Advice for women working with men. (Full Version)

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lil_gringa -> Advice for women working with men. (4/18/2008 9:43:30 PM)

Sometimes, I'm the leader in certain ministry aspects and it hasn't always been easy for me to gain the respect of the men I'm working with.

When we moved to Mexico, I submitted myself to the churches worship leader who became one of our best friends. We worked together, vacationed together, traveled together and ministered together. About 2 years went by when he gave me a 'title' in his music ministry overseeing the voices.



lil_gringa -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/18/2008 9:44:38 PM)

I started interviews with his permission. Then, it felt like he turned on me and it's never been the same. I talked to him and explained that I didn't need a position, that I just wanted to help and he seemed appreciative. Today, we are more like acquaintances than siblings, as we once were. I'm sometimes still heart broken about it but we have both moved on to pastor our own churches so it's not that bad anymore.

What advice could you give to a woman leader when having to work with men?



lil_gringa -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/19/2008 12:49:36 PM)

The silence is deafening guys! It's a touchy subject but there has to be some comments. Many are interested by the amount of views I see.

You could say a women's place is in the home! Say something[:D] lol



PreserveWildlife -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/19/2008 4:30:37 PM)

I'd actually need to know more precisely what the problem is before saying anything.

In general I'd say this: Be yourself, don't cower, don't overcompensate with aggression/assertiveness, be competent and productive. In other words, there's nothing special to do other than the job.



lil_gringa -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/19/2008 5:53:00 PM)

He called me one day and told me that he and his wife were going to be ministering over the voices and not me. If a word or scripture needed to be given, it'd come from him. He let me minister to the group once after he placed me in this position. I had talked with the group about not being jealous of others. I'd gone over everything with him before hand. I always got permission before doing anything. He just wanted me to help with finding parts. So, I guess the answer is that I miss understood what he had asked me to do in the beginning because of a language barrier, possibly over stepped my boundaries with his permission. When he said I'd be caring for the voices, he didn't mean in a shepherd form, just a technical form.

With his permission, I'd already began counseling with a woman in an abusive situation. There was a huge communication breakdown between the leader and the people. There is a lack of education here. He used me to call musicians and voices to remind them of practice, give rides and asked me to help him with the women which I figured that meant me counseling them which was difficult because I'm still learning Spanish.



colliefan -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/19/2008 8:47:55 PM)

quote:

When we moved to Mexico,


Wild guess, but machismo is part of the Mexican culture and you may have oversteped cultural boundaries.



dinomax55 -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/19/2008 8:48:49 PM)

That seems more like a personality conflict than a gender one.. Perhaps he is the type who wants control over a situation, instead of delegating..



lil_gringa -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/20/2008 1:02:41 AM)

Let me add another element. We were very close, like siblings. I felt very convicted during a ladies Bible study recently when it talked about idols. I thought perhaps I'd errored and this relationship had become an idol in my life so the Lord removed it. Or, perhaps I or we had crossed or began to cross over into an emotional affair, but before that could happen the Lord separated us by shifting us to new ministries apart from one another.

During Easter there was an event where he was leading and because it was for my church and others in my area, I called him to ask if I could sing back up for him. In the past, he would have jumped at the chance to have me sing back up for him, but for the first time in 4 years, he turned me down flat! In this culture that was a HUGE offense! So, why is he being mean to me now? In the past he'd pick me up because he needed me to help him.

I'm going to tell you what else happened during that last phone conversation. Please bare with me. I told him that I still enjoyed singing with him and he played it down. "I can't believe it." I said I'd like to sing with him in this event and asked him to invite me. Then I told him of my upcoming event and he asked me to email him with the details and asked me to invite him to play in my 'gig'. Then, he asked if I still had his e-mail address? He said I had erased him and he saw it. Now I did delete him temporarily once a long, long time ago and asked to be reaccepted. I had even sent him an encouraging e-mail since that time when I'd heard things were going well in his church and he responded with a quick response. He is not deleted from my e-mail account. This is a game he plays with me and it really gets to me. When I told my husband about this, my husband said he'd deleted him from his account. So gentleman. Can you put my mind at ease? These are not signs of a man keeping away from an emotional affair, correct? A man doesn't get mean with a woman that he in the past said he cared for deeply as a his own sister, to protect his heart, or does he? I'd like to mark that option off if at all possible.

