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[Poll]
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Could Jesus have sinned?
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| Jesus was God so he was infallible |
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| Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible |
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| I have no idea. |
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Total Votes : 56
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(last vote on : 10/2/2008 9:16:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/20/2008 5:49:59 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
What aspects of divinity did Christ possess during His time on earth in your view? Well, it seems to me that in order to be consistent I should affirm all qualities of divinity or none of them. It's a tough question, so I'm glad you answered first!
Here's my best response. I believe that the Incarnate Christ remained fully divine in His nature yet freely emptied Himself of all priveleges, claims, and status associated with His divinity. In this way He was, according to the Athanasian Creed, "equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood." Perhaps this belief allows for my view of Christ's peccability, but I do not base my salvation on it. The truly important fact of Christ's life is that He remained the spotless Lamb able to take away the sins of the world. That is what our salvation is based upon!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/20/2008 6:59:16 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I do not base my salvation on it. The truly important fact of Christ's life is that He remained the spotless Lamb able to take away the sins of the world. That is what our salvation is based upon!
Oh, certainly. This is not a matter of one's salvation, since neither side of the argument falls into the realm of heresy, or what have you. But ya' gotta admit, it's a lot of fun to think about. : )
quote:
I believe that the Incarnate Christ remained fully divine in His nature yet freely emptied Himself of all priveleges, claims, and status associated with His divinity.
If this is true, then how could Christ make the claims He did, demonstrate the power He did, and be the payment for sin He was? In my opinion, those things require not only divine nature, but divine action.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/20/2008 9:53:13 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
If this is true, then how could Christ make the claims He did, demonstrate the power He did, and be the payment for sin He was? In my opinion, those things require not only divine nature, but divine action. By the grace of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit! Hmm, I think that's the same way we can claim to be able not to sin, demonstrate victory over self-centered carnality, and be made righteous and holy. We also can know the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in us, the hope of glory (Col 1:27)!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/20/2008 10:43:07 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
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So if Christ was able to do it. . .
. . . and we do it exactly the same as Him. . .
Why can't we be sinless?
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love.ben
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/20/2008 10:52:22 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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quote:
By the grace of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit!
Then in what way was Christ God? Why couldn't God have just used some human being? Why did He, personally, have to come down and suffer for us? Jesus was begging for a way out of the crucifixion, so I think that if God could have done it another way, He would have - and from your description, it sounds like He could have.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/20/2008 11:07:30 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
So if Christ was able to do it. . .
. . . and we do it exactly the same as Him. . .
Why can't we be sinless? Oh, but we can, 1l1G1w. The question is will we? (By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!)
quote:
Then in what way was Christ God? Surely you do'nt expect me to answer this without at least one seminary course. 
quote:
Why couldn't God have just used some human being? I suppose He could have but His ways are higher than ours.
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Why did He, personally, have to come down and suffer for us? Maybe because all sin is basically against Him. What's your take on it?
quote:
and from your description, it sounds like He could have. "Could haves" are pretty meaningless when we have the Book and know the ending!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/20/2008 11:12:49 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
"Could haves" are pretty meaningless when we have the Book and know the ending!
No, they're not. If Jesus didn't have to come and die, if it could have been done another way, then that shakes up a lot of basic Christian understanding.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/21/2008 8:30:49 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
No, they're not. If Jesus didn't have to come and die, if it could have been done another way, then that shakes up a lot of basic Christian understanding. Well, it may shake up a lot of Reformed understanding but that's not basic Christian doctrine anyway. 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/21/2008 11:27:44 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Well, it may shake up a lot of Reformed understanding but that's not basic Christian doctrine anyway.
I don't understand how you can be so nonchalant about this. If Christ's death was not necessary, then it shakes things up immensely! How can we answer those who say "Well, maybe Jesus was just a good man," if, potentially, He might have been just that?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/21/2008 5:53:02 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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I don't understand how you can misrepresent my position so badly, MrF. Jesus lived a sinless life, whether or not He was impeccable! Jesus did come and die for our sins, whether or not He was impeccable! Faith in Jesus is only way to salvation, whether or not He was impeccable! Whatever God's potential plan of salvation may have been is irrelevant to the OP question. The plan God chose and the life Jesus lived are one and the same.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/21/2008 7:37:15 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I don't understand how you can misrepresent my position so badly, MrF.
I'm unsure how I am misrepresenting it.
quote:
By the grace of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit! Hmm, I think that's the same way we can claim to be able not to sin, demonstrate victory over self-centered carnality, and be made righteous and holy.
