RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (Full Version)

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blessedinnyc -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/27/2008 9:39:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:

Maybe you should consider consuming less.


THIS IS WHAT TICKS ME OFF: liberal elitists such as yourself telling me what I need to do! My driving is minimal. My food expenses are what is needed to get by. I attempted to reeducate myself after going on disability but SSI said no.

You can always turn the thermostat down a bit in winter and up a bit in summer. I usually do that. Actually, having grown up in freezing Chicago, I'm perfectly fine setting the thermostat to 60 degrees in the winter. This reduces my gas bill by about 20%. If everybody did this, natural gas would be half as expensive as it is now, and everyone could lower their gas bills by 60%.

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LIBERALS such as yourself that believe the government can do no wrong and private industry is evil. Government is your god. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL ME TO CONSUME LESS!!!! YOU SELF_RIGHTEOUS LIBERAL ELITE!

When did I ever say the government could do no wrong- or even call for government intervention to lower gas prices?

I am simply saying that if you can't afford your energy costs, maybe you should reduce your energy usage. People need to stop living beyond their means and then blaming "liberals" for their problems.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/27/2008 9:44:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

The thread is should we put a cap on gas prices.

YES.

Should we consume less. YES . liberals and conservatives. Ahhh....americans should consume less, whole nations get along with almost no fuel, so it's not impossible.

I mean, the fact is that America makes up 5% of the world's population yet consumes about 20% of its resources. If people want to know why Americans spend so much money on energy, they should actually start looking at some of the numbers- instead of blaming liberals- who were completely out of power while oil rose from $14/barrel to $80/barrel.



wing2000 -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/27/2008 9:55:48 PM)

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Anyway, perhaps I should mention that I never said that I expect mass transit to take over ever single aspect of the transportation industry. However, there is certainly nothing wrong with improving mass transit in US cities, nor in encouraging Americans to carpool and, if possible (gasp!) walk or ride a bike.

I have lived and traveled in Europe and I can tell you that many of the countries over there have transit that is ten times more efficient than that found in American cities. Buses, trains, trams. And not only that, but several cities are designed so that walking and biking are perfectly valid ways to transverse the city.

Americans have chosen to design their cities around the automobile, to the extent that in many American cities there is NO practical alternative to driving your own personal vehicle. In some cities, the situation is so bad that there really is no easy way to rectify the damage that has been done after years of horrible planning. We all know how dependent our car culture is on gas, and eventually the increase in gas prices will be unbearable for many Americans that they will start to realize the advantages of providing alternative means of transport.

I say, bring it on!


Yes, bring it on.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/28/2008 3:31:58 PM)

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mean, the fact is that America makes up 5% of the world's population yet consumes about 20% of its resources. If people want to know why Americans spend so much money on energy, they should actually start looking at some of the numbers- instead of blaming liberals- who were completely out of power while oil rose from $14/barrel to $80/barrel.


same liberal mantra, same liberal lies. and who has been blocking drilling in ANWAR? Sure has been conservatives.

Liberals care nothing at all about helping the poor. All they care about is pushing their agenda of bowing at the foot of goverment who can do no wrong.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/28/2008 6:59:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

and who has been blocking drilling in ANWAR? Sure has been conservatives.

ANWR (There's no A in it, BTW) makes up something on the order of tenths of a percent of the world's total oil reserves. It's not a whole lot of oil. I disagree with the environmentalists' assessments that ANWR would reduce gas prices by $0.02, but I do think that the impact would probably be limited to less than 10% of current gas prices. Producing in ANWR isn't that cheap, and oil isn't that supply-inelastic.

quote:

same liberal mantra, same liberal lies.

I've posted plenty of links to back up my numbers. The fact that America is 5% of the world's population yet consumes 20% of its energy is a verifiable fact that you could look up yourself if you don't believe me.

By no means am I saying that liberals are right on energy policy- in fact, they get things wrong almost as much as I think conservatives do. However, it's important to have all the facts when you discuss energy policy.

