Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (Full Version)

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ta_mosquito -> Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 10:55:31 AM)

Bear with me as I try to get my thoughts down. [&:]

I have competing thoughts in my brain concerning our church situation, and one is preeminent because it's more selfish (I think)... but I'd like to hear your take on it.

First, at the morning service, the substitute pastor said that we need to crave spiritual milk and gave an example of a lady who switched churches because she simply wasn't getting fed at her old church. He commended her for realizing this and for seeking to be fed.

Second, at the evening service, the regular pastor talked about joy and how it's not due to external circumstances, and if we're murmuring or complaining, then we're stifling God's joy in our lives. Our focus shouldn't be selfish - to meet our needs - but should be on honoring and serving God.

So how does one reconcile these two ideas, both of which are biblical?

If I'm not getting fed at my church... if I have to fight bad attitudes 80-90% of the time... BUT if I realize that a lot of the problem is my own personal preferences, and if I knuckled down and worked on serving others, I'd be serving God where I am...

I was arguing with the pastor during most of last night's sermon. [8|]

So, does anyone have any wisdom to offer?

Of course, this is all an academic exercise since hubby has already said he'd be very uncomfortable abandoning our struggling church. Attendance is shrinking; the congregation is aging. Many people are frustrated.




sparkleingsnow -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 12:36:29 PM)

I don't claim any special wisdom or knowledge, but here is what I think.

First, I don't see a conflict between the two. To desire spiritual milk, to desire to grow in your faith and wisdom isn't a "I" thing. It is a desire given us by the Lord and it is His will that we seek Him, seek to grow in Him. It's to His glory for us to grow in Him and reflect Him, not our own. So if your not being fed at your church I don't see anything wrong or selfish with changing churches to one that can help you grow.

Second, I think your pastors message was right on about our joy doesn't depend on external circumstances, it comes from a close relationship with the Lord. And from obeying Him in loving one another and being forgiving. (Not doing these things can block us from feeling His joy.)

And God's word tells us that we are to do all things as unto the Lord. It also tells us to put others before ourselfs. God knows our hearts. And He cares more about how we feel in our heart, than He does about what we do. What glory does it bring to the Lord if we are mummbling and grumbling as we do something? I don't think He honors that as our attitude isn't right.

Whether to change churches would depend on a lot of things. First, seeking God's will in prayer. Do you feel that you are being of use to the Lord at that church? Are you able to feed yourself even though you don't feel that you are being fed at the church? Is your faith growing weaker?

I don't see a conflict, and I don't see a right or wrong. I think it boils down to where you are in your walk with the Lord, and what you believe He wants you to do.




deliveredarling -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 2:07:54 PM)

Let me ask you this, is staying there going to stagnate your walk with the Lord and cause you to end up mumbling and grumbling like the other 80-90% of the people? Why is the congregation dwindling? Change is uncomfortable. You mentioned personal preferences. Could it be that this discomfort you are feeling is because God is causing you to get out of your comfort zone and in doing so will be feeding you, if you stop fighting? Just a thought[:D]




frankman -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 4:29:57 PM)

The job of the Church is to teach you how to feed yourself on spiritual food. The Church will start out by spoon feeding you milk, but as you grow and mature, you should learn not to be a baby Christian anymore, but a mature Christian who has learned to digest it`s food independently without being spoon fed every day by your Pastor. Once you`ve grown to this point of maturity you will find joy in teaching others what you have learned. Also once your rooted in the Word external circumstances will not shake you. You have matured to a point in your faith that your hope doesn`t depend on things around you, but on God and His Word alone as Heb.6:19 affirms "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure." We will then have true joy not dependent on our circumstance, for we know God is in control, and no matter how bad it gets we know God will never desert us.

As for the lady who switched Churches, there are Churches around who are not feeding their newborns spiritual milk at all. In fact some Churches may even be feeding them poison. For these newborns to grow at all, they may need to switch. However once your mature, your in a position to ask what can I do for my Church to feed it, instead of how can the Church feed me. If God doesn`t have a work for you to do where your at, then yes, God may have another workfield out there somewhere for you to feed His flock.




Walker311 -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 5:47:22 PM)

quote:

Our focus shouldn't be selfish - to meet our needs - but should be on honoring and serving God.


Most of us humans have a built-in fight or flight feature and running always seems to be the best option but may not be the wisest.

I have been in the same situation as you a couple of times and I always felt God telling me to wait. I'm glad I did because I had the opportunity to see God do a work. In fact, I got to see many of those who left, filter back to the church but they missed out seeing God fix what was broken.

