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deliveredarling -> Comment made at church (4/21/2008 6:41:50 AM)

yesterday, someone made this comment at church:

"We don't worship the Bible"

My response back was, No we don't worship the Bible, we worship the Author" and i followed that with "that is dangerous theology".

What do you think about this? I'm now wondering because this person's comment was given a second. I have not ever heard this thought process used in a church before. Are there others out there who agree?

it seems to me that 2Tim 3:16-17 is pretty clear what we are to use scripture for;
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness: that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

After that comment, we went into discussion about "new revelations". It was said that the Holy Spirit gives new revelations. To a point, i agree. We are going to see any new revelations that depart from the written Word, nor are we going to see some new and great insight that contradicts what's already written. I believe any new revelations means that the HS gives us a clearer understanding of what is already written. I think this too, was dangerous theology.

If anyone has any additional insight into these two topics, please comment. I am exploring this. So far, I haven't found a whole lot to back up either of these ideas.



Calea37 -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 7:10:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

yesterday, someone made this comment at church:

"We don't worship the Bible"

My response back was, No we don't worship the Bible, we worship the Author" and i followed that with "that is dangerous theology".

What do you think about this? I'm now wondering because this person's comment was given a second. I have not ever heard this thought process used in a church before. Are there others out there who agree?

it seems to me that 2Tim 3:16-17 is pretty clear what we are to use scripture for;
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness: that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

After that comment, we went into discussion about "new revelations". It was said that the Holy Spirit gives new revelations. To a point, i agree. We are going to see any new revelations that depart from the written Word, nor are we going to see some new and great insight that contradicts what's already written. I believe any new revelations means that the HS gives us a clearer understanding of what is already written. I think this too, was dangerous theology.

If anyone has any additional insight into these two topics, please comment. I am exploring this. So far, I haven't found a whole lot to back up either of these ideas.


That would be my last time at that church! It sounds like they are trying to justify ways to contradict the Bible; a big no-no!

I agree with you in that any revelation from the Holy Spirit will be to help our understanding of the Scripture. It will never contradict the Bible, and if it does, it is not from the Holy Spirit.
God will never contradict Himself and the Bible is His word...our written guide of who He is.



kmangel -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 8:49:07 AM)

We don't worship the Bible. We worship God.

God wont give any new revelations, but He will give us wisdom to understand what He has already revealed.

I would be questioning your church leadership too if I were you.



DaveW -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 9:57:13 AM)

New revelations? To the pre-believer the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and draws him/her to the Lord. That is a new revelation to that person. To someone who is a believer but struggles with believing some areas, the Spirit can bring "new" revelation to quell their doubts. In that sense the HS DOES bring new revelation.

If you are speaking of stuff of an extra-biblical nature, like the specific color patterns on Joseph's coat or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, then forget it. That stuff is best left on the garbage heap.



URForgiven -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 10:05:29 AM)

I understand the original comment, "We do not worship the Bible." It is an important reminder that many here on these forums need. We do not study the Word of God to ascertain facts and rebuttals, we study to know our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The more we know Him, the less questions we have.

As for "new revelations", there are none, plain and simple. God did not leave us to wonder nor doubt what His revelation and truth are. We are not dependent upon myths and traditions.

The Word of God is the written revelation of God, and there is nothing to add to it nor anything to take away from it. It is our rock upon which to destroy every "new revelation" that comes along.



Liveloved -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 10:46:03 AM)

I am in agreement with URForgiven---we do not worship the Bible. That is not a dangerous thought. It is a NEEDFUL thought. We worship Our Lord and Savior Jesus.

And as to 'new revelation', I do not know what the author of that statement meant. And my advice to you would be to go to the source---ask the person who made the comment what THEY meant. We can get ourselves all worked up and disturbed and upset with someone when we 'assume' what they meant rather than going to them and finding out.

I would take you to Joshua 22, my favorite passage on 'finding out'. God repeatedly tells us in the OT to "investigate thoroughly" when dealing with relational problems, what others are doing and why. In Joshua 22 we see leaders leading in FINDING OUT. They went to the men who had erected the altar that they thought was offensive. And by going, talking with their brothers, and finding out what they were doing, what their thoughts were and why they were motivated to do it, they came to total agreement and saw things their way and loved these men! Instead of war, peace and brotherly love resulted. Amen.

If we would only learn from the examples God gives us in His word. Oh, delivered, I'm not preaching to you. I'm just sharing a message that is so needful to the church today.