The fact is that ANWR doesn't have as much oil as Rush Limbaugh claims (it doesn't have as little oil as Greenpeace claims, either.)

The fact is that America consumes more energy than any other nation on earth in both gross energy consumed and per-capita consumption- except maybe Canada and Australia (The fact is that this also isn't necessarily a bad thing, either, but it's important to have some perspective when we discuss energy consumption.).

The fact is that liberals are out to lower energy costs by making the US more efficient- we're not out to raise them. When energy costs are high, this makes our economy much more competitive than other countries. It's also part of the reason we're able to still compete against China while paying workers a decent wage.


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Liberals care nothing at all about helping the poor. All they care about is pushing their agenda of bowing at the foot of goverment who can do no wrong.

Your first comment may be right- I'm a liberal because liberalism is better for our country's economic future than borrow-and-spend neoconservatism, at the very least. (I might even be a traditional conservative if there were still traditional conservative politicians, but all we have left is Ron Paul, and I don't live in Texas.)

Your second comment is dead wrong. Liberals believe that business should bow at the feet of government; conservatives believe that individuals should be controlled by government. Both philosophies are wrong.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/29/2008 9:57:09 PM)

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When energy costs are high, this makes our economy much more competitive than other countries


Balderdassh. When energy costs are high the costs of the corresponding products are high, lessing the competion from the world. Why do you think prices of things such as socks are fairly low and why the NC hosiery plants have shut down? Can't afford the energy to operate them and the salaries needed to pay the workers.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/29/2008 9:58:31 PM)

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The fact is that America consumes more energy than any other nation on earth in both gross energy consumed and per-capita consumption- except maybe Canada and Australia


lies courtesy of Greenpeace



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/29/2008 10:09:39 PM)

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Liberals believe that business should bow at the feet of government; conservatives believe that individuals should be controlled by government.


Wrong on the latter. Goverment should protect the weak and the innocent. Comservatives believe that people are possed with cetain unalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the persuit of happines.

Liberals want radical egalitarianism. Liberals hate life. Even more so if that life is in her mother's womb. Liberals believe that guns are evil and must be banned rather than punishing those who use them to committ crimes. Liberals hate free thought and want to restore the "fairness doctrine."

But liberals do love government. And since Bush has expanded it so much, I wonder why they hate him?

If a man is twenty and isn't a liberal, he has no heart. If that man is still a liberal at forty, he has no brians. Winston Churchill



mcp -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/29/2008 11:26:54 PM)

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quote:

Liberals believe that business should bow at the feet of government; conservatives believe that individuals should be controlled by government.


Wow; by compromising what Libs and Cons believe, we can just get rid of the government.



tracydolls -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/29/2008 11:57:30 PM)

Why is Us comsumes more than any other country a lie?

Look at Africa. No trains or big rigs running food from store to store, you can't even take a train from Kenya to Nigeria or most anywhere for that fact, hardly no cars in big swaths of Africa,

I would argue that US consumes more than alot of countries combined together, just taking an honest look at AFrica.


At this point in the game, with not 9 million but today 14 billion in profits in a quarter, that's what 23 billion? in 6 months? C'mon how can anyone defend that?


Cap them! How much more can we take defending the very bloated, rich, oil companies, I understand profits, the need for jobs, but this is just down right wrong.

we could all turn he heat down, drive less, eat less, the question is can they also do it. they don't need another 23 billion or more in the next 6 months to convince me.



mcp -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 8:30:17 AM)

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At this point in the game, with not 9 million but today 14 billion in profits in a quarter, that's what 23 billion? in 6 months? C'mon how can anyone defend that?


Cap them!


You keep insisting. But if their profits were 1Billion over the last quarter, they would still outrank the GDP of several countries; is that the measuring stick you are using? America consumes more because we have been learning how for the last 120 years. China and India are on the fast path as we speak. By the way, part of the reasons our price is getting close to Europes is that supply for America is being routed overseas, especially with the new UL sulphur diesel formulation. Diesel used to be cheaper than regular. But caps damages the poor's ability to even get fuel; so does that concern you; or do you reject this macroeconomic premise?



mapachito13 -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 9:35:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

and who has been blocking drilling in ANWAR? Sure has been conservatives.