If the leadership in this church is not following God's will, then my statements do not apply.




makarizo -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 6:18:30 PM)

Heb 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

I think the substitute pastor was talking about a lady who was ready for more than just milk that is mentioned in 1Pet 1:22. (my conjecture)

I looked a long time to find the church that I now go to, and the only criterion was that I wanted to go to a church where i could freely share my faith.... because I can, everything else joyfully falls into place.

my focus was not a selfish one... even tho it was suggested by some that I was abandoning a church that was using my talents..... I was running a race in such a way that i would win (1Cor 9:24)

I look where I was .... a teacher for 16 years.... worship leader, on church council, worship leader, youth sponsor, -even tho I can't play the piano to save my life, I played the offertory countless times, sang in choir every chance I could, and much more...... I wasn't getting the opportunity to freely share my faith like I soooo desperately needed to.




SonInMe1 -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 9:17:33 PM)

No church is perfect. In searching for the perfect church you are gonna pass up some pretty good ones.

I guess it boils down to, why would someone leave a church?

If your church is only dispencing milk and that is not where you are at, talk to the pastor, get his opinion on it and if neccesary start a small group for more seasoned christians.

Running isn't always the answer. Maybe what you are being led to do isn't leaving...its helping out.

I go to a wonderful church....I don't agree with every doctrine. It doesn;t matter because the bible is preached, the issues of disagreement are small and there is definite fruit from the church...and growth in me.




ta_mosquito -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 9:32:34 PM)

In my case, it's less that they're teaching poorly. They're solid in the Word.

However...

I don't agree with the liturgy. Meaning, the service is WAY more structured than I like. There's hardly any deviation in how things are done, both in the order of service and in the things done IN the service. For example, every Sunday there is a "prayer of confession" in which we read together what's printed in the bulletin. The words are usually pretty good, except sometimes I'm mouthing things that either don't apply or I don't mean. We recite the Lord's Prayer every Sunday; I've gotten to the point where if I decide that by reciting it I'm just doing "vain repetition" I'll not recite it. Communion (which is something like 6 times a year) is always done the same way. There are a half dozen or so possible readings - including prayers - the pastor chooses from, but it is never done without the proper readings/prayers. It's all so... FORMAL. While I do understand that the old prayers and creeds and recitations are full of good stuff, it's just so... scripted.

And I do confess that, being a person who worships well/best with music, the music in our church is SORELY lacking. Once a month or at most every other month the praise team sings, and often there are a couple songs that aren't in the hymnal, but other than that, it's the organ and hymns. I have no complaint against hymns in general - they, like the old prayers and creeds and recitations, are full of good stuff. But I just do not ENGAGE with them. I feel like I'm singing out of obligation, not out of praise or love.

These things are definitely not hills to die on (or leave a church over), but a continuous drip erodes rock. It doesn't take long for a tiny pebble in one's shoe to drive one bonkers. And, after 2.5 years or so in this church, I feel like I'm nearing the "bonkers" stage. [&:] Is it selfish of me? Yes, of course. But at what point does one's personal needs win out over the "it ain't all about you" principle?

(A little background: before marriage I came from what I would call a "bapti-costal" church, with lots of spirit but also good meat. When I married, I moved from home and joined my husband's church, the church he grew up in. That's the church we're in now, and the church I'm trying to adjust to enough that I don't have negative attitude almost every time we go.) [8|]




Walker311 -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/21/2008 10:04:39 PM)

quote:

"bapti-costal"


I can relate and this is the kind of church I am in now. The church you are describing here would drive me nuts. No disrespect intended but I believe most people who have not been raised in the formality and repetitiveness could stomach such a church. I've had a taste of this at my mother-in-law's church. I tried to be nice and go a few times in the past and then one year I said never again.




SonInMe1 -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/22/2008 7:59:28 AM)

Liturgy...not really for me tho...

My pastor has scripture in his sermons which appear on two large screens and often he has a word or two in red that we would read aloud.

Communion...I think we do this about 4 times a year, many times we do communion differently. The best, I think was when the pastor went through a long list of sins, then had us write on a piece or paper our sins, walk to the front where there was a large wooden cross and we nailed our sins literally to the cross....very powerful. Then we took communion.

Innovative....no question we do service different a lot. From being rained on, in church, to tiger cubs, to live elephants, duct tape, some interesting acting ( Easter, the pastor made some comment that he would not even mention the Easter Bunny...and you heard some grumbling and there was the Easter Bunny { Singles Pastor in a Bunny Suit } walking out. ) to just plain old good preaching.

It is one of those evil big churches but I figure its the Field of Dreams evangilism...Preach It and They Will Come.

So, there are "good" churches out there.

Now the tough question...does God want you to find one...or to stay?




ta_mosquito -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/22/2008 8:08:22 AM)

quote:

Now the tough question...does God want you to find one...or to stay?

At this point, hubby wants to stay, as I said in my OP. So I'm taking that (kicking and screaming inside) as my cue that I'm supposed to stay, too. If God wants us to move, He's going to have to knock my hubby over the head with a 2x4 to get him to move. [;)]

So as I said in my OP, this is more an academic exercise.




