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Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/18/2008 12:46:39 AM
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fallenstar
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This post has to do with the Bible, and the question I have to ask is mainly for Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. I was reading the Jehovah's Witness book, called "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" and on a page in the back it was stating that Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel are the same "person", or being. Jehovah's Witnesses, why don't they just call Michael the Archangel Christ the Archangel, why the change of name? (I ask Catholics because they say prayers to Michael the Archangel, just so you know why I mentioned it in the beggining.) I honestly don't understand. And also, are Jehovah's Witnesses Christians? I'm not really sure, because I am a new believer and my previous faith was somthing opposite of Christianity. Even if you are'nt Catholic or Jehovah's Witness and you have an answer to my question, feel free to say so.
 Thanks
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/18/2008 2:17:24 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
This post has to do with the Bible, and the question I have to ask is mainly for Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. I was reading the Jehovah's Witness book, called "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" and on a page in the back it was stating that Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel are the same "person", or being. Jehovah's Witnesses, why don't they just call Michael the Archangel Christ the Archangel, why the change of name? (I ask Catholics because they say prayers to Michael the Archangel, just so you know why I mentioned it in the beggining.) I honestly don't understand. And also, are Jehovah's Witnesses Christians? I'm not really sure, because I am a new believer and my previous faith was somthing opposite of Christianity. Even if you are'nt Catholic or Jehovah's Witness and you have an answer to my question, feel free to say so.
Thanks
Okay. I've never been a Jehovah's Witness, but I've looked at some of their teachings out of curiosity. There are several reasons I don't classify them as Christians and it is because they don't believe in the Trinity and they have twisted what the Bible says about many topics.
Michael the Archangel was a created being as are all other angels. God created the angels. Everything except God has been created. Jesus is our Creator and could not be a created being. He has always existed as God.
Colossians 1
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church:
Jehovah's Witnesses take the phrase "firstborn of every creature" and try to say that Christ was a creature.
The Bible warns us about calling God a creature:
Romans 1
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
The phrase, "firstborn of every creature," can be translated literally as "begotten before all creation." He had to have been there before creation, because He created all creation!
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
When men start to worship angels, the angel always prohibits it. Jesus does not.
Revelation 22
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
We are to worship Jesus:
Revelation 14
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Seventh-day Adventists used to teach “The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty” Ellen G. White (1903, ms 150, SDA
Commentary V, p. 1129)
They also taught that Christ was Michael the Archangel. For a reason unknown to me, they now claim to believe in the Trinity.
However, I read online that they have changed the Bible:
Jude 1:9
King James Bible - "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
Clear Word Bible - "In contrast to these ungodly men is the Lord Jesus Christ, also called Michael, the archangel in charge of the entire angelic host. When He was challenged by Satan about His intentions to resurrect Moses, He didn't come against Satan with a blistering attack nor did he belittle him. He simply said, 'God rejects your claim to his body.'"
Michael
"We believe that the term 'Michael' is but one of the many titles applied to the Son of God, the second person of the Godhead. But such a view does not in any way conflict with our belief in His full deity and eternal pre-existence, nor does it in the least disparage His person and work."- Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine, Review and Herald Publishing Association, Washington D.C., 1957. Chapter 8 "Christ, and Michael the Archangel".
Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses, had studied with the Seventh-day Adventists. He incorporated some of their teachings into the Jehovah's Witnesses religion.
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/18/2008 2:10:01 PM
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Bluethread
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It's not just the JWs and catholics that see Michael the arch angel as an epiphany, many make this connection. I have never seen where it has been clearly stated in the Scriptures, so I see it a rabbinics(theological speculation). Regarding whether the JWs are part of the household of faith, I don't judge things that way. Some may be. Some may not. Some would say catholics are not of the household of faith. It isn't affiliation that saves someone, but what one believes. I prefer not to say is X a christian, but is what X teaches Scriptural. This may be seen as nit picking by some, but it focuses on evaluating ones views rather than passing judgment on their spiritual state.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/18/2008 2:16:50 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/18/2008 2:42:59 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It's not just the JWs and catholics that see Michael the arch angel as an epiphany, many make this connection. I have never seen where it has been clearly stated in the Scriptures, so I see it a rabbinics(theological speculation). Regarding whether the JWs are part of the household of faith, I don't judge things that way. Some may be. Some may not. Some would say catholics are not of the household of faith. It isn't affiliation that saves someone, but what one believes. I prefer not to say is X a christian, but is what X teaches Scriptural. This may be seen as nit picking by some, but it focuses on evaluating ones views rather than passing judgment on their spiritual state.