ANWR (There's no A in it, BTW)


Unless you're talking about Mr Sadat. The first arab leader that had the courage to make a peace treaty with Israel.

quote:

quote:

same liberal mantra, same liberal lies.


The fact is that ANWR doesn't have as much oil as Rush Limbaugh claims (it doesn't have as little oil as Greenpeace claims, either.)



Some people parrot the conservative line as much as I have heard people doing that as a liberal. I think there needs to be more critical thinking on both ends of the spectrum. And that is why I am a moderate - the bane of liberals and conservatives alike!



blessedinnyc -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 9:41:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan
lies courtesy of Greenpeace

Actually, you can confirm it in the CIA world factbook if you don't believe me.

quote:

Wrong on the latter. Goverment should protect the weak and the innocent. Comservatives believe that people are possed with cetain unalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the persuit of happines.

Unless they're not US citizens and caught by some bounty hunter in Afghanistan.

Unless they want to protest a sitting president when he makes a public appearance.

In other words, unless they want to dissent. Why does this sound so similar to 1920's and '30s Italy- perhaps just as similar as the farthest of the left wing sounds to certain Bolsheviks.

quote:


Wow; by compromising what Libs and Cons believe, we can just get rid of the government.

I would actually be relatively happy with this. All we really need as a country are:
1.) A large army that never does anything besides make sure we don't get invaded.
2.) A way to enforce other peoples' right (IE: having police).
3.) Various laws that provide minor limits on businesses and the markets (to prevent monopolies, insider trading, and mitigate negative externalities) to correct market failures and enhance long-term market efficiency.



mcp -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 12:33:12 PM)

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I would actually be relatively happy with this. All we really need as a country are:
1.) A large army that never does anything besides make sure we don't get invaded.
2.) A way to enforce other peoples' right (IE: having police).
3.) Various laws that provide minor limits on businesses and the markets (to prevent monopolies, insider trading, and mitigate negative externalities) to correct market failures and enhance long-term market efficiency.


Actually, this is can be interpreted into either side's platform.
To address the points separately-
1) Wars have started from both sides of the aisle. Considering war always has underlying principles, but usually it is the strategic and pragmatic approach that finally gets the ball rolling. As for the 'don't get invaded' clause; that is overly simplistic. It's a good starting principle, but then has to be weighed against other princioples which considered, may supercede. Iraq may have been a mistake in principle, but the precedent of Saddam attacking us was not of issue. We had a ceasefire with Iraq over our protection of Kuwait; he broke the stipulations of that ceasefire. Any failure of Iraq is more of the strategic/pragmatic implications of foreign policy, not the principles you allude to.

2) This is open to interpretation; one of the considerations that gets lost on both sides of the aisle is that Federal restrictions on imposing on our rights is different than state, local, or cultural restrictions.

3) Most parties agree at a high level; the key is that (like in business leadership/governance) that the gov't's oversight does not conflict with their other abilities/activities. It is like the Feds regulating UPS while in competition with them through USPS or the cozy relationship with either the voter interest groups or corporate lobbyists. This conflict of interests from regulating and owning the market is the area of concern for conservatives that understand this point. As far as adjustments to the market up/downswings, this is an open issue with me. It just means that our threshold for economic pain is lower than normal; when the Feds miss something every now and then we get to see what a true market swing feels like. Care also must be taken when we regulate our economy and are in competition with other global economies. These Fed adjustments can have a net detrimental effect not felt till later.



tracydolls -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 1:15:21 PM)

quote:

You keep insisting. But if their profits were 1Billion over the last quarter, they would still outrank the GDP of several countries; is that the measuring stick you are using? America consumes more because we have been learning how for the last 120 years. China and India are on the fast path as we speak. By the way, part of the reasons our price is getting close to Europes is that supply for America is being routed overseas, especially with the new UL sulphur diesel formulation. Diesel used to be cheaper than regular. But caps damages the poor's ability to even get fuel; so does that concern you; or do you reject this macroeconomic premise?



but they were not 1 billion , they were 23 billion! Let's start there. that is a shame, when we consume more than a countries GDP, don't you agree?