Liveloved -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/22/2008 9:10:54 AM)

Tricia,
I know the struggle. And as you said, it is the 'attitude' we are dealing with.[:)] I have found that church is the one of the primary places of crucifixion of our lives. It is that place where Jesus asks us to take up our cross and deny ourselves and follow Him. It sounds as if that is the path He has you on.

So I would just encourage you to see it as His working out His image in you. He wants you to die to all those 'self' desires that you've already pointed out and know are at work. And instead, He wants you to seek Him in the midst of it all.

For example, in the liturgy, where is Jesus? What is it reminding you of about Him? How can speaking it be a love offering to Him?

I used Evelyn Underhill's writing on the Lord's Prayer, Abba, to encourage myself and change my attitude toward the recitation of this prayer. I, too, struggled with this. But now I very much enjoy it and have learned to really pray it as we recite it.

Music seems to be a continual struggle within the church as well. I am one who loves the hymns as there is such deep meaningful theology within them. But I also enjoy good meaningful contemporary songs as well. Look for Jesus within the music as well. The hymns are rich treasures of truth. And I know you know this. But look for Him and He will be found. Ask, how does this honor You, Lord? Help me see and participate in honoring You, Lord.

Anyway, I identify with you and just want to encourage you. Many of us have walked the way you are going---and for me, I learned it was a chance to die to my desires. Bless you, Tricia, as you walk His road![:)]




armydude -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/22/2008 9:28:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

Bear with me as I try to get my thoughts down. [&:]

I have competing thoughts in my brain concerning our church situation, and one is preeminent because it's more selfish (I think)... but I'd like to hear your take on it.

First, at the morning service, the substitute pastor said that we need to crave spiritual milk and gave an example of a lady who switched churches because she simply wasn't getting fed at her old church. He commended her for realizing this and for seeking to be fed.

Second, at the evening service, the regular pastor talked about joy and how it's not due to external circumstances, and if we're murmuring or complaining, then we're stifling God's joy in our lives. Our focus shouldn't be selfish - to meet our needs - but should be on honoring and serving God.

So how does one reconcile these two ideas, both of which are biblical?
To recognize that you're not being fed (i.e. growing) spiritually is a different thing than saying, "I'm just not happy here!"
I've quit my church several times. Fortunately, nobody but me ever heard that I was quitting.
If you're not getting fed, which means you're not growing spiritually something needs to change. If you then change churches, looking for a place that you can grow (preferrably looking by prayer), then you are doing the right thing by not bogging down church or yourself by being where you're not supposed to be.
If you get mad at the pastor (elders, deacons, etc.) and just want to leave, that's selfishness. So both ideas are biblical. The difference is the focus. The first example is someone focused on God and wanting to grow. The second example is someone focused on self.


ETA: As far as your personal situation, I will be taking it to our loving Heavenly Father. He knows what's best.




stampinlady -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/22/2008 9:29:09 AM)

quote:

When I married, I moved from home and joined my husband's church, the church he grew up in. That's the church we're in now, and the church I'm trying to adjust to enough that I don't have negative attitude almost every time we go.)


Pray that your hubby changes his mnid.[;)]

Share your feelings with dh and be patient.




frankman -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/22/2008 3:49:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

quote:

Now the tough question...does God want you to find one...or to stay?

At this point, hubby wants to stay, as I said in my OP. So I'm taking that (kicking and screaming inside) as my cue that I'm supposed to stay, too. If God wants us to move, He's going to have to knock my hubby over the head with a 2x4 to get him to move. [;)]

So as I said in my OP, this is more an academic exercise.


Whatever you do make sure you and your hubby remain on the same page. Your marriage is sacred and not worth risking over this issue. If God wants you to switch Churches, God will also give your hubby the same desire. You won`t even need a 2 by 4. If God doesn`t want you to change Churches, God will in time give you a love for your present Church equal to your hubbies love for the Church. As far as the style of worship is concerned, styles change as Pastors and our leadership changes. Also remember sometimes this is a slow process because in every Church there are those who detest change of any kind as much as we get tired of litany.




ta_mosquito -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/22/2008 5:07:22 PM)

Thanks, Frankman. And no, I wasn't gonna use the 2x4. If God wants us to move, HE is gonna have to use the proverbial 2x4. [8D]




crh737 -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/23/2008 10:53:54 AM)

Tricia~
The one thing that threw me is the "milk!" According to the bible it is Babes in Christ that need the milk to be fed, but growing Christians need "meat."
Anyhow I will be facing this soon, but what I do is I do bible studies at home and will be considering doing a bible study at home.

Maybe you can get a few of the women or friends to come over for lunch or afternoon coffee and have a bible study. This way when Sunday comes you may not feel so stagnant.

