RE: Could Jesus have sinned?

RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> God

[Poll]

Could Jesus have sinned?

Jesus was God so he was infallible

48% (27)

Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned

44% (25)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible

1% (1)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible

3% (2)

I have no idea.

1% (1)

Total Votes : 56

(last vote on : 10/2/2008 9:16:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/1/2008 6:09:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: Beanteaser Who was Immanuel? If he wasn't God, who or what was he? Jesus, being fully divine, did die. That is what makes it so amazing, awesome, and mysterious. if the Son has all the attributes of the Father and the Son died that means that the Father can also die? Death does not mean that one ceases to exist,it is nothing more than spirit separating itself from the physical body.The death of Jesus would and could never mean that God died.

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/1/2008 6:27:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone The death of Jesus would and could never mean that God died. this would seem to mean then that in the incarnation Jesus and the Father in some way had different attributes

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/1/2008 6:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone The death of Jesus would and could never mean that God died. this would seem to mean then that in the incarnation Jesus and the Father in some way had different attributes I'm a little to slow on the uptake to know what that means.My point is that death does not mean ceasing to exist as it seems you were suggesting,rather it is an end to the physical body.The spirit does not cease to live on. So in fact God can not die.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 9:57:50 AM)
quote: quote: I think it's important how we see this Mark just for understanding sake.Lets say that it's important to see Jesus as capable of sinning,because it shows he can relate to us,and it proves that like him we can overcome. Does that mean then that Gods expectation of Christians is to be sinless as Jesus was? I'm not talking keeping the ten commandments perfectly,I'm talking about truly overcoming our sin nature.Being perfect like Jesus was. Yes, this is exactly what I believe and is essentially aligned with Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. Then how can God expect something to happen that can not happen?There is none perfect but Jesus,and no one has ever before him or since him been perfect. The sinlessness of Jesus does not point to my being able to be sinless as well.It merely speaks to how perfect a High Priest we have,and the newfound rights we enjoy because of it.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 2:31:24 PM)
quote: Then how can God expect something to happen that can not happen?There is none perfect but Jesus,and no one has ever before him or since him been perfect. So how do you know every Christian who has ever lived over 1950+ years to make such a claim? Are you sure that no Christian has ever stopped sinning since they were saved? Are you sure that no Christian has ever not loved God with all his being after being saved? Are you sure that the thief on the cross was ever less than perfect between his salvation and his physical death? Is there a Bible verse that supports the idea that "no one has ever before him or since him been perfect."? I suspect your making up theology to suit your theology, sunofone. quote: The sinlessness of Jesus does not point to my being able to be sinless as well.It merely speaks to how perfect a High Priest we have,and the newfound rights we enjoy because of it. I'm sorry you do not believe this, sunofone. I do and God helps me not to sin, by His grace and power!

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 2:37:16 PM)
quote: this would seem to mean then that in the incarnation Jesus and the Father in some way had different attributes Absolutely correct, john_mark. They had different attributes because They are different Persons of the Triune Godhead. Father God does not equal Jesus does not equal Holy Spirit. This means distinct but not separate in the orthodoxy of the Trinity.