It doesnt have anything to do with tea in China, or in this case oil. Other countries can use oil, who is against that. the statement is Americas consumes alot, more that some countries.


I reject your macroeconomics, I took it in college, the poor of africa will never get alot of fuel, they have lived 1000000's of years without, why get in this dog fight now, and how much would we charge them?


I admire these people, they have got the poor, and middle class fighting so hard for them, don;t stop them, that's not greed what you are seeing, don't cap us, it would hurt the poor, a poor we have NEVER cared about,now all of suden they care about their ability to get fuel.



23 billion in 6 months is pure greed.


Cap that!




sheesh,



GroupW -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 1:22:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:

to permanently turn the state of Colorado into a pH-13 wasteland for maybe a decade's worth of oil?


Studies have proven it can be done in an environmentally friendly way

As a coloradan, not entirely. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of it, but there are a host of local issues out on the western slope that have to do with the location of the shale vs the location of the water table that make this a somewhat touchy issue.



mcp -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 4:56:58 PM)

quote:

but they were not 1 billion , they were 23 billion! Let's start there. that is a shame, when we consume more than a countries GDP, don't you agree?

It doesnt have anything to do with tea in China, or in this case oil. Other countries can use oil, who is against that. the statement is Americas consumes alot, more that some countries.


So to use that logic to a level of absurdity, shouldn't we feel ashamed we live in 'clean/dry' houses with electricity, and hot water? Cars to drive to store/cinema/commute? Should we live off wild rabbits and limit ourselves to 2000.00 dollars and live in Yellowstone type land? All so that we are shamed by our lifestyles and act more fairly to the poor in other lands?


quote:


I reject your macroeconomics, I took it in college, the poor of africa will never get alot of fuel, they have lived 1000000's of years without, why get in this dog fight now, and how much would we charge them?


I admire these people, they have got the poor, and middle class fighting so hard for them, don;t stop them, that's not greed what you are seeing, don't cap us, it would hurt the poor, a poor we have NEVER cared about,now all of suden they care about their ability to get fuel.


23 billion in 6 months is pure greed.


I don't even understand your syntax. If this is a macroeconomics argument against my point, then maybe you took sociology. I don't disagree that Africa hasn't capitalized on oil (or at least the proletariat). Also, despite having natural resources, corruption and lifestyle has not allowed them to gain both upstream and downstream revenues of these resources. But I didn't bring up Africa, I am aware of the history of oil, and I know it is a limited resource; but if it wasn't oil it wouldv'e been a fight for something else. You don't understand economics if your argument is all sociological. And greed can be manifest in a pair of tennis shoes. BTW, 23 billion belongs to entities, not individuals; and the last Q news is pretax numbers also.



mcp -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 7:18:19 PM)

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quote:

quote:

Wrong on the latter. Goverment should protect the weak and the innocent. Comservatives believe that people are possed with cetain unalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the persuit of happines.


Unless they're not US citizens and caught by some bounty hunter in Afghanistan.

Unless they want to protest a sitting president when he makes a public appearance.

In other words, unless they want to dissent. Why does this sound so similar to 1920's and '30s Italy- perhaps just as similar as the farthest of the left wing sounds to certain Bolsheviks.


-This doesn't sound like CIA world factbook material... Our government was set up for protection of American citizens. Additional provisions are provided regarding alien rights. Traditional use of a military tribunal, for instance, would have most certainly spelled death for many of these non-uniformed enemy combatants; not that that is the best solution; but that is what you might have seen.