Well I am not much of one to call someone Christian or not, but anyone who thisnks Michael the Archangel is Jesus is so confused they don't know who Christ is.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/19/2008 1:03:41 AM
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Lurker
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Didn't we hold a council in Nicea to help squash the idea that Jesus is a created being rather than God?
I seem to recall a creed of some sort came about from it too.... ;)
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/19/2008 2:16:34 AM
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fallenstar
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But if Christ is God, then why is he called the son of God? Are'nt we ALL children of God, not just Jesus?
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/19/2008 5:21:15 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
But if Christ is God, then why is he called the son of God? Are'nt we ALL children of God, not just Jesus?
Jesus called God the Father, "Father." God the Father called Jesus, "Son."
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (Luke 23:34 KJV)
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 3:17 KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:! KJV)
He was with God.
_________________________
Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
If the Son is just another child of God, how is it that we have redemption through his blood and what is this kingdom of his and how did he deliver us from the power of darkness?
_____________________________
quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
Are'nt we ALL children of God, not just Jesus?
Um, can you and did you create all things?
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Colossians 1:16)
quote:
Are'nt we ALL children of God
Christians are adopted children of God. Jesus was not adopted.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Ephesians 1:5 KJV)
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Galatians 4:5 KJV)
1For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (Romans 8:15)
Not everyone is a child of God:
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)
____________________________
Who is God?
Hebrews 1 : 1, 2, 8 — God the Father calls the Son, "God."
Acts 5 : 3-4 --Peter calls the Holy Spirit, "God."
John 6 : 27 --Jesus calls the Father, "God."
Who raised Christ from the dead?
Acts 10 : 39-40 — God raised Christ from the dead.
1 Thessalonians 1 : 10 — God the Father raised the Son from the dead.
Romans 8 : 11 — God the Spirit raised the Son from the dead.
John 2 : 19-22 — God the Son raised Himself from the dead.
Jesus was not only God; He was sent by God:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17 KJV)
_________________________________
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:3 NIV)
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14 NIV)
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/19/2008 10:29:14 AM
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TJO5
Posts: 172
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Hello fallenstar,
quote:
This post has to do with the Bible, and the question I have to ask is mainly for Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. I was reading the Jehovah's Witness book, called "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" and on a page in the back it was stating that Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel are the same "person", or being. Jehovah's Witnesses, why don't they just call Michael the Archangel Christ the Archangel, why the change of name? (I ask Catholics because they say prayers to Michael the Archangel, just so you know why I mentioned it in the beggining.) I honestly don't understand. And also, are Jehovah's Witnesses Christians? I'm not really sure, because I am a new believer and my previous faith was somthing opposite of Christianity. Even if you are'nt Catholic or Jehovah's Witness and you have an answer to my question, feel free to say so.
I am neither Catholic nor Jehovah's Witness,but i do have the answer to your question.
Having spent quite a bit of time debating JWs on other forums I know how they determine this.
It comes from the book of Daniel ,where both Messiah and Michael are called Prince. However if you look up the Hebrew/Chaldee words used in the original texts you will find different words were used.
The JWs do not care that angels are created beings-they believe Christ was created as well-the firstborn...etc. (many arguments taken out of context or totally misapplied.
They do not believe John 1:1 that the Word was God and have their own translation which states that the Word was "a" God (He was divine)-their own translaters are not named as they do not wish to glorify themselves for their translation work.
And I consider them a cult because most of their doctrine denies the essential beliefs of Christianity,but more importantly-
a cult is a group who believes that they are the "only" way to God- denominations will insist that they are correct in doctrine but will admit that they are not the only way.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, [That] from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, [There shall be] seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
Daniel 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.
Daniel 10:20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come.
Daniel 10:21 "But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.
Daniel 11:5 " Also the king of the South shall become strong, as well as [one] of his princes; and he shall gain power over him and have dominion. His dominion [shall be] a great dominion.
Daniel 11:8 "And he shall also carry their gods captive to Egypt, with their princes [and] their precious articles of silver and gold; and he shall continue [more] years than the king of the North.
Daniel 11:22 "With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant.
Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/19/2008 2:19:34 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2268
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Jesus could NOT have been created. He was the Creator.
Col. 1:16-17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Satan is the prince of the power of the air (Eph.2:2 below). Satan is the “god” (2 Cor.4:4 below) of this present evil world (Gal.1:4 below).
2 Cor.4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Eph.2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph. 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/19/2008 2:24:40 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
Are'nt we ALL children of God, not just Jesus?
No. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. God has no other begotten children. Nothing in all of creation can claim to have inherent rights to be called a child of God. Only the Son, who was begotten by the Father from eternity, can claim the rights He inherits as the Son of God.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/19/2008 4:10:14 PM
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real58
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J. W. are a cult, they are not Christian and have distorted the Scriptures to say what they want them to say. In other words they do not base their believes on what is in the Bible but have changed the Bible to say what fits their views. The average JW is sincere in what they belive their organization "The Watch Tower" has led them astray.
Catholics do not believe that Michael is Jesus. They believe with the rest of Christianity that Jesus is God. That he is one of the persons of the Trinity. They do not pray to Michael but do ask Michael to intercede for them (a belief that the most of the rest of Christianity doesn't practice)
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/21/2008 1:54:44 PM
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Bluethread
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I do agree that Yeshua(Jesus) is Adonai, the only one who is part of Him and therefore His Son. The rest of us are His special creation that bear His image. Yeshua has, by means of the covenant He both made with Avraham and secured as the Pesach(Passover Lamb), given us the power to become the (adoptive) children of Adonai.
This said, I believe Adonai can manifest Himself as Michael the Archangel or any other form He chooses. The questions are is this supported by Scripture and do the observations and actions of Michael preclude him from being a manifestation of Adonai. As I have said before, I do not see a clear identification of Michael as Adonai in the Scriptures. Now we must search the Scriptures to see anything that is recorded in the Scriptures that precludes this, regardless of what those of you who were at Nicea decided. Maybe those of you who were there could fill the rest of us in on your conclusions relate to this subject.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/21/2008 2:46:58 PM
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bob97
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All of Hebrews 1 would tend to discredit any connection between Christ and Michael. The angels have a very distinct role to play and that is to be spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation. Christ being God Himself and having created angels has no need to manifest Himself into the role of an angel; He has only to send them to do his bidding.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/21/2008 5:02:01 PM
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Bluethread
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Heb 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
If Adonai was willing to take on the form of a man who is lower than the angels, why could He not, for some unknown purpose, have taken the form of an angel? I am not arguing that He did, I am only saying that nothing that I can see in Hebrews one says that he could not have.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/23/2008 12:04:01 AM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If Adonai was willing to take on the form of a man who is lower than the angels, why could He not, for some unknown purpose, have taken the form of an angel? I am not arguing that He did, I am only saying that nothing that I can see in Hebrews one says that he could not have.
Jude 1:9
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Jesus Christ is the LORD of Lords and the King of Kings. Michael appealed to the LORD to rebuke the devil, but Jesus Christ has authority to do that in His own right. Jesus Christ is clearly not the angel Michael.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/23/2008 10:53:44 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If Adonai was willing to take on the form of a man who is lower than the angels, why could He not, for some unknown purpose, have taken the form of an angel? I am not arguing that He did, I am only saying that nothing that I can see in Hebrews one says that he could not have.
Arguing a negative is a very dangerous thing to do, as it is the seed of confusion, doubt, and false doctrines.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/23/2008 12:37:34 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
figmentPez:
Jude 1:9
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Jesus Christ is the LORD of Lords and the King of Kings. Michael appealed to the LORD to rebuke the devil, but Jesus Christ has authority to do that in His own right. Jesus Christ is clearly not the angel Michael.
If you hold that Yeshua(Jesus) and Ha Adonai Elohiem(The Lord Almighty) are one and the same, as I do, your point is well taken. But, for the trinitarians, this could be seen as a rhetorical statement in which "the person" of Yeshua points to "the person" of Adonai Elohiem as the ultimate authority.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/23/2008 12:48:34 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/23/2008 11:30:26 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If you hold that Yeshua(Jesus) and Ha Adonai Elohiem(The Lord Almighty) are one and the same, as I do, your point is well taken. But, for the trinitarians, this could be seen as a rhetorical statement in which "the person" of Yeshua points to "the person" of Adonai Elohiem as the ultimate authority.
