RE: Could Jesus have sinned?

RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Could Jesus have sinned?

Jesus was God so he was infallible

52% (23)

Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned

40% (18)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible

2% (1)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible

4% (2)

I have no idea.

0% (0)

Total Votes : 44

(last vote on : 9/3/2008 1:56:50 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

Beanteaser -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/5/2008 5:22:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: Jesus was never enticed to sin, at least there aren't any examples in Scriptures. I'm sorry, BT but this makes no sense to me. If Jesus quoted Scripture to refute Satan's "tests" then Jesus knew that to succumb to the tests would be disobeying God's Word. If that isn't sinning then what is?! Just because Jesus was presented with an opportunity to sin doesn't mean he was enticed.

DaveW -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 6:33:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker So you guys are saying that our salvation was hanging on the balance of whether Jesus would choose to obey or disobey God at any moment of His life? That is pretty much true.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 8:35:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker So you guys are saying that our salvation was hanging on the balance of whether Jesus would choose to obey or disobey God at any moment of His life? That is pretty much true. If this is what you guys believe,would you mind helping me to understand what would make you believe this?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 8:38:50 AM)
One last time, sunofone, what difference does it make what we believe about the (hypothetical) free will and/or faith of Jesus. The fact is He died and rose again for our salvation and sanctification. That's the only important thing I need to believe!

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 9:19:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark One last time, sunofone, what difference does it make what we believe about the (hypothetical) free will and/or faith of Jesus. The fact is He died and rose again for our salvation and sanctification. That's the only important thing I need to believe! I'm not trying to engage you in an argument Mark.I'm genuinely interested in your or others perspective.I agree that it is not a matter of salvation but 99% of the topics we discuss here fall into this category.I suppose we discuss them to attempt to better align ourselves to God. For instance it is clear to me that in this particular discussion you believe Jesus perfection speaks to our being able to be perfect.So it does have some significance how we see what we're seeing.So again I'm curious to know how you have come to your conclusion,concerning my question. If you don't care to answer,I can accept that.

