RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (Full Version)

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Ezra -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/20/2008 10:24:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

I doubt whether we could resist God's grace given to us by Him any more then we could resist the Devil without it
Sorry, Eph4_32, but some of us do not consider the flawed doctrine of "irresistible grace" to be "good preachin'"!


drmark:

Thanks for bringing this up. "Irresistible grace" is another major misunderstanding of the grace of God. Many believe it and teach it, but Scripture does not support it in the least.

We must take the nation of Israel as our primary example. God gave several promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph, and He loved Israel and gave Israel a very special place in human history. Yet Israel disobeyed God and resisted His grace at every turn.

We have two significant passages in the NT that reveal to us that God's grace is indeed resistible, and was resisted again and again by His own chosen people:

Matthew 23:37,38 -- O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.

Acts 7:51,52 -- Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, YE DO ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: AS YOUR FATHERS DID, SO DO YE. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers."

Before the ones who hold to "irresistible grace" lightly dismiss these words of Scripture as irrelevant, let us bear in mind that the first passage is a record of the words of Christ Himself, and the second passage was inspired by the Holy Spirit. These are the words of God!

Be careful that you yourself do not resist the Holy Spirit by continuing to claim that grace is "irresistible". If grace were indeed irresistible, every man, woman, and child on this planet would be saved, since that is God's great desire.



PeterD -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/20/2008 11:36:31 PM)

1 Corinthians 15:55-57

55 "O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?"

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? Because of sin and the devil. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

PeterD



Sammy_S -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 12:48:41 AM)

One thing that I learned is that unbelievers knowingly or unknowingly hate grace and they do so because the Grace of God would teach that men are indeed worthless are of absolutely no value until the blood of Christ flows through in him.



rcjames -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 9:55:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Godhead

I doubt whether we could resist God's grace given to us by Him any more then we could resist the Devil without it [:D]


You have been making some good points up until this one Godhead, but I just cannot buy into the Calvanistic view of Salvation.

I just believe that God gave man free will, and we always have a choice here on earth.

Thanks
RC



drmark -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 12:14:55 PM)

quote:

One thing that I learned is that unbelievers knowingly or unknowingly hate grace and they do so because the Grace of God would teach that men are indeed worthless are of absolutely no value until the blood of Christ flows through in him.
Sammy_S, I really do agree with the doctrine of total depravity but I'm concerned that your simplistic statement could be confusing to seekers and even new Believers. One cannot hate something one knows nothing about. The grace of God actually teaches that ALL people are valuable enough that God's own Son died for them. The Blood of Christ provides the means for the Holy Spirit to indwell us.

It is not necessary to misuse the doctrine of total depravity to the point of misrepresenting grace as irresistible if one understands the concepts of prevenient grace and free will as taught throughout Scripture.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 1:14:33 PM)

Jesus Christ of Nazareth was ~full of grace and truth~. We cannot separate grace from His beautiful Character. ~And of His fullness have we all received, and grace for grace~. ~And we beheld His glory. The glory of the only begotten Son of God. Full of grace and truth~ Amen!!!

It is assumed we all know but I think it would be great for the OP'er to ground the thread with a definition of grace for those who may be reading and do not know the definition.

Just a suggestion, Ezra. I know you will probably ignore this[;)]

Any scholar want to give a definition? I would love to see it on this post[:D]



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 1:23:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Godhead

God should be our exceedingly great reward.


One of the best sentences I have ever seen on these forums[:D]

After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Genesis 15:1



drmark -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 1:27:42 PM)

quote:

It is assumed we all know but I think it would be great for the OP'er to ground the thread with a definition of grace for those who may be reading and do not know the definition.
Every good Wesleyan knows the definition of grace:
quote:

The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL.... It is free in all to whom it is given. It does not depend on any power or merit in man; no, not in any degree, neither in whole, nor in part. It does not in anywise depend either on the good works or righteousness of the receiver; not on anything he has done, or anything he is. It does not depend on his endeavors. It does not depend on his good tempers, or good desires, or good purposes and intentions; for all these flow from the free grace of God; they are the streams only, not the fountain. They are the fruits of free grace, and not the root. They are not the cause, but the effects of it.
Is that scholarly enough for you, CbG?