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 2:45:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone I'm a little to slow on the uptake to know what that means.My point is that death does not mean ceasing to exist as it seems you were suggesting,rather it is an end to the physical body.The spirit does not cease to live on. So in fact God can not die. sorry, let me try to explain. i understand existance/salvation to include more than the soul/spirit. i believe that existance/salvation concerns the whole of human nature, body and soul. one without the other is an incomplete description of human nature. i understand what you are saying to point. but you are placing emphisis on the spiritual and down playing the phyiscal. let us look at human nature. using your understanding of death nobody ever dies, their phyiscal body just ceases to exist. we are immortal. let us look at scripture. 1 cor 15 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. within chapter 15 paul is speaking of the physical bodily resseruction. if we look at the passage above death is not defeated until mankind is in their ressurection body. sin produces death, in this passage physical death, sin is not defeated until the ressurection. from your viewpoint spiritual death cannot happen and i would agree with that but probably for different reasons. the emphsis in scripture when talking about death seems to be focused on physical death. the seperation of the spirit and the body is a serious condition to be in. it is so serious that Jesus took on a human body, died a human death, and rose on the 3rd day to remedy the problem. when Jesus died on the cross His work was not complete. it was only complete when He rose from the dead in His ressurection body. as paul says if Christ is not raised from the dead then we are still in our sins. so when Jesus united Himself to a physical body at the incarnation, and rose up after death in the ressurection body, He did something that God the Father could not do because the Father doesnt have a body. the Son has an attribute that the Father does not have. therefore the attributes of the Father do not equal the attributes of the Son. for this reason i dont believe one can down play the human nature of Jesus. may i ask, do you believe that Jesus was fully human? if not what portion of human nature did Jesus lack?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 2:49:17 PM)
quote: Dr, can you clarify this statement for me? Comparing Adam and Jesus is not a fair comparison. That's odd, Beanteaser. Paul thought it was a perfectly fine comparison several times in his letters. Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15 come immediately to mind if you care to review them. quote: There wasn't an ounce of deity in Adam's being. That is why he sinned. Jesus, on the extremely obvious other hand, was and still is fully divine. That is why he couldn't sin. Once again, this is your opinion of the Incarnated Jesus. One last time, I would like a relevant Scripture passage to support the idea that Jesus could not sin. And, BTW, I consider being created in God's Image to be a whole lot more than one mere ounce of deity! Adam was created very good, without a sinful nature, capable of free moral choices and able to distinguish right from wrong. Are these not characteristics of His Creator?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 2:56:11 PM)
quote: for this reason i dont believe one can down play the human nature of Jesus. may i ask, do you believe that Jesus was fully human? if not what portion of human nature did Jesus lack? While we're waiting for sunofone's response, let's remember that in fallen man, sinful nature is NOT the same as human nature. Neither Jesus nor Adam (before he disobeyed) had a sinful nature. Both had human natures, although I wonder how imperfect Adam's was given the very good world he lived in at first. Jesus, on the other hand, lived in a hugely fallen and depraved world. Did His Incarnation protect Him from human weaknesses, frailties, and imperfections altogether?

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 2:57:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark And, BTW, I consider being created in God's Image to be a whole lot more than one mere ounce of deity! Adam was created very good, without a sinful nature, capable of free moral choices and able to distinguish right from wrong. Are these not characteristics of His Creator? i agree wholeheartly with this, as well as what you have said earlier, adam was created with the ability to sin or not to sin.

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 3:16:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark While we're waiting for sunofone's response, let's remember that in fallen man, sinful nature is NOT the same as human nature. Neither Jesus nor Adam (before he disobeyed) had a sinful nature. Both had human natures, although I wonder how imperfect Adam's was given the very good world he lived in at first. Jesus, on the other hand, lived in a hugely fallen and depraved world. Did His Incarnation protect Him from human weaknesses, frailties, and imperfections altogether? i understand what your saying, and i agree that Jesus was incarnated without a fallen nature in reguard to sin. to talk more of a fallen nature would probably go off topic. i think adam's nature was perfect in that he could do and accomplish all that God had intended him to do. as i read scripture i dont see any indication in the gospels that would lead me to believe that Jesus didnt suffer all the human weaknesses we do. i dont recall any passages speaking of Jesus as a superior human speciman.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 3:23:17 PM)
quote: to talk more of a fallen nature would probably go off topic. Actually, for some posting here this is entirely on topic because they define sin as "missing the mark" which certainly anyone living in a fallen world does on a regular basis. But that's not my understanding of a sinless Jesus or a sinless Believer!

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 3:27:22 PM)
quote: So how do you know every Christian who has ever lived over 1950+ years to make such a claim? Are you sure that no Christian has ever stopped sinning since they were saved? Are you sure that no Christian has ever not loved God with all his being after being saved? Are you sure that the thief on the cross was ever less than perfect between his salvation and his physical death? Is there a Bible verse that supports the idea that "no one has ever before him or since him been perfect."? I suspect your making up theology to suit your theology, sunofone. This is for me so incredulous I don't know how to address it.If you believe that someone before Jesus was perfect or even after him,then far be it from me to try and convince you otherwise.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 3:42:31 PM)
quote: Actually, for some posting here this is entirely on topic because they define sin as "missing the mark" which certainly anyone living in a fallen world does on a regular basis. But that's not my understanding of a sinless Jesus or a sinless Believer! ______________ I'll try to address both of your post in this one response.While Jesus was on the cross just before he died he cried Father into thy hands I commend my spirit,he then gave up the spirit. The spirit seperated itself from the body but continued to exist just as every man has and will.Death is of this realm called time,our spirit which comes from God does not die,God who is spirit can not die. As for your definition of sinlessness I am curious to know what it is.Sin in it's most basic level involves opposing wills,our will and Gods.Whenever we choose our will over God's we are in sin. Jesus had a will which he states he did not come to do or follow after,he came to do the will of his Father,so he constantly submitted his will to Gods will.That is sinlessness. We who are unlike Adam and Jesus sin just by breathing in and out.Our very nature opposes God and his will leaving us in a perpetual state of disobedience and sin.Jesus broke that cycle for us and causes us to be better then we could be in and of ourselves. Even still we have a nature that remains sinful which we must constantly resist daily second by second,following after his spirit,submitting ourselves to him.