DaveW -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 11:17:06 AM)
The gospels show temptations put before our Lord. Hebrews says He was tempted in all ways but remained sinless. A temptation is not really a temptation if one cannot respond to it. IN the garden we see Jesus praying for the "cup" to be removed - i.e. the upcoming trial and crucifiction. But HE ended with "not my will but yours be done." We see him sweating blood. He REEEEAAAALLLLLY wanted to not have to go thru the cross which He understood was the Father's plan for Him, and to not follow thru would have been direct disobedience. (sin) Ray Overholt wrote a gospel song back in the day called "He Could Have Called 10.000 Angels" to show how easy it would have been for Him to go another way. BUT HE DID NOT.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 11:21:43 AM)
quote: For instance it is clear to me that in this particular discussion you believe Jesus perfection speaks to our being able to be perfect.So it does have some significance how we see what we're seeing.So again I'm curious to know how you have come to your conclusion,concerning my question. Okay, I apologize if my last response seemed a little curt. I guess it's a compliment to ask one about the reasons for their perspective, but I do agree with you that this whole issue is non-essential Christian doctrine, at least relative to salvation. It certainly is essential for my understanding of entire sanctification! I guess, very broadly, that I "come to my conclusion" the way most any student of Wesleyan theology would. I believe Christ's "free will" is founded upon Biblical principles, and supported by centuries of doctrinal tradition, the use of reasonable common sense, and my own personal experience of Christian perfection. This is how most Wesleyans develop doctrinal understanding by use of the so-called Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 11:23:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone If this is what you guys believe,would you mind helping me to understand what would make you believe this? only speaking for myself let me try and answer, though i already know my answer will be incomplete. we agree that Jesus was fully God and fully man. none of us have experienced what that is like so none of us can describe it. the incarnation is for us a mystery. once we say that Jesus could not sin because He has a divine nature we have eliminated His human nature. as i posted earlier that idea was an early heresy in the church. see this link. perhaps we agree that about his human body the gospels dont report anything unique about Jesus that would lead us to believe that because Jesus was incarnated in a human body that his body was anything other than a fallen body. however i understand that this statement is only true if you understand that the physical body suffered in the fall as all creation did. or would you argue that because Jesus was divine He was physically different than us? i dont believe that Jesus divinty in anyway changed the physical body that Jesus was born with. it was part of His humanity, in the same way i cant remove from Jesus his human nature. i believe that Jesus had both a divine and human nature, that one did not replace the other. if one replaced the other He wasnt fully human. with that human nature comes the possibilty of sin. adam was created with the possibilty of sin. i agree that the divine nature cannot sin. so to eliminate the possiblity of sin is to eliminate the human nature.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 12:24:12 PM)
I appreciate all of your responses from the question,and I believe I now grasp as best I can what your saying.I believe for the most part this discussion involves a play on words. In particular, Temptation and could.I think we are all in agreement that Jesus being tempted meant tested,but the question still remains concerning could. On this word I really want to concede that he could,because I understand what you're driving at.You believe in Jesus humanity,and his independent will.I do as well,I don't believe that there is any question that he was a true human.like we are. I think the only question concerning his humanity is whether he shared in our sinful human condition,or the condition which Adam had prior to his act of disobedience. Leaving that argument aside,in either case the question would remain could he if he wanted to sin?On this question I would be willing to say yes he could![:o] It's not a change of position,or a contradiction of my firm position that Jesus could not sin.It's simply a pause in consideration of honestly assessing both sides of the argument. The word pause,was used intentionally to show how I could concede this point.If I reduce Jesus to being human only,as fully human as we,regardless of which nature he nay have possessed in regards to sin.Than I can fairly say that the possibility exist that he could have sinned. If on the other hand I choose to evaluate Jesus in his total essence to include his Divine nature,working not against but in unison with his human nature then I can easily say no he could not sin. Imagine the question being reversed.Can a Christian who totally commits his life to God,is full of the Holy Spirit be kept from sin?If you say yes,then the answer concerning Jesus should be a little more clear. Jesus while human totally committed himself to the task at hand,and was full of the Spirit without measure as to be Divine.So is God able to see him through this commitment? If the failure of Jesus was equal to the failure of Gods ability to keep him,could God fail?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 12:42:50 PM)
quote: Imagine the question being reversed.Can a Christian who totally commits his life to God,is full of the Holy Spirit be kept from sin?If you say yes,then the answer concerning Jesus should be a little more clear. BINGO, sunofone! Now you're grasping the concept of holiness through entire sanctification. I do not sin, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, when I'm totally committed to Christ, fully submitted to the Spirit, and walking in all the Light the Father gives me. Praise His Name! quote: Jesus while human totally committed himself to the task at hand,and was full of the Spirit without measure as to be Divine.So is God able to see him through this commitment? Of course, God DID see Him through this commitment, just like He will honor our commitment not to sin, by His grace and power. quote: If the failure of Jesus was equal to the failure of Gods ability to keep him,could God fail? No more meaningless hypotheticals, sunofone. Jesus did not fail, God did keep Him, and God did not fail. Praise His Name for that also!

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 12:54:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone The word pause,was used intentionally to show how I could concede this point.If I reduce Jesus to being human only,as fully human as we,regardless of which nature he nay have possessed in regards to sin.Than I can fairly say that the possibility exist that he could have sinned. If on the other hand I choose to evaluate Jesus in his total essence to include his Divine nature,working not against but in unison with his human nature then I can easily say no he could not sin. this is dilema/mystery i see in the incarnation, both points are valid. quote: Imagine the question being reversed.Can a Christian who totally commits his life to God,is full of the Holy Spirit be kept from sin?If you say yes,then the answer concerning Jesus should be a little more clear. drmark will answer this differently than i would. this goes to a deeper personal question that i still havent answered for myself. that question is whether or not true perfect sinlessness can be accomplished by the creature or is that an attribute of God alone? will we obtain perfection like God, or will we be kept by God? i believe there is a differnce. one is done by our ability and the other is done by God, if you removed the power of God failure would ineviatbly ensue . but that is a different question for differnt day. quote: Jesus while human totally committed himself to the task at hand,and was full of the Spirit without measure as to be Divine.So is God able to see him through this commitment? was he kept by the power of God or did He do it on His own? i think the question is unanswerable