I think that it's only fare to mention that I think I may have been a favorite in the beginning, but it seems that someone else is his preferred back up singer. What he does, it seems manipulative, is show me text messages of encouragement from this other back up singer. He showed it to me in private once and said with a smile, "She always sends me messages like this." To me, he's saying, "I want you to do that too." Which I did not. Is that what that means to you men?

Someone brought up that perhaps he wants to be the one controlling everything. I can certainly accept that that too could have drawn a wedge in the relationship. My husband and I are very direct and this man will put off and procrastinate.

Do men sometimes tell a woman things about other women, in a way to manipulate them to do it too?



YZGUY -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/20/2008 3:17:33 PM)

quote:

Do men sometimes tell a woman things about other women, in a way to manipulate them to do it too?


Maybe - It's hard to say. Some do - But if so, that's like playing head games and quite honestly, is more about filling personal ego than honoring the Lord.

quote:

Can you put my mind at ease? These are not signs of a man keeping away from an emotional affair, correct? A man doesn't get mean with a woman that he in the past said he cared for deeply as a his own sister, to protect his heart, or does he? I'd like to mark that option off if at all possible.

Sorry, can't put your mind at ease. There are a number of possibilities, including the one of protecting his heart by distancing himself. The other possibility includes bitterness for some wrong or perceived wrong. The only way to know is to ask what the barrier is and if you have sinned against him in any way. And even then, the only way you'll know is if he is honest (which he probably won't be if he is protecting his heart).
Otherwise, back to your original question as to a woman leader with men is just to be respectful (honoring, show appreciation, and not to criticise him in front of others (sort of same advise for wives towards husbands)) - Personally, I have not subjected myself under a woman's authority, but will respectfully listen and hear their wisdom regarding situations, circumstances, and relationships.



ChoirDJ -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/22/2008 3:38:42 PM)

You said quite a bit there so I'm not even sure this will answer your question. I do want to point out some general priniciples here and other's may disagree. Firsty, I think the whole thing about women being silent in church and not exercising any authority over a man is a bit overblown in this era. It is my understanding that women according to the Bible women are not to exercise spiritual authority over a man in the sense of leading the relationship, spouse or otherwise. If you have a greater level of vocal expertise then this scripture should not preclude you from using that to help others. I can think of at least two women who head up a choir or song ministry even as I write this. I don't even see anything wrong with you sharing a scripture that is on your heart to encourage the group...but once again, the culture you are dealing with is quite different from American culture. As part of my training as a therapist, I conducted groups in Spanish for perpetrators of domestic violence and there was certainly a machismo factor in relation to women that I didn't see nearly as much in the English-speaking groups.

Regardless of how you proceed, you can't go wrong if you're always looking up.



lil_gringa -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/22/2008 10:29:25 PM)

I'm honored to have the counsel of a counselor and a therapist. I think if anyone could figure this gentleman out, you could! It's so hard in the form of a forum, but I really appreciate your thoughts.

Being that I'm a California girl, I'm a bit friendly, and sometimes I think that friendliness is misinterpreted. I wish I could tell you everything that was said to me but without being face to face, I'm afraid it would be taken wrong. I find this culture very affectionate, warm and open. I can never hide my emotions from them. One of my single guy friends would sit and stroke my hair during choir practice but it was never done in a perverse way. He was warm and loving in a pure way. He's at least 10 years younger than I am. At first it bothered me, then I watched him and he did that to our other married friend to and you could tell that he didn't mean anything by it. Then, on the other hand, what am I suppose to think if a Mexican keeps staring at me? It just depends, I think. It did make me very uncomfortable in the beginning and I'd get away as fast as I could because I couldn't understand it. They may have been fascinated by my blue eyes. If you've never experienced this culture, submersed in it, you just can't understand it. That's why I'm asking these questions. In my own culture I'm led to believe the negative and that isn't always the case.