bob97 -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/2/2008 3:56:36 PM)
I understand sin as anything that falls short of the perfect will of God. Christ was begotten of the essence of God, was God in the flesh and came to earth to obey the will of the Father...I find it pretty difficult to see how Christ could ever sin. I said in a earlier post that He could be tempted but if He was destined to obey the will of God, how could He sin? Bob

URForgiven -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 10:24:13 AM)
Jesus is the only person ever born spiritually alive. What that means in practical terms is that He was born without mans sinful nature and with Gods Spirit intact, within Him. Although God Himself, Jesus set aside His deity and functioned on this earth, totally and at all times only as a man. He is the embodiment of what a true man, as created, is; devoid of sinful human nature, indwelt by the Spirit of God and led by the Spirit of God. Jesus is the second Adam. Where the first Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. He succeeded because He was always and at all times dependent upon God the Father. He allowed God the Father to work in and through Him, thereby fulfilling the purpose for which man had been created. There was never any activity of Jesus that was any less spiritual than any other, for He was always in a dependent relationship with His Father. He did what Adam didn't do, He did what we do not do...He allowed God to work in and through Him to do as He pleased. ...and they crucified Him for it. Could Jesus have sinned? As a functioning human being, he was tempted in every way as us. If the choice to sin is not there, then there is no true temptation. Satan's temptation of Jesus was in trying to get Him to act independently of God the Father. This is all Satan has to work with, it is all he has ever needed, But, there was nothing in Jesus that sin could appeal to. He did not have a sinful nature and where the first Adam failed, bringing upon all of humanity a sinful nature, Jesus succeeded...bringing to humanity the wonderful gift of life, eternal life, His own resurrected life, the Spirit of God restored within those who simply accept the "One who is Life".

Gallivant -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 10:43:10 AM)
Yes, he could sin but then he couldn't sin.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 11:32:02 AM)
quote: This is for me so incredulous I don't know how to address it. If you believe that someone before Jesus was perfect or even after him,then far be it from me to try and convince you otherwise. Yes, I realize that, sunofone. May I respectfully suggest that you have an incomplete or even faulty understanding of "Christian perfection". Perhaps this short explanation might reduce some of your incredulity. quote: As for your definition of sinlessness I am curious to know what it is.Sin in it's most basic level involves opposing wills,our will and Gods.Whenever we choose our will over God's we are in sin. There are several other threads on sinlessness which could easily be re-activated if you care to discuss the concept further. Basically, I agree with you that sin is disobeying the known Will of God, so that being sinless means obeying God's Will. quote: We who are unlike Adam and Jesus sin just by breathing in and out. This is for me so incredulous I don't know how to address it. Seriously, sunofone, how can you define sin so properly in one statement and then turn around and mangle the definition so greatly in the next? If our breathing is disobeying God's Will, then you must believe He wants us to stop breathing? I'm incredulous! quote: Our very nature opposes God and his will leaving us in a perpetual state of disobedience and sin.Jesus broke that cycle for us and causes us to be better then we could be in and of ourselves. Our sinful or carnal nature opposes God's Will and the Holy Spirit living in us causes us to be holy, when we are cleansed of our sinful nature and fully submit to His control. quote: Even still we have a nature that remains sinful which we must constantly resist daily second by second,following after his spirit,submitting ourselves to him. While some Believers may have that sinful nature, it is possible for the Holy Spirit to cleanse us of our sinful nature and no longer have to "constantly resist daily second by second" in our own ability. Then, just like Jesus, we can choose not to sin every time. quote: I said in a earlier post that He could be tempted but if He was destined to obey the will of God, how could He sin? How is God "destined" to do anything, Bob? If He is God, doesn't He create destiny? quote: As a functioning human being, he was tempted in every way as us. If the choice to sin is not there, then there is no true temptation. I agree, URF. quote: But, there was nothing in Jesus that sin could appeal to. He did not have a sinful nature and where the first Adam failed, bringing upon all of humanity a sinful nature, Jesus succeeded So was Adam created with a sinful nature, URF? If not, then what did Satan have to appeal to in Adam? Why did Jesus succeed where Adam failed if both were sinless from the start?