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 1:16:56 PM)
quote: drmark will answer this differently than i would. this goes to a deeper personal question that i still havent answered for myself. that question is whether or not true perfect sinlessness can be accomplished by the creature or is that an attribute of God alone? will we obtain perfection like God, or will we be kept by God? i believe there is a differnce. one is done by our ability and the other is done by God, if you removed the power of God failure would ineviatbly ensue . but that is a different question for differnt day. Aww, john_mark, am I that poor a communicator of Wesleyan/Holiness theology? There is NO WAY we can be "truly, perfectly sinless" in this lifetime. That is completely a divine attribute reserved for our glorified existence in Heaven. We may obtain perfection (the ability to not sin) and we may live in that perfection (being holy), but both come ONLY by God's sanctifying grace and His keeping grace. Grace is ALWAYS "done by God" - our miniscule part in grace is to appropriate and apply it. Without the power of God, sinless perfection is doomed! Now at what point would did I answer differently than you, john_mark? quote: was he kept by the power of God or did He do it on His own? i think the question is unanswerable What is wrong with BOTH as the answer? Isn't our sanctified holiness a partnership with God? Surely no one thinks God lives our lives for us, but He must live in, with, and through us.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 1:22:53 PM)
I appreciate you guys[;)]It has been an extremely fruitful discussion for me although difficult at times.I have you guys to thank for helping me to come into an awareness about God that I didn't have prior to this discussion. Thanks Mark,Steve

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 1:47:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark Aww, john_mark, am I that poor a communicator of Wesleyan/Holiness theology? There is NO WAY we can be "truly, perfectly sinless" in this lifetime. That is completely a divine attribute reserved for our glorified existence in Heaven. We may obtain perfection (the ability to not sin) and we may live in that perfection (being holy), but both come ONLY by God's sanctifying grace and His keeping grace. Grace is ALWAYS "done by God" - our miniscule part in grace is to appropriate and apply it. Without the power of God, sinless perfection is doomed! Now at what point would did I answer differently than you, john_mark? drmark, i was trying to be sure not to answer for you. i wasnt trying to place doubt on your theological viewpoint, it is just that i dont know enough about it to comment rightly about it. i am sorry if i came across that way. my response was based on the fact that i am not sure that we obtain sinlessness in heaven apart from being kept by God. i understand that in this life we walk by grace, but when we are glorified in heaven, in realtion to sin will we still walk by grace or will we have the power to be sinless in and of ourselves without grace? quote: was he kept by the power of God or did He do it on His own? i think the question is unanswerable What is wrong with BOTH as the answer? Isn't our sanctified holiness a partnership with God? Surely no one thinks God lives our lives for us, but He must live in, with, and through us. i agree that our holiness is a partnership with God. absent the parternship failure ensues, so it could not be done on our own. when we read the gospels we read of Jesus prayers to the Father so it appears that Jesus also needed that partnership for sucess. iow He didnt find everything He needed for sucess within Himself even though He was God. if sucess for Jesus depended on the Father, then the possibilty for failure exisited, or there would be no need for the partnership. sorry, i know i am rambling, but as we pursue this question deeper i am beginning to look at this in different ways.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 1:58:17 PM)
quote: drmark, i was trying to be sure not to answer for you. i wasnt trying to place doubt on your theological viewpoint, it is just that i dont know enough about it to comment rightly about it. i am sorry if i came across that way. Well, I'm not at all upset about it, j_m, so thanks for your concern. Apparently I'm able to see the similarities of our doctrinal positions on this matter much more readily than you are. Which is no big deal either way. Thanks for the (unneeded) apology. quote: when we are glorified in heaven, in realtion to sin will we still walk by grace or will we have the power to be sinless in and of ourselves without grace? My, what an intriguing question! Maybe it's worth a new thread, if you're interested. Just off the top of my head, why would we "need grace" in Heaven if everything and everyone is sinless and holy? Almost seems like Heaven is the epitome of perfected eternal grace! quote: sorry, i know i am rambling, but as we pursue this question deeper i am beginning to look at this in different ways. Yes, I am too, j_m. I'm beginning to wonder if this issue is closer to essential Christian doctrine than I earlier alluded to. I appreciate your input, Brother!