I generally play my favorite cds when I clean.

Hope this helps you until the Lord leads your husband elsewhere
CRH




missleyna -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/23/2008 2:59:42 PM)

Hi-
I've read a couple of books that talk about creating a church within a church. I'm not sure how much time and energy you have- but perhaps this is something you can look into doing? Or by talking to the pastor about having different style worship services once a month or one day of the week in the evening- something that's a bit more to the "contemporary" worship style. Maybe there are more people in the congregation who feel the same way you do too and you could open it up to people outside of the church? It might be a way to combine your husband's love for his church that he grew up in and your need for a different way to commune with God? Then maybe you guys can go to both types of services?

Also, in my bible study one of the girls pointed out that often we spend more time preparing ourselves to go to church physically- with what clothes we will wear, are the kids ready, etc and very little to no time praying to God asking Him to prepare our hearts for worship. Perhaps this could help? Maybe set some time aside to listen to a worship CD and sing and do your own private worship and prayer with God and then go to church and see what He wants to feed you there?

Just some ideas...


quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

In my case, it's less that they're teaching poorly. They're solid in the Word.

However...

I don't agree with the liturgy. Meaning, the service is WAY more structured than I like. There's hardly any deviation in how things are done, both in the order of service and in the things done IN the service. For example, every Sunday there is a "prayer of confession" in which we read together what's printed in the bulletin. The words are usually pretty good, except sometimes I'm mouthing things that either don't apply or I don't mean. We recite the Lord's Prayer every Sunday; I've gotten to the point where if I decide that by reciting it I'm just doing "vain repetition" I'll not recite it. Communion (which is something like 6 times a year) is always done the same way. There are a half dozen or so possible readings - including prayers - the pastor chooses from, but it is never done without the proper readings/prayers. It's all so... FORMAL. While I do understand that the old prayers and creeds and recitations are full of good stuff, it's just so... scripted.

And I do confess that, being a person who worships well/best with music, the music in our church is SORELY lacking. Once a month or at most every other month the praise team sings, and often there are a couple songs that aren't in the hymnal, but other than that, it's the organ and hymns. I have no complaint against hymns in general - they, like the old prayers and creeds and recitations, are full of good stuff. But I just do not ENGAGE with them. I feel like I'm singing out of obligation, not out of praise or love.

These things are definitely not hills to die on (or leave a church over), but a continuous drip erodes rock. It doesn't take long for a tiny pebble in one's shoe to drive one bonkers. And, after 2.5 years or so in this church, I feel like I'm nearing the "bonkers" stage. [&:] Is it selfish of me? Yes, of course. But at what point does one's personal needs win out over the "it ain't all about you" principle?

(A little background: before marriage I came from what I would call a "bapti-costal" church, with lots of spirit but also good meat. When I married, I moved from home and joined my husband's church, the church he grew up in. That's the church we're in now, and the church I'm trying to adjust to enough that I don't have negative attitude almost every time we go.) [8|]




bluestone -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/25/2008 2:18:58 PM)

I was in a similar position at the OP. I had to make a very hard choice. Stick with a dying church that refused to change, or break away.

Loyalty to an institution means nothing if your soul dies in the process. I found myself becoming bored, frustrated, and easily distracted.

I left, and it has been wonderful.

You can view it as rats leaving the sinking ship if you want, but I see it as graduating from kindergarten and moving on up a few grades.

I had no choice, really. It was swim or drown in the spiritual sense.




SonInMe1 -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/25/2008 9:13:36 PM)

I wouldn't say this church is dieing or a dead church. You can have great fruits from a church that...gasps....does liturgies and hymns.




ta_mosquito -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/25/2008 9:30:38 PM)

Well, the leadership is concerned about it dying - numbers are dwindling.

I think a lot of folks are looking back to the heyday of the church, when it was standing room only at times. Now they see it only about half full (if that) on a Sunday morning and only about 15-20 people there on a Sunday night.

Thing is, many in leadership acknowledge that change needs to occur for the church to grow, but they personally don't see a problem with how things are now. The mentality is, "something needs to change, but we like it the way it is."




bluestone -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/26/2008 12:46:47 AM)

That is when I would have to say adieu and hit the road . Knowing there are problems but not trying to change has to be exasperating.




SonInMe1 -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/26/2008 7:56:22 AM)

When you serve others, you have self fulfillment. We are soo blessed to serve others...its almost selfish to do so.




armydude -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/26/2008 7:59:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

When you serve others, you have self fulfillment. We are soo blessed to serve others...its almost selfish to do so.
I like that! Can I use it?




SonInMe1 -> RE: Self Fulfillment vs. Serving Others (4/26/2008 10:51:20 AM)

Well, I'll waive the copyright this time.




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