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 12:09:20 PM)
quote: This is for me so incredulous I don't know how to address it. Seriously, sunofone, how can you define sin so properly in one statement and then turn around and mangle the definition so greatly in the next? If our breathing is disobeying God's Will, then you must believe He wants us to stop breathing? I'm incredulous! quote: Thanks for your reply Mark,I'm not ignoring the whole of your post only to address this,I'm simply clarifying my statement.I did not mean to suggest that breathing was sin,just our existence itself is.We are by our very nature sinful. In order or exist one has to breathe,so it was just a matter of fact way of saying the same.I appreciate the link you provided and it does add context to your statement,concerning perfection. Clearly our disagreement in how we define perfection or sinlessness is at the heart of our discussion.I am always happy to discover where and why I find disagreement with someone. As for the rest of your post,I only take exception to the idea that the Holy Spirit can cleanse us of our sinful nature,in the sense that it permanently removes our sinful nature.Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by that. For the most part I suppose we are attempting to split hairs in an effort to distinguish our respective positions.In either case I enjoy the effort involved in attempting to come to a place of agreement. Thanks again Steve

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 1:11:40 PM)
quote: I did not mean to suggest that breathing was sin,just our existence itself is. We are by our very nature sinful. I would like to restate that as follows: We are, as descendants of Adam who first sinned, subject to the very nature of our fallen, sinful world which Adam caused and everyone of us perpetuates. However, in my view that does NOT mean human existence equals sin for then why would God have created us in His Image, only a little lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor, and given rule over everything in this world? We are destined for Heaven and our true natures must be holy! quote: Clearly our disagreement in how we define perfection or sinlessness is at the heart of our discussion. Actually, I have found that almost all disagreements debated on these theology discussion threads boil down to understanding sin and what God wants to do about it! quote: As for the rest of your post,I only take exception to the idea that the Holy Spirit can cleanse us of our sinful nature,in the sense that it permanently removes our sinful nature.Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by that. No problem, Steve. How do you understand 1 John 1:7 and 9? Maybe that's clearer than what I posted. quote: For the most part I suppose we are attempting to split hairs in an effort to distinguish our respective positions. Some might view it as splitting hairs, but I believe the commands to be holy, perfect, righteous, and pure are at the heart of true Christianity. In my personal experience and tradition of doctrine, the only way to be holy is to accept and apply the fact that Christ's Spirit can be holy in, with, and through us. If Jesus could not choose to sin, then this concept is worthless!

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 1:53:32 PM)
Hey Mark I read your post and something is getting lost in translation,or I'm having a hard time getting an accurate read on you somehow.On the one hand you present yourself well enough to have a firm grasp of scripture,but then I hear or understand you to say or suggest things that I'm not able balance with the gospel. I suppose the same can be said of myself by you,at any rate I'm sort of at a lost in continuing to have a meaningful discourse with you. For instance you asked me what I thought of 1 John 1 vs 7,and 9 I'm not sure if you intended to leave off vs 8.I guess I assume you did intend to leave that verse out,which is questionable because that verse gives context to the other scriptures. Also your belief that our true nature is holy,begs further clarification.On it's own I could take that statement to mean something that is not supported by the gospel. So unless I have misunderstood you,and you care to clear things up with me,I'm going to have to respectfully agree to disagree with you and move on from our discussion. Thanks,Steve

Ezra -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 2:08:56 PM)
quote: If Jesus could not choose to sin, then this concept is worthless! This remark smacks of humanistic thinking. That redeemed sinners can only resist sin in the power of the Holy Spirit is one thing. That the God-Man could not choose to sin is quite another thing. Humans (creatures) will never become God (the Creator). Even though God empowers redeemed sinners to resist sin, and even though Christ will perfect His saints -- body, soul, and spirit -- when He appears for them, creatures are creatures and the Creator is the Creator. Christ is indeed the Creator -- one with the Father, and the Spirit. That He condescended to put on the likeness of sinless humanity was an act of grace. But to drag Christ down to the level of redeemed sinners is to totally misunderstand the nature of God and Christ. Paul states regarding Christ: "Who are Israelites... Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh [body] Christ came, WHO IS OVER ALL, GOD BLESSED FOR EVER. Amen" (Rom. 9:4,5). It was impossible for God to sin. It was impossible for Christ to sin, since He is God. It's time to give it up, drmark. There are times when Christians must acknowledge God's truth, no matter how contrary it is to human logic. Believe God. To continue to insist that Christ could have sinned is to continue to resist God's truth.