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 1:35:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

It is assumed we all know but I think it would be great for the OP'er to ground the thread with a definition of grace for those who may be reading and do not know the definition.
Every good Wesleyan knows the definition of grace:
quote:

The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL.... It is free in all to whom it is given. It does not depend on any power or merit in man; no, not in any degree, neither in whole, nor in part. It does not in anywise depend either on the good works or righteousness of the receiver; not on anything he has done, or anything he is. It does not depend on his endeavors. It does not depend on his good tempers, or good desires, or good purposes and intentions; for all these flow from the free grace of God; they are the streams only, not the fountain. They are the fruits of free grace, and not the root. They are not the cause, but the effects of it.
Is that scholarly enough for you, CbG?


Ohhh, thank you![:D]

I cannot wait to read that message by Wesley[:)]



Ezra -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 9:10:33 PM)

quote:

I think it would be great for the OP'er to ground the thread with a definition of grace for those who may be reading and do not know the definition.


drmark has already provided an excellent definition of grace, which is rooted and grounded in the love of God.

To further explicate, the Hebrew word for grace is chen [khane] which is graciousness, kindness or favour, and is derived from chanan [khawnan] which means to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior, to favour, to bestow, to be merciful, to have mercy, to have pity upon.

The Greek word for grace is charis, which means graciousness, and pertains to the divine influence upon the heart, and it's reflection in the life. It can mean benefit, favour, gift, liberality, and thanks, or that which is thankworthy.

In essence, the grace of God is His undeserved love, mercy, kindness and favour to His creatures because of His infinite love, and because of the infinitely great and worthy sacrifice of His Son. This grace is then reflected in the child of God's attitude and life.



Ezra -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 9:20:57 PM)

Coming back to the ways in which God's grace is misunderstood, we have already looked at grace being mistaken as a license to sin, and grace being considered as irresistible by sinners, when it is not.

Some of the other ways in which grace is misunderstood are:

1. That grace excludes some sinners from the gift of eternal life.

2. That grace must be earned or merited in order to be saved.

3. That grace does not require daily self-examination and confession of sins.

4. That Law and grace can be freely mixed and mingled without detriment to grace.

5. That grace does not demand complete surrender of life and will to God.

Your input should shed light on these and other misunderstandings, since the grace of God should never be misunderstood.



deliveredarling -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 9:44:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

Coming back to the ways in which God's grace is misunderstood, we have already looked at grace being mistaken as a license to sin, and grace being considered as irresistible by sinners, when it is not.

Some of the other ways in which grace is misunderstood are:

1. That grace excludes some sinners from the gift of eternal life.

2. That grace must be earned or merited in order to be saved.

3. That grace does not require daily self-examination and confession of sins.

4. That Law and grace can be freely mixed and mingled without detriment to grace.

5. That grace does not demand complete surrender of life and will to God.

Your input should shed light on these and other misunderstandings, since the grace of God should never be misunderstood.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/21/2008 9:54:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

To further explicate, the Hebrew word for grace is chen [khane] which is graciousness, kindness or favour, and is derived from chanan [khawnan] which means to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior, to favour, to bestow, to be merciful, to have mercy, to have pity upon.

The Greek word for grace is charis, which means graciousness, and pertains to the divine influence upon the heart, and it's reflection in the life. It can mean benefit, favour, gift, liberality, and thanks, or that which is thankworthy.

In essence, the grace of God is His undeserved love, mercy, kindness and favour to His creatures because of His infinite love, and because of the infinitely great and worthy sacrifice of His Son. This grace is then reflected in the child of God's attitude and life.



Thank you, so much, Ezra...

That makes me cry........



deliveredarling -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 6:36:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

Coming back to the ways in which God's grace is misunderstood, we have already looked at grace being mistaken as a license to sin, and grace being considered as irresistible by sinners, when it is not.

Some of the other ways in which grace is misunderstood are:

1. That grace excludes some sinners from the gift of eternal life.

2. That grace must be earned or merited in order to be saved.

3. That grace does not require daily self-examination and confession of sins.

4. That Law and grace can be freely mixed and mingled without detriment to grace.

5. That grace does not demand complete surrender of life and will to God.

Your input should shed light on these and other misunderstandings, since the grace of God should never be misunderstood.