So go to your brother or sister who made the comment and find out what they meant. It may save you from misunderstanding. Bless ya dear![:)]



Kat_D -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 10:59:08 AM)

quote:

"We don't worship the Bible"


What church do you go to? This is a sentiment that has snaked its way into a lot of churches and new movements these days. Many do not believe God's Word to be the ultimate Truth and authority for the Christian's life...they think God has a bigger story than His Word. They often accuse those of us who do view God's Word this way of worshiping the Bible not the Lord. Thus, whenever you give Scripture to back up a thought or viewpoint it is just negated because you have not been enlightened to the bigger truth.[:'(]

No absolutes...very, very dangerous!!



deliveredarling -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 11:21:38 AM)

i totally agree with you Kat. This was my first alarm in having heard this. Based on the context of the conversation being had, it was an implied dismissal and disregard of scripture. So, I was wondering just how many believers out there really believe this. Has this particular message deceived many of the proclaimed believers?

URforgiven, we do study the word for facts and rebuttals. Anything else would come from our own beliefs, our own "facts and opinions", not those that are given from God. His Word teaches us Who He is, not who we want Him to be.

LL, while your advice is well intended, the context was very clear to me, if it wasn't alarm bells would not having been ringing in me loudly[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]. if I believed it was just misspoken, I would question him personally. However, there were new believers present and it needed to be cleared up right then and there. Very important, as this came from a spiritual leader in our church.

BTW, Kat, I have written my pastor an e-mail questioning why he has allowed this to continue. I'm getting the feeling, I attend a "tickle the ears " church. i just want to be sure I am not misinterpreting what is being said and giving the benefit of the doubt.



sparkleingsnow -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 11:35:02 AM)

Worship the Bible? Never heard of it. But no, I don't worship the Bible. Love it yes, but not worship it. I worship the Lord God Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ. The scripture you posted is the same as I would use for the proper use of God's word.

New revelation? I agree with Liveloved about talking with this person so that there is no misunerstanding. If you find they do mean somthing that is not in alinement with God's word, I would relay on this scripture:

quote:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.



SD456 -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 11:42:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

"We don't worship the Bible"


What church do you go to? This is a sentiment that has snaked its way into a lot of churches and new movements these days. Many do not believe God's Word to be the ultimate Truth and authority for the Christian's life...they think God has a bigger story than His Word. They often accuse those of us who do view God's Word this way of worshiping the Bible not the Lord. Thus, whenever you give Scripture to back up a thought or viewpoint it is just negated because you have not been enlightened to the bigger truth.[:'(]

No absolutes...very, very dangerous!!


Every person I've encountered in these threads thus far believe that God's word is the ultimate authority. They just disagree on secondary issues. No story could ever be more important than Jesus coming to earth, emptying Himself out to save a lost creation.

God never intended to explain through His word all the little secondary issues because it tests the hearts of men and exposes their pride. Will we love each other and stay in unity or will we divide in pride over secondary issues? We tend to divide in pride.

We are always being given NEW revelation in that we are always growing and deepening in our knowledge and understanding of God and so to each of us that is a new revelation to our finite minds, but it is not a new revelation that adds or detracts from the truth of who God is as revealed in scripture. That would be error in doctrine.



real58 -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 11:58:33 AM)

Is this the belief of your church leaders or just one persons view. If this reflects the view of your pastor and leaders then I'd be out of there, however if it is just one persons view then they need to be educated and leaving a church over one persons opinion is over kill.



deliveredarling -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 1:59:18 PM)

At this point, it is the view of two people. I'm not sure if the pastor feels this way or not, that's why I wrote the email, in order to clarify his position.



Liveloved -> RE: Comment made at church (4/21/2008 10:58:04 PM)

Delivered,
Do let us know what response you receive from your pastor. And I'd still encourage you to continue the dialogue with the one who made the comments---not in an adversarial way but just to really understand one another. I have seen too many misunderstandings continue that a little effort could have resolved---the pursuit of this kind of peace with others is so important in the life of the church. Anyway, do let us know what you learn.[:)]LL



small_creation -> RE: Comment made at church (4/22/2008 9:11:49 PM)

How about the United States flag -- don't you pledge allegience to it, as the mantra goes? But we know we're not really pledging to the red and white stripes or the blue stars sewn onto simple fabric. We are pledging our allegience to what it stands for.

Same with the bible. We are worshiping God through the Bible. We are putting our faith, trust, love and submitting to his ultimate authority through the truth of the words in the Bible.

