a pawn in HIS plane.
Just as God raised Pharaoh into power(no choice there for Pharaoh) He as well moved him to demostrate His power...
Romans 9:17 For the scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
God could have well shown His power in Pharaoh if he had obeyed Moses.

The fact that God commanded Pharaoh to do so through Moses tells us that is what God wanted in the first place.

Why do you insist on makeing God want people to sin?

quote:

quote:

This would make Pharaoh innocent in the whole matter because Pharaoh did not choose to rebel, but was dominated to do God's will; and by doing God's will, Pharaoh must be commended in what he actually did.
Paul answered this...

Romans 9

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, then after resisting God, then God hardened his heart in judgment.
Now, after God hardens ones heart in judgment, "who has resisted his will" then?

quote:

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Co-text:
Jer 18:2-6 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear my words.
:3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he worked a work on the wheels.
:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter hand to reform the clay into a new vessel.

Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred.
God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.

Furthermore in 2Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and fit for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This verse is telling us that we ourselves choose what kind of vessel we may be.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 5:43:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

God could have well shown His power in Pharaoh if he had obeyed Moses.


Yet He didn't, so what He could have amounts to nothing here... God did what He according to His will, not man's...


quote:

The fact that God commanded Pharaoh to do so through Moses tells us that is what God wanted in the first place.


The fact remains... God moved manipulated Pharaoh so that he would not let God's people go...


quote:

Why do you insist on makeing God want people to sin?


God can do as He pleases... It's His creation...

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.


quote:

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.


Either God is the Potter or He's not...

quote:


This verse is telling us that we ourselves choose what kind of vessel we may be.


Co-Potters? I thought God was a jealous God?

John



Bluethread -> RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? (4/25/2008 5:47:36 PM)

quote:

Dialectic:

However, to create sentient beings for the sole purpose of tormenting in hell other than for judgment of their own free will rebelion is not righteous, just, & good!


Romans 9:21 "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--"

Paul presents this as a hypothetical in order to show the importance of having a reverence for Adonai. By presenting it as a hypthetical, he also side steps the obligation of justifying it as fact. This is my position also. We also see, Paul arguing that the purpose of such situations would be "to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy". Therefore, as Adonai provides animals for our consumption, so Adonai might provide such individuals for our instruction. Pharoah might be an example of this.

As to their condemnation to hell. That would be a by product and not the primary purpose. Of course that presumes one accepts the doctrine of the eturnal torment of humans.



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