ChoirDJ -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/26/2008 2:01:24 AM)

Are Mexican men in general staring at you or is it the same guy that's stroking your hair? Please don't take this as nothing more than a compliment but if that's you in the photo, you do seem to be fairly attractive and I could see why you might get some stares from men. I would feel very uncomfortable with the idea of someone stroking my hair (well for me that's not possible because I'm bald, lol) cultural differences or not. That just seems a little too personal and inappropriate for the occasion and I think I would feel my personal space was being violated. I think you have to use your intuition as to how you should deal with it since it may very well be an innocent thing. I'm not sure if that's commonplace there because I've never been to Mexico. I learned Spanish by studying in in high school and college and forcing myself to speak it often and I could tell you about many humorous blunders along the way.

btw - I was born and raised in So Cal...how about you?



lil_gringa -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/26/2008 11:13:33 PM)

I was born and reared(sounds funny) in N. Calif. North of Sac. My husband and I moved to S. Cal. after our honeymoon and have lived all over.

When I'm talking staring. I mean, when talking in a conversation, feeling like I'm being stared down. Someone told me it could be a power thing. I don't know. These Mexican men stare a lot! I've been here for over 4 years and would be friendly and wave if they whistled because one Mexican friend told me that they think I'm pretty. So I thought I'd be nice and humor them by acknowledging their presence. Then, a couple of months ago my Mexican women said that a wolf whistle is considered an insult here. They told me not to acknowledge their presence. Huh, what am I to do? Be a cold American or a warm one? Being nice and friendly has gotten me a lot of favors. I was able to register our van crossing the border with my Costco card because I was nice. Your thoughts?



ChoirDJ -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/27/2008 1:37:28 AM)

Never heard the term wolf whistle before but if it's the type of whistle I'm thinking about, it is disrespectful because it's a blatant gesture that you are seen as a sex object and not a person. I agree with your friend in that it is insulting behavior (in the US as well as Mexico) and ignoring it is probably the best way to deal with it.

I went to college in the bay area for 5 years. Loved the surroundings but it was too cold to stay. Besides, all of my family lives in So Cal so I came back after I graduated.



tbrobinson -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/29/2008 10:01:44 PM)

FG,

Kinda depends on what the story is here. I am very familiar with Mexicans having lived here along time, and also having my own experiences with them in biz.

Too me it would be a leadership macho thing. My 2 cents for free:

1. Guys whistle at you, do not acknowledge them. It is not a friendly or Christian thing what they are doing is insulting.

2. This guy has a woman power problem, which is common here. He is trying to keep himself above you, you are the attractive gringa (I say this in Christian spirit and comment), and he worries about losing his place.

You got a tough row to hoe with this guy, when we had the church in Queretaro, we were very clear that men and women were equal and that this type of activity was not acceptable. I also found the further out from the big city we got, the bigger the issue.

Gods Best

Tim



tbrobinson -> RE: Advice for women working with men. (4/30/2008 10:13:57 PM)

FG,

Gracias por haber explicado el tema mejor. First of all I have to confess I am going through a sitution here in Mexico, where I have been cheated, lied to , and it may end in litigation where I have serious legal problems in the US. So my judgement is a little clouded but I have prayed for clarity in answering you.

First of all I pray for you in this situation, you are obviously hurting, you have lost a closed friend.

But in Christian love I have to be blunt.

1. Most (not all) Mexican men if they are asked if the guera is his wife are going to be hugely complimented.
2. I know you speak good spanish. But you have to be very careful of the albur, it can have 2 or 3 meanings, and if you really dont know what the local meanings are.
3. I would be uncomfortable if the guy made a big deal about your hair, clothes, etc. If this is done on a "tu" basis, I am sorry but that is just a little to close. I would never ever say that to a woman here, even someone I know very very well.

For whatever reason, he has chosen to distance himself from you. From DF without knowing more, I just sense that there is an issue there of power, and he is more comfortable with a new Christian that he can "mentor", not real cool with that either.

I know that this hurts you, that you miss the fellowship with him and his wife, but he seems to have taken a different path. I am so sorry that he has hurt you and taken this path.

If you dont mind I will PM you a few other comments that are a little more culture centric than need to be discussed here.

Gods best, and blessings

Tim



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