1) It does if the gift is not accepted, the gift accepted is reflected in one's life.
2) Grace is not earned or merited but evidenced in how we live our lives.
3) I've not heard this before in reference to Grace. I think it is necessary in order for Him to remove the sin that crops up due to our sinful nature, in essence allowing Him to continue purifying our heart.
4) If I am understanding this statement correctly, the law and Grace work cohesively, not contradicting. The law helps us not to sin. The do's and don'ts of a Father telling His children that the stove is hot.
5)The surrendering of one's life is the result of Grace received, the desire to be obedient because of the love He first gave us, because of our love for Him.

Does this mean we will be perfect and never sin, No. It does mean however, that we are so much more aware of our sinfulness and willing to gladly give it up. The HS puts that desire in us. Before Grace experienced, we chose the world, after Grace experienced, we chose Him



abraxas -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 7:23:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy_S

One thing that I learned is that unbelievers knowingly or unknowingly hate grace and they do so because the Grace of God would teach that men are indeed worthless are of absolutely no value until the blood of Christ flows through in him.


"Hate" may not be the best word here, but if that is really what the Grace of God teaches then yeah it's not likely to be received well. Can Christianity attract only misanthropes?



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 7:33:38 AM)

1 Corinthians 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 3
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Titus 3
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 7:52:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
The law helps us not to sin.


When we recognize that by trying to keep the law, we are unable to perfectly keep it and thereby, we see our guilt and need of a Savior. It is actually God Who helps us not to sin in the process called sanctification
(whereby we "increasingly die to sin and live unto righteousness in the whole man").

Romans 3
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

James 2
10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 3
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

It is God's grace that gives us faith. And without faith it is impossible to please Him. When we recognize our complete helplessness and dependence on Him, we are truly aware of His grace!



deliveredarling -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 8:21:00 AM)

I am not saying the law saves us in any way, nor by being obedient to the law. Your reference to Galatians 3:24 is my point. After we have been saved the law points us and guides us to what living a life for Christ is about. If we didn't have the scriptures to learn from and study, how would we then know? We have the examples and guidance of the Bible for a reason. if we completely discount the scriptures than what is the purpose of the Bible. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. That means we have it to use as a study guide. I'm not using the law as a works based faith or "saving grace". Grace does not afford us to discount the law. Scripture is used for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness: that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:17. Bolded is what is evidenced in the life of a saved person.



deliveredarling -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 10:22:15 AM)

An idea was just presented to me that i simply do not understand. Radical Grace being a spiritual concept. How is radical grace any different than "regular" grace? Are they not the same? Was Jesus' death on the cross not radical enough? Has anyone else heard this before and explain?



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 11:56:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

4) The law helps us not to sin.




[sm=sadquestion.gif] Would you care to explain this, please? This sounds like legalism to me. I saw your answer above to Ephesisans but am still curious about your continued emphasis on the law vs. on the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit controlled and directed life....



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 12:01:10 PM)

This morning, while pondering this thread, the Holy Spirit brought these scriptures to my mind...

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 2:11-14


It seems most appropriate to the thread.....

I would like to see this point dicussed more...Please??? 4. That Law and grace can be freely mixed and mingled without detriment to grace.



drmark -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 12:30:26 PM)

quote:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Also an appropriate "prooftext" which negates irresistible grace. If grace has appeared to all, yet all are not saved, then grace must be resisted by some!



rcjames -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 1:30:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Also an appropriate "prooftext" which negates irresistible grace. If grace has appeared to all, yet all are not saved, then grace must be resisted by some!


My dear friend dmark, do you not realize that posting such reasoned and simplistic truths will drive some of those that are of the Calvinist presuasion into an episode of apoplexy.

Thanks
RC



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 1:33:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Also an appropriate "prooftext" which negates irresistible grace. If grace has appeared to all, yet all are not saved, then grace must be resisted by some!


My dear friend dmark, do you not realize that posting such reasoned and simplistic truths will drive some of those that are of the Calvinist presuasion into an episode of apoplexy.

Thanks
RC



shhh...Pastor James, he is a Doctor[8|]



drmark -> RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? (4/22/2008 1:41:25 PM)

Yes, but my skills in treating apoplexy are minimal at best! Thanks for the advice, Brother James.



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