If we are able to live a sinless life as Christ did, through the power of the Spirit and by the grace of God, then Christ needn't have died. A mere human could have been the sacrifice for our sins. If nothing Christ did on earth was representative of His deity (which is the impression I have gotten from you), then there is no reason He needed to die. It is only when His earthly ministry is somehow tied directly to His deity that His death is required.
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Jesus lived a sinless life, whether or not He was impeccable!
True, but again, if it's through no intrinsic aspect of His nature, then there is nothing that would keep us normal folks from fulfilling the same role He did.
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Whatever God's potential plan of salvation may have been is irrelevant to the OP question.
Clearly, I don't think they are. If Christ could have sinned, something against the deity-aspect of His nature, then God's plan had a potential flaw.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/21/2008 10:48:44 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
If we are able to live a sinless life as Christ did, through the power of the Spirit and by the grace of God, then Christ needn't have died. Okay, maybe now i'm seeing your concern a little better. Although the Crucifixion and Resurrection are inseparably related, they did not necessarily accomplish the same purposes. I don't expect you to understand my theological position, MrF, any more than I understand yours, but I will give a very brief and over-simplified summary:
Christ died to save us in our sin by His imputed righteousness. Christ rose again to save us from our sin by His imparted righteousness. We are able to not sin because the power of the Holy Spirit came after Christ went away (John 16:5-16). The same grace that kept Christ sinless is available to us as well.
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A mere human could have been the sacrifice for our sins. Well, He was "merely human" but also fully divine. But, since sin is against God, I do not see an "only human" sacrifice adequate to take away the sins of the world.
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If nothing Christ did on earth was representative of His deity (which is the impression I have gotten from you), then there is no reason He needed to die. It is only when His earthly ministry is somehow tied directly to His deity that His death is required. I'm most sorry if i've misspoken on this issue. I would never knowingly deny the deity of Christ, so you may erase that false impression. My point is that peccability no more denies the deity of Christ than your several "aspects of deity" that He temporarily disowned.
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True, but again, if it's through no intrinsic aspect of His nature, then there is nothing that would keep us normal folks from fulfilling the same role He did. I guess I don't see it that way. In fact, I am comforted and encouraged by the fact that Jesus did not sin, even though He (presumably) could have chosen disobedience. I have the same capability when Christ's Spirit lives fully in my surrendered heart!
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Clearly, I don't think they are. If Christ could have sinned, something against the deity-aspect of His nature, then God's plan had a potential flaw. Well, I guess that's the theological dilemma one has when Sovereignty is given precedence over Love! The plan was perfect because Christ showed His perfect Love even in His humanity, not because the Father forced His Son to be perfect only in His divinity. I do not have to sin because Christ never did sin!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/21/2008 11:34:16 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2017
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drmark...I just noticed your signature, that the time of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a now...we'll have to discuss that sometime.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 8:45:27 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
drmark...I just noticed your signature, that the time of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a now...we'll have to discuss that sometime. I discuss the concept on most threads on which I post concerning sinning and holiness of heart. I suspect a few folks are getting tired of hearing me preach.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 10:38:10 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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quote:
I'm most sorry if i've misspoken on this issue. I would never knowingly deny the deity of Christ
I'm certainly not suggesting that, friend. I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I'm suggesting that, if Christ did not act as deity in any way, but was passively divine only, and it was the Father and the Spirit who did all the divine work for Him, then there should have been nothing to keep a mere human from doing what Christ did.
Unless you have Scripture to support the notion that God must die for sins against God.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 11:06:28 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
I'm suggesting that, if Christ did not act as deity in any way, but was passively divine only, and it was the Father and the Spirit who did all the divine work for Him, then there should have been nothing to keep a mere human from doing what Christ did. Well, first of all, what do you mean by "passively divine only"? Phil 2:6-7 indicates that Jesus willingly emptied Himself - nothing passive about that! Are we passively divine when we exercise the mind of Christ and willingly allow the Holy Spirit to direct and empower our deliberate choice to not succumb to temptation? No, we have an active partnership with God to satisfy His Will in our lives.