Now, I hate to see a flag unlit at night or tattered from the breeze. And I question the patriorism of a person who lets such a thing exist on their property. Same with the Bible. I would really question the belief processes of someone who said, "We don't worship the Bible."

But all in all, it's a fine line, and not a hill I would die on (no pun intended).

j



colliefan -> RE: Comment made at church (4/22/2008 9:57:26 PM)

One can worship a particular version of the Bible. Or, one can worship the study itself. However, one must see the Bible is the sole guide to life and that it cannot be understood w/o its guidance. Said another way, does one aproach the bible for information or for transformation.



earthless -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 8:45:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

"We don't worship the Bible"


What church do you go to? This is a sentiment that has snaked its way into a lot of churches and new movements these days. Many do not believe God's Word to be the ultimate Truth and authority for the Christian's life...they think God has a bigger story than His Word. They often accuse those of us who do view God's Word this way of worshiping the Bible not the Lord. Thus, whenever you give Scripture to back up a thought or viewpoint it is just negated because you have not been enlightened to the bigger truth.[:'(]

No absolutes...very, very dangerous!!


You hit the nail on its head...

It is something readily seen in the Latter Rain/Word of Faith/Hyper Charismatic circles today. We have seen it defended and preached in the threads we have running on those topics.

People who say the Bible is not complete and does not contain all of God's desired Word for mankind.



SD456 -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 11:20:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliver
My response back was, No we don't worship the Bible, we worship the Author"


It seems then that you are in full agreement with the comment made to you - we don't worship the bible, we worship God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliver

I believe any new revelations means that the HS gives us a clearer understanding of what is already written.


Absolutely true. It seems again you are in complete agreement with the person who made the comment. I don't see what problem you have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliver
Based on the context of the conversation being had, it was an implied dismissal and disregard of scripture


Since, in your own words, you agree with the commentor, then did you have a deeper conversation with them to discover that they truly dismiss the bible and truly disregard it? Otherwise that seems like a pretty serious accusation to make to a lover of Jesus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliver
His Word teaches us Who He is, not who we want Him to be.


I agree completely. I bet you anything the person you conversed with does also. His word was given to us so that we could learn who He is, His nature and His character and heart. We are definately to use it that way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
People who say the Bible is not complete


I've not met anyone on these threads who do not believe the bible is the infallible word of God and is complete in that it says all that God intended it to say and it is good for teaching, exhortation, etc. The Holy Spirit is our teacher and guide and uses the bible to teach us, definately.

But can you show me scripture that says the bible is all-encompassing of ALL knowledge and ALL of the things that Jesus ever said or did? I can't find that scripture. But I would like to learn if I've missed it somewhere and find out where the bible claims that.

I do remember a verse that says the world could not contain all the books that could be written about ALL that Jesus said or did, so that teaches me that Jesus has done lots and lots that isn't written in scripture and still does do that.



earthless -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 11:22:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

But can you show me scripture that says the bible is all-encompassing of ALL knowledge and ALL of the things that Jesus ever said or did? I can't find that scripture. But I would like to learn if I've missed it somewhere and find out where the bible claims that.

I do remember a verse that says the world could not contain all the books that could be written about ALL that Jesus said or did, so that teaches me that Jesus has done lots and lots that isn't written in scripture and still does do that.


Before we go any further, can you please elaborate on just what exactly the above means for us all as believers? What does that open the door for or what does it allow for us in our Christian walk?

Sincerely asking.



SD456 -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 11:32:37 AM)

It means exactly what it says.

Earthless, it is obvious that you believe that we are not allowed to speak or do anything that is not written explicitly in the bible exactly the way that we would speak or do it. But where in scripture do you find that idea? I just don't see it anywhere.

I believe the bible was given to us to teach us about God's character and nature and introduce us to Jesus. The HS uses the bible to teach us to follow Jesus in a way that pleases God and is in line with His nature and heart.

I believe differently than you do. But that doesn't make us enemies. I don't believe the bible was given to constrain us and give us lots of laws to follow. I believe the bible was given to us to show us the huge, boundless God we serve and allow us to walk in Liberty being directed by the Holy Spirit as we are transformed into the image of Christ and filled with all the fullness of God.



SD456 -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 11:38:24 AM)

It's like someone on these threads who believes that God only will quote bible verses to them when He speaks. That idea isn't anywhere in scripture. In fact the opposite. When God spoke to His people in scripture, 85% of the time He was not quoting a previous written statement that He made, He was speaking a word needed at the moment.