URForgiven -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 2:09:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark So was Adam created with a sinful nature, URF? If not, then what did Satan have to appeal to in Adam? Why did Jesus succeed where Adam failed if both were sinless from the start? The simple answer is they were both tempted in the same way, by Satan appealing to their own free will. Jesus succeeded because He submitted Himself totally and completely to the will of God the Father...He remained dependent upon the Father at all times. Jesus voluntarily set aside His own free will in favor of relying on God's will. He humbled Himself. Whereas Adam choose independence from God's will, he choose to function outside of the will of God. He made himself his own god. Once Adam had entertained that thought, Satan then had something he could work with, something to appeal to...pride. Pride is Satan's specialty. Pride is not the sin. Pride is what causes us to choose independence and self-sufficiency over dependence upon the sufficiency of God. Pride does indeed come before the fall. Anytime we are functioning in our own power, anytime we choose our own will over God's will, we are acting independently of the Spirit of God within us...and we are dancing in the Devils playground.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 3:26:41 PM)
Good answer URF!

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/3/2008 9:31:22 PM)
quote: For instance you asked me what I thought of 1 John 1 vs 7,and 9 I'm not sure if you intended to leave off vs 8.I guess I assume you did intend to leave that verse out,which is questionable because that verse gives context to the other scriptures. In all honesty, Steve, it is verse 8 that needs the context of verses 7 and 9 so as not to imply a sinning religion! But that is why we agree to disagree on this subject, so continued meaningful discourse is unlikely. quote: Also your belief that our true nature is holy,begs further clarification.On it's own I could take that statement to mean something that is not supported by the gospel. There's not a whole lot to clarify. Genesis 1:26-31 and Hebr 2:5-8 seem pretty straightforward to me. Perhaps I would merely add that "true nature" means "intended and created nature", not where we are today by mankind's universal choice to sin. quote: This remark smacks of humanistic thinking. That redeemed sinners can only resist sin in the power of the Holy Spirit is one thing. That the God-Man could not choose to sin is quite another thing. I respect your opinion, Ezra, but I find it quite lacking in substance. Where does the power of the Holy Spirit come from if not the perfect choices of the sinless Christ? Nothing humanistic about that! quote: That He condescended to put on the likeness of sinless humanity was an act of grace. "Put on only the likeness of sinless humanity"? Was Jesus fully human, Ezra? I think you know the Early Church creeds better than that! quote: But to drag Christ down to the level of redeemed sinners is to totally misunderstand the nature of God and Christ. But to fail to accept that redeemed sinners may come up to a certain level of God's Holiness is to partially misunderstand the purpose of the Atonement. We are saved in our sins and from our sin! quote: It was impossible for God to sin. It was impossible for Christ to sin, since He is God. Distinct but not separate is the orthodox concept of the Trinity. This statement is sloppy theology, in my opinion. quote: It's time to give it up, drmark. There are times when Christians must acknowledge God's truth, no matter how contrary it is to human logic. Believe God. To continue to insist that Christ could have sinned is to continue to resist God's truth. Sorry, Ezra, this isn't a game to forfeit! You (nor anyone else) have yet to show me a Scriptural passage that clearly indicates the Incarnated Christ was incapable of sinning. On the other hand, at least three of us have shared passages which demonstrate Jesus had free will to exercise. It is you, my brother, who seems unwilling to acknowledge Truth! quote: Jesus succeeded because He submitted Himself totally and completely to the will of God the Father...He remained dependent upon the Father at all times. Jesus voluntarily set aside His own free will in favor of relying on God's will. He humbled Himself. Yes indeed, URF, we understand how Jesus succeeded. The real debate here is why Jesus succeeded. So please respond to Ezra and tell us if Jesus was forced to submit to the Father's Will, predestined to remain dependent, or spiritually incapable of setting aside His own will. If none of those, then Jesus could have sinned!

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>