I'm a trinitarian. Anyone who rejects the triune God is not Christian. Trinitarian doctrine teaches what scripture does. Scripture teaches this:
Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
Psalm 8:6
6You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
1 Peter 3:22
22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
Hebrews 2:8
8"YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET "
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
Furthermore, scripture says this of the Son:
Revelation 17:14
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
Hebrews 1:8,10
8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
...
10And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Psalm 102:15,25
15So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
...
25"Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
So, we see that scripture does make a clear distinction between the Son of God and the Father, but that scripture also clearly says that the Son has been given ALL authority by the Father, including authority over angels and demons. Furthermore, we see that the Son is the LORD of lords and the King of kings, and is declared to be the LORD who created heaven and earth.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/24/2008 12:06:17 PM
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Bluethread
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To stay on topic, the word translated "Lord" in the KJV is Adonai in hebrew, as in Adonai Elohiem(Lord Almighty). Few dispute that Adonai Elohiem refers to what you would call the "person" of the Father. Therefore, what is surprising about the "person" of Yeshua(Jesus), refering to Himself as Michael(Who is like Adonai?), appealing to the "person" of Adonai Elohiem for a judicial opinion?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/24/2008 4:30:27 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
To stay on topic, the word translated "Lord" in the KJV is Adonai in hebrew, as in Adonai Elohiem(Lord Almighty). Few dispute that Adonai Elohiem refers to what you would call the "person" of the Father. Therefore, what is surprising about the "person" of Yeshua(Jesus), refering to Himself as Michael(Who is like Adonai?), appealing to the "person" of Adonai Elohiem for a judicial opinion?
There are multiple words translated as lord or Lord in the OT. There is, however, only one word translated as LORD (note the all caps). That word is the tetrgrammaton, roughly transliterated as YHWH, the name of God. LORD is a very specific word and, although the word is not used in the NT (since the NT is Greek, not Hebrew), there are OT passages quoted that, in the original Hebrew, use the name of the LORD. None dispute that the LORD refers to God, and God alone. The Son of God is the LORD, just as surely as the Father is. The LORD does not need to defer to the LORD for judgment, because the LORD is the LORD.
Also, the Son does not refer to Himself as Michael. You've made some sort of unfounded assumption there.
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I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/24/2008 5:02:06 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 836
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Jude 1:9
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
This passage is derived from rabbinic literature and not the Tanach(old testiment) itself. The rabbis took the idea of Michael from the Tanach and derived the above interchange. Jude is either validating this event or is refering to it as common knowledge to support another point. Be that as it may, Michael is metioned many times in the Tanach. Some believe that those are cases where Yeshua(Jesus) appeared refering to Himself as Michael(Who is like Adonai?).
My point being that this view is not disproven by the passage above because, in a courtroom context, there is no problem with the defense attorney(Yeshua) appealing to the judge(Adonai Elohiem) on a point of established fact. I believe, in context, Jude is saying that we should not associate with those who reject the Tanach and replace it with their own teachings. Now in light of this, if one wishes to disprove the belief that Michael is an appearance of Yeshua in the Tanach, it would be best to use the Tanach to do so.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/24/2008 6:24:40 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2602
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
My point being that this view is not disproven by the passage above because, in a courtroom context, there is no problem with the defense attorney(Yeshua) appealing to the judge(Adonai Elohiem) on a point of established fact. I believe, in context, Jude is saying that we should not associate with those who reject the Tanach and replace it with their own teachings. Now in light of this, if one wishes to disprove the belief that Michael is an appearance of Yeshua in the Tanach, it would be best to use the Tanach to do so.
I refuse to go to what is not scripture, when the proof is already in scripture. Jesus Christ has all authority, as LORD. He does not need to appeal to the LORD, because He is LORD.
Your claim is that the Son appealed to the Father to do what He did not have authority to do. This is absurd. I challenge you to find any instance in scripture of the Son doing so.
John 5:22-23
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Acts 10:42
He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.
You dishonor the Son by claiming that He does not have the authority that the Father says He has, and that He claims for Himself. Michael the Archangel is not Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ has authority that Michael does not.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? - 4/24/2008 7:27:55 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 836
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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ta_mosquito:
Thank you. At least someone can follow a logical argument. I hope you and figmentPez realize that the Tanach is what is called by some the old testiment.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/24/2008 7:35:15 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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