I believe that idea comes from fear. Too many christians do not trust that they can really recognize and know Jesus' voice, even though scripture teaches us that 'His sheep know His voice and will not listen to a stranger."



earthless -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 11:47:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

It means exactly what it says.


With so many people going around today saying we need and can receive RHEMA (revelation knowledge)... your statement is not clear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

Earthless, it is obvious that you believe that we are not allowed to speak or do anything that is not written explicitly in the bible exactly the way that we would speak or do it. But where in scripture do you find that idea? I just don't see it anywhere.


No, not quite. The Bible is the litmus (do you know what that is?) test for all things regarding God, Jesus, the Gospel, how to be saved, how to live our life, how to be good stewards of what He allows us to manage, how to know Him and praise Him, how to conduct ourselves, how to have a local congregation, rules for elders (pastors, etc), what the gifts of the Holy Spirit are, how to mature in the Word, how to be of sound mind, etc..

Like I noted above - the problem comes when certain individuals take on positions and authority not meant for them and or that outright contradict what is already contained in Scripture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

I believe the bible was given to us to teach us about God's character and nature and introduce us to Jesus. The HS uses the bible to teach us to follow Jesus in a way that pleases God and is in line with His nature and heart.

I believe differently than you do. But that doesn't make us enemies. I don't believe the bible was given to constrain us and give us lots of laws to follow. I believe the bible was given to us to show us the huge, boundless God we serve and allow us to walk in Liberty being directed by the Holy Spirit as we are transformed into the image of Christ and filled with all the fullness of God.


Nice, but it's still not clear what, if any, boundaries you have for what you accept as truth, as from God.



deliveredarling -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 12:26:23 PM)

SD, I don't know how you get that I agreed with the comments, If you put my sentences in the correct context .......[8|]
Dangerous Theology just doesn't seem like an agreement[&:]



SD456 -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 12:36:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

I believe the bible was given to us to teach us about God's character and nature and introduce us to Jesus. The HS uses the bible to teach us to follow Jesus in a way that pleases God and is in line with His nature and heart.

I believe differently than you do. But that doesn't make us enemies. I don't believe the bible was given to constrain us and give us lots of laws to follow. I believe the bible was given to us to show us the huge, boundless God we serve and allow us to walk in Liberty being directed by the Holy Spirit as we are transformed into the image of Christ and filled with all the fullness of God.


Nice, but it's still not clear what, if any, boundaries you have for what you accept as truth, as from God.


Well, that one you'll just have to figure out if you don't understand my statements. I don't think I'm speaking Greek. What you have a problem with is I come to different conclusions than you about people out there in the church and you don't like that. Sorry, can't help you there.



SD456 -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 12:39:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

SD, I don't know how you get that I agreed with the comments, If you put my sentences in the correct context .......[8|]
Dangerous Theology just doesn't seem like an agreement[&:]


You didn't give much insight into exactly what the commentor said, so thus far what they said you repeated almost verbatim. They don't believe we worship the bible and you said you don't believe we worship the bible.

You believe that NEW revelation gives us deeper understanding of truths in scripture, and if you ask that person I bet you they would believe the same. I just don't see the scary false teaching in those things. Especially when you agree with them.

Please share the exact words they used and if they confessed to having a disregard for the holy scriptures. Did that actually come out of their mouths?



Liveloved -> RE: Comment made at church (4/23/2008 2:18:04 PM)

quote:

I believe that idea comes from fear. Too many christians do not trust that they can really recognize and know Jesus' voice, even though scripture teaches us that 'His sheep know His voice and will not listen to a stranger."


Thank you for saying this, SD. This is so true. And part of the 'paralysis' has come about through our dependence on Bible teachers, pastors and study helps such as are in study Bibles. When I was in Bible Study Fellowship many years ago, one of the absolute best things they taught me was to GET RID OF YOUR STUDY BIBLE and let the Holy Spirit lead and guide you into all truth---don't be led by another man's thought. I went out and bought an NASB reference Bible and have never turned back. Oh, certainly, I do check out commentaries (on occasion but rarely) and I do listen to the teaching of others, but my main source of God is from Himself---firsthand learning.

Jesus said, "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life." John 5:39-40

Jesus makes it clear that these men were missing something even though they were very knowledgable of scripture. They knew the word but not The Word. He is a faithful, patient Teacher and reveals Himself to those who wait on Him.



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