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Unless you have Scripture to support the notion that God must die for sins against God. You misquoted me, MrF. I said that I believe that a "merely or only human sacrifice" would have been inadequate to take away the sins of the world. Since eternal God cannot die, your request for Scripture is flawed. Now if you would like to review the characteristics of Christ as perfect sacrifice, I would recommend Hebrews chapter 10 for starters.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 2:04:43 PM
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Beanteaser
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From: Minnesota
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I want to add another spin to this conversation. 1 John 3:9 says "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." During my studies (I very well could be wrong here), I came to the conclusion the one who "cannot sin" is referring to "His Seed" which I think is referring to Jesus. 1 Peter 1:23 says "having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever" I understand this to mean "through the eternal word of God, we are born again through incorruptible seed. Again, I think the Seed that cannot be corrupt is Jesus. He is mentioned within the immediate context of both verses and makes the most sense to me.
Again, I could be wrong here and admit this is a work progress. Your thoughts?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 2:20:00 PM
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Beanteaser
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
To tempt is to test I have seen this argument several times on this lengthy thread and my response is - so what?! Is it truly a test if one cannot fail? Is it truly a choice if one cannot choose? Is it truly obedience if one cannot disobey? The Greek verb peirazo or noun peirasmos is variously translated "tempt" or "test" throughout the NT. If God chose to inpire the same word in Matthew 4:1 as He did in 1 Cor 10:13, Hebr 2:18 and Hebr 4:15, then temptation requires the possibility of succumbing to it.
Drmark, do you also think God in the OT is fallible too? We know he was tempted in Massah. Deuteronomy 6:16 says "You shall not tempt the Lord your God as you tempted Him in Massah. Also Exodus 17:2 says "Therefore the people contended with Moses, and said, "Give us water, that we may drink." And Moses said to them, "Why do you contend with me? Why do you tempt the Lord?" Another verse is Malachi 3:5. It says "So now we call the proud blessed, For those who do wickedness are raised up; They even tempt God and go free."
Do you agree with the following statement? "The reason Jesus was fallible was not only because he was human, but because infallibility is also a characteristic of deity."
IMHO, this is very scary territory.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 2:44:28 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
Drmark, do you also think God in the OT is fallible too? We know he was tempted in Massah. Deuteronomy 6:16 says "You shall not tempt the Lord your God as you tempted Him in Massah. Entirely different context, entirely different word, entirely different relevance to the OP.
quote:
Do you agree with the following statement? "The reason Jesus was fallible was not only because he was human, but because infallibility is also a characteristic of deity." I don't understand the question. Fallibity and infallibility are mutually exclusive. Infallibility and impeccability are not the same thing. No one questions that Jesus was infallible. We all know He never sinned. The question is whether He was capable of ever sinning.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 3:47:16 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 255
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I don't understand the question. Fallibity and infallibility are mutually exclusive. Infallibility and impeccability are not the same thing. No one questions that Jesus was infallible. We all know He never sinned. The question is whether He was capable of ever sinning.
I think you are confusing "infallible" with "inerrant."
Infallibility and impeccability are similar in their meaning. They simply mean "can't make an error." One who is
Inerrant is one who hasn't made an error. Understand the distinction? For an example, if a 2nd basemen goes an entire year with making an error, he is inerrant for that year. This does NOT make him infallible since he is capable of making an error.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 4:35:04 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Since eternal God cannot die
Then what did Christ do on the cross?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 4:40:41 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
I think you are confusing "infallible" with "inerrant."
Infallibility and impeccability are similar in their meaning. They simply mean "can't make an error."
The dictionary definition of infallible is to be without error. The RCC distinguishes impeccability from infallibility in the office of Pope. This thread is obviously not about Catholic tradition, but the difference exists between impeccability and infallibility much more than between infallibility and inerrancy.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 4:56:08 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
Then what did Christ do on the cross? I'm speechless, MrF. Surely you understand the concept of distinct persons in the theology of the Trinity. How did the universe function without "God" while He was dead for 36 hours?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 5:26:15 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 255
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I think you are confusing "infallible" with "inerrant."
Infallibility and impeccability are similar in their meaning. They simply mean "can't make an error."
The dictionary definition of infallible is to be without error. The RCC distinguishes impeccability from infallibility in the office of Pope. This thread is obviously not about Catholic tradition, but the difference exists between impeccability and infallibility much more than between infallibility and inerrancy.
It really depends on which dictionary you use and what definition you chose to quote. For example, an online dictionary gives "Infallible" these meanings: 1. Incapable of erring 2. Incapable of failing; certain: 3. Roman Catholic Church Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.
The same dictionary gives "inerrant" this meaning-Containing no errors
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/22/2008 5:29:19 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 255
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From: Minnesota
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Does anyone want to discuss post #242? I just don't want it to get lost in all the new posts.
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