-Yes, Conservatives have been lynching protestors of Bush for peaceful demonstrations[8|]; Bush says practically nothing about those who despise or criticize him (he is probably more hated for his "silent treatment"). But contra-criticism of protestors and dissenters is not allowed? Hoisted by your own petard, I say. The biggest problem with those most visible who criticize Bush, in my opinion, is that they take up the wrong causes.

Italy is such a bad example anyhow. Il Duce was representative of many socialist/statist concepts. The fact that he was anti-Bolshevik was more of a competition than idealogical. That and his country was in dire straits post war.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 7:47:06 PM)

quote:

Look at Africa. No trains or big rigs running food from store to store, you can't even take a train from Kenya to Nigeria or most anywhere for that fact, hardly no cars in big swaths of Africa,


And this is the fault of whom? Doesn't the continent of Africa have enough natural resources to be self-sufficent? Are the natives too dumb to take care of themselves?

Look at the foreign aid the USA has poured into African countries over the years but some reason tin-horn dictators seem to rein supreme



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 7:59:34 PM)

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All so that we are shamed by our lifestyles and act more fairly to the poor in other lands?


As I posted above the amount of foreign aid the US has given to other countries over the years is staggering. Where have all the major medical advances come from over the past 100 years? Where has all the major advances in transportation come from over the past 100 years? Where has all the advances in comunication come from over the past 100 years? Where has all the advances in lifestyle such as washing machines, dryers, refridgerators, heat/cooling over the past 100 years? Where has advances in technology such as computers and the internet over the past 100 years? What about advances in entertainment over the past 100 years? It isn't some poor third world country but

THE USA

We are the most giving country on the planet. When there is trouble anywhere what country is the first to lead the charge to help but

THE USA



tracydolls -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 9:32:31 PM)

quote:

So to use that logic to a level of absurdity, shouldn't we feel ashamed we live in 'clean/dry' houses with electricity, and hot water? Cars to drive to store/cinema/commute? Should we live off wild rabbits and limit ourselves to 2000.00 dollars and live in Yellowstone type land? All so that we are shamed by our lifestyles and act more fairly to the poor in other lands?



using the logic of abursidity with ::
I said the Oil co. made 23 billion in 6 months,
you say should we live off rabbits.


no I'm saying the oil comanies should live off rabbits,



tracydolls -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 9:34:48 PM)

quote:

I don't even understand your syntax. If this is a macroeconomics argument against my point, then maybe you took sociology. I don't disagree that Africa hasn't capitalized on oil (or at least the proletariat). Also, despite having natural resources, corruption and lifestyle has not allowed them to gain both upstream and downstream revenues of these resources. But I didn't bring up Africa, I am aware of the history of oil, and I know it is a limited resource; but if it wasn't oil it wouldv'e been a fight for something else. You don't understand economics if your argument is all sociological. And greed can be manifest in a pair of tennis shoes. BTW, 23 billion belongs to entities, not individuals; and the last Q news is pretax numbers also.



Macroeconomics: America consumes more oil than whole countries in Africa



tracydolls -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 9:37:27 PM)

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And this is the fault of whom? Doesn't the continent of Africa have enough natural resources to be self-sufficent? Are the natives too dumb to take care of themselves?
We are all native to Africa. The natural resources are being stolen by the dumb people is what is hurting them.

quote:

Look at the foreign aid the USA has poured into African countries over the years but some reason tin-horn dictators seem to rein supreme
Look at the tin horn dictators that have stolen all the money FROM AFRICA for over 500 years.



tracydolls -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 9:39:35 PM)

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We are the most giving country on the planet. When there is trouble anywhere what country is the first to lead the charge to help but



the comments does not address the Op

Cap the OIL Companies. Africa had lived 100000's of years without. they'll be ok G-d got them. It's the USA I'm thinking about.



wing2000 -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/30/2008 9:57:53 PM)

No cap.

And I think the Federal government should add a war surcharge to the price of gas...to pay the huge cost of securing the sources of oil and taking care of the soldiers who are doing so.



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