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[Poll]
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Could Jesus have sinned?
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| Jesus was God so he was infallible |
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| Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible |
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| I have no idea. |
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Total Votes : 56
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(last vote on : 10/2/2008 9:16:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/24/2008 11:06:41 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
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quote:
is it right to say that He "could not have sinned" or is it right to say that He "was perfect and chose not to sin"?
That's kinda the point of this whole thread. ; )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 1:01:47 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
Actually the bible does'nt call Jesus fully human and fully divine it's a deduction. Not to say i don't believe he was and is divine but if he kept his diety as a human then much of the NT does'nt make sense.
Actually, Col 2:9 says "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
Beanteaser, Yes after his resurrection but while he walked the earth as a man IMO he set aside his divine attributes. (Phil 2.7)
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 1:06:01 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
nor get tired,
But God rested on the 7th day of creation.
Cmon Beanteaser, ya know the word "rested" does not mean God was tired, right? It means ceased from his works. On the other hand Jesus really did get tired.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 3:37:33 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
Yes after his resurrection but while he walked the earth as a man IMO he set aside his divine attributes. (Phil 2.7)
Just to clarify - are you saying Jesus wasn't God while on earth?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 4:56:08 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
Just to clarify - are you saying Jesus wasn't God while on earth?
MrFribbles, Did Jesus die? Can God die?
Clearly something had to be done to make it possible for God the Son to die since God can't die yet Jesus did as it says in Rev.
Therefore he must have emptied himself of his divinity (Phil 2.7) and left it with his Father and came to us as a real man who really died.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 6:44:15 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
MrFribbles, Did Jesus die? Can God die?
Clearly something had to be done to make it possible for God the Son to die since God can't die yet Jesus did as it says in Rev.
Therefore he must have emptied himself of his divinity (Phil 2.7) and left it with his Father and came to us as a real man who really died.
So, you're denying the deity of Christ?
Incidentally, the answers to your question would be yes, and apparently so.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 6:49:10 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
So, you're denying the deity of Christ?
Did you notice that i called Jesus, "God the Son"? Does that answer your question?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 6:50:47 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
Did you notice that i called Jesus, "God the Son"? Does that answer your question?
If Jesus was not God while on earth, then what happened? Did His Godness just float around in heaven for awhile, waiting to indwell the resurrected holy man named Jesus?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 6:52:49 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
Incidentally, the answers to your question would be yes, and apparently so.
You say "apparently so" to my question , can God die? But Paul said God alone has immortality, correct? Therefore immortality means eternal LIFE, thus deathproof!
Therefore HOW can Jesus die?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 6:54:50 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
If Jesus was not God while on earth, then what happened? Did His Godness just float around in heaven for awhile, waiting to indwell the resurrected holy man named Jesus?
He apparently left it with his Father (Phil 2.7).
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 6:55:57 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
But Paul said God alone has immortality, correct? Therefore immortality means eternal LIFE, thus deathproof!
Therefore HOW can Jesus die?
God is eternal and immortal, yes. But God did not die - God the Son died. It's not as if He ceased to exist at the moment of death, anymore than we do.
He had to die. If God did not truly die, then death was not truly conquered through the resurrection.
quote:
He apparently left it with his Father (Phil 2.7).
There's nothing in that verse proving Christ put aside His deity while on earth. It is, speaking in an exegetical fashion, just as viable (and I would argue, the more correct view) to say that Christ willingly chose not to exercise certain aspects of His deity while on earth.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 7:00:26 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
God is eternal and immortal, yes. But God did not die - God the Son died.
OK you acknowledge that God the Son died, correct? He had to actually die to conquer sin and death.
But how can Jesus die if he is immortal?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/27/2008 7:03:10 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
OK you acknowledge that God the Son died, correct? He had to actually die to conquer sin and death.
But how can Jesus die if he is immortal?
The same way God Almighty can dwell on earth as a man - I just don't know. Some mysteries are beyond me, and the exact mechanics of this particular mystery is one of them.
Now, you tell me - what good is it calling God the Son Jesus if He was only God after the resurrection?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/28/2008 11:14:34 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
Now, you tell me - what good is it calling God the Son Jesus if He was only God after the resurrection?
You can't graduate to becoming God. Either you are or you're not. So Christ has always been divine but the fact is that he really died as a man. That's why i think Phil 2.7 refers to him emptying himself of his divine attributes and leaving it with his Father. When he was resurrected this "glory" was returned to him.
You said my view is not orthodoxy but Hank Hanneggraff says Christ set aside his divine attributes and is this view really different then what i just described?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/28/2008 1:29:33 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
So Christ has always been divine but the fact is that he really died as a man. That's why i think Phil 2.7 refers to him emptying himself of his divine attributes and leaving it with his Father.
So Jesus, while on earth prior to the resurrection, wasn't God?
quote:
but Hank Hanneggraff says
Did Hank write Scripture? Is Hank inspired? Obviously not. Just because a "trusted name" says something doesn't make it true.