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 2:35:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark My, what an intriguing question! Maybe it's worth a new thread, if you're interested. Just off the top of my head, why would we "need grace" in Heaven if everything and everyone is sinless and holy? Almost seems like Heaven is the epitome of perfected eternal grace! i have to think about a new thread...this is not something that i have delveloped very deeply, it just keeps coming back into my thoughts. but as to your question, we see that adam sinned in the garden and we know that some of the angels who were in heaven sinned. when we live in heaven there will still be a distance between us and God, we will still be creatures and He will be self exisitant. isnt a jealousy of God the basis for adam's sin and the sin of the angels?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 2:42:01 PM)
Yes, self-centered carnality is the basis of prideful sin. I am doubtful this will exist in the New Jerusalem.

Prairiehiker -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 7:48:41 PM)
Guys, before you move on, please discuss this for me. How is Jesus' divine nature manifested then? If what Jesus was able to accomplish while down here on earth was due to His submission to God the father, then, doesn't that show that He's just a man, whom God the father chose to sustain and kept sinless through out His life?

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/6/2008 11:14:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Guys, before you move on, please discuss this for me. How is Jesus' divine nature manifested then? If what Jesus was able to accomplish while down here on earth was due to His submission to God the father, then, doesn't that show that He's just a man, whom God the father chose to sustain and kept sinless through out His life? It's a marriage.There is cooperation,leadership and submission.Two becoming one.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (5/7/2008 1:16:11 PM)
quote: How is Jesus' divine nature manifested then? Aren't you really asking if Jesus' divine nature was manifested during His 33 years of Incarnation?

bob97 -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/2/2008 11:48:48 AM)
Hi drmark... Colossians 1:15 ( KJV ) 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: If Christ were the very image of God I ask the question again...can God sin? Bob

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/2/2008 1:14:38 PM)
quote: If Christ were the very image of God I ask the question again...can God sin? And I answer the same way I did before! Christ does NOT equal God the Father. The orthodox understanding of the Trinity is "distinct but not separate" Persons. Since Christ was fully human, He had the same capability as Adam to willfully disobey. Otherwise, Jesus could not have been fully human! Otherwise, Jesus could not have been tempted as we are!

bob97 -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/2/2008 3:24:04 PM)
quote: And I answer the same way I did before! Christ does NOT equal God the Father. The orthodox understanding of the Trinity is "distinct but not separate" Persons. Since Christ was fully human, He had the same capability as Adam to willfully disobey. Otherwise, Jesus could not have been fully human! Otherwise, Jesus could not have been tempted as we are! I fully understand you viewpoint drmark but I have to fall back of what the scripture says about Christ and He is always equated to God Hebrews 1:8-9 ( KJV ) 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Hebrews 1:8 ( KJV ) 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. I'm of the view point...Christ could feel the temptations because of His human nature but would have been unable to summit because of His Godly nature. Bob

MrFribbles -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/2/2008 3:32:50 PM)
quote: I'm of the view point...Christ could feel the temptations because of His human nature but would have been unable to summit because of His Godly nature. I quite agree, bob. It makes the mind boggle to think of a universe where it would have been possible for God to sin. If He had, what would have happened? Everything that is would cease to be as we know it. A fundamental, intrinsic truth would have shifted. I can't even begin to imagine the cataclysm. By His very nature, God cannot sin. However, there is nothing intrinsic to human nature that says they must be capable of sin - if that were so, then we would cease to be human in heaven. I don't see where the necessity for Christ's possible sin comes from. In my mind, the incapability of sin does not limit the force of temptation by necessity. Furthermore, if Christ were really tempted in every way that I am, in a very literal sense, then He would have had to have sinned, since part of my experience with temptation has been the giving-in process. Perhaps it is not our understanding of Christ's divinity that needs rethinking, but His empathy with our temptations.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/2/2008 4:01:27 PM)
quote: If He had, what would have happened? Who knows and who cares? Jesus never sinned and, because He had the capacity to sin and I have the capacity to sin, I am able not to sin by His grace and power! quote: Furthermore, if Christ were really tempted in every way that I am, in a very literal sense, then He would have had to have sinned, since part of my experience with temptation has been the giving-in process. NO, NO, NO - free will means FREE WILL! Jesus chose not to sin. I choose not to sin, by His grace and power. None of this "have had to have sinned" nonsense. Sounds like Flip Wilson: "The Devil made me do it!" The Devil did not make Jesus disobey, did he?! quote: Perhaps it is not our understanding of Christ's divinity that needs rethinking, but His empathy with our temptations. Perhaps we all need a little less rethinking esoteric theology and little more standing on the promise that God can make us able not to sin.

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