How do you respond to Romans 5:10, that makes it clear that the Son really died? How could we have been reconciled with God is anyone but God had died?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/28/2008 9:38:27 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
How do you respond to Romans 5:10, that makes it clear that the Son really died? How could we have been reconciled with God is anyone but God had died?
As i said an "immortal" being can not die by definition or he would'nt be immortal. That's what immortal means , that you can not die.
Therefore for Jesus to die he had to set aside his immortality and IMO that's what Paul is saying in Phil 2.7.
If you believe that's not correct and it's a mystery, that's fine.
I think it's time to move on to another subject.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/28/2008 10:15:03 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
I think it's time to move on to another subject.
I don't. Personally, I find the deity of Christ a serious matter.
quote:
Therefore for Jesus to die he had to set aside his immortality and IMO that's what Paul is saying in Phil 2.7.
Aah, see, this is different from what you were saying earlier.
quote:
That's why i think Phil 2.7 refers to him emptying himself of his divine attributes and leaving it with his Father.
There's a big difference between saying Jesus gave up His immortality, and Him giving up His divine attributes.
Is immortality the only attribute you believe He gave up?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/29/2008 6:07:41 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
There's a big difference between saying Jesus gave up His immortality, and Him giving up His divine attributes.
Is immortality the only attribute you believe He gave up?
Clearly Jesus got tired, slept, got hungry and experienced real pain. Does Father God experience these things?
So obviously Jesus "set aside" other divine attributes besides immortality.
Please note i did'nt say he gave these up , i said he set these aside.
As far as his diety goes we have no disagreement other then the fact that to me it's clear Christ had to set aside his divine attributes to become like us just as the book of Hebrews says.
If i understand you correctly , you said all this is a mystery, so i'm not sure what else is left to say on this.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/29/2008 6:26:14 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
If i understand you correctly , you said all this is a mystery, so i'm not sure what else is left to say on this.
I said that His death while still being God was a mystery. Besides, if we ignore mysteries, then why ask questions?
quote:
As far as his diety goes we have no disagreement other then the fact that to me it's clear Christ had to set aside his divine attributes to become like us just as the book of Hebrews says.
If He was no different than us, then how did He know/do the things He did? When the woman who had suffered bleeding touched Him, He felt power leave Him. To me, that suggests He had intrinsic power within Himself - power we do not have.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/29/2008 9:06:06 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
If He was no different than us, then how did He know/do the things He did? When the woman who had suffered bleeding touched Him, He felt power leave Him. To me, that suggests He had intrinsic power within Himself - power we do not have.
Nope, In Acts 2 or 3 it says Christ did his miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit.
He never did any miracles until after he was baptized with the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 9/30/2008 11:40:53 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
Nope, In Acts 2 or 3 it says Christ did his miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit.
He never did any miracles until after he was baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Then why did Satan tempt Him to turn stones to bread? Surely the Holy Spirit could not have sinned along with Jesus, and Jesus couldn't have done it on His own, according to you.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 10/1/2008 11:26:15 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
Then why did Satan tempt Him to turn stones to bread? Surely the Holy Spirit could not have sinned along with Jesus, and Jesus couldn't have done it on His own, according to you.
I don't understand your question. Jesus could'nt have done it? What is it? If you mean turning stones into bread , Jesus made bread out of nothing for the 5,000 later on so he could have done that.
If you mean sin, yes he could have because if not the temptation would not have been real.
Jesus became like us which makes what he did all the more remarkable. This is where his power came from,
"God annointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost AND WITH POWER who went about doing good , and healing all that were oppressed of the devil , for God was with him." Acts 10.38
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 10/1/2008 11:43:05 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
I don't understand your question. Jesus could'nt have done it? What is it? If you mean turning stones into bread , Jesus made bread out of nothing for the 5,000 later on so he could have done that.
Yes, that is what I meant. My question was about how Jesus could have done a miracle that would have led to sin, if that power came from the Holy Spirit. It's one thing to say that Jesus could have sinned while on earth, but it's another say that the Holy Spirit would be the agent for that sin.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 10/2/2008 12:13:22 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
Yes, that is what I meant. My question was about how Jesus could have done a miracle that would have led to sin, if that power came from the Holy Spirit. It's one thing to say that Jesus could have sinned while on earth, but it's another say that the Holy Spirit would be the agent for that sin.
I'm not sure if turning stones into bread since Jesus was near starving would necessarily be sin. Jesus was being tested since the Holy Spirit lead Jesus into the wilderness and to qualify to move forward Jesus had to resist the devil but i'm not sure if this particular act would be sinful.
If it would be sinful then perhaps Jesus could'nt have actually done it but the real issue was whether he would give in and try to do it and be swayed by the devil. So the sin would be in the attempt to pull it off , just giving in to the devil.
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