RE: Could Jesus have sinned?

RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Could Jesus have sinned?

Jesus was God so he was infallible

48% (27)

Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned

44% (25)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible

1% (1)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible

3% (2)

I have no idea.

1% (1)

Total Votes : 56

(last vote on : 10/2/2008 9:16:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

1love1God1way -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 4:34:03 PM)
To me, "full humanity" does not mean the same humanity that I live in. Full humanity represents the type of humanity we were suppose to live in, before the fall and sin entered the world. Jesus lived, as said, as Adam was born. Free of a sin nature. That is what full humanity is. While it may be a whole other tangent, I would argue that we don't know what it is to be "fully human." Only Christ has shown us that by living without a desire to ever sin.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 4:43:19 PM)
quote: Jesus lived, as said, as Adam was born. Free of a sin nature. That is what full humanity is. So what made Jesus in His full humanity incapable of sinning that did not make Adam incapable in his? quote: While it may be a whole other tangent, I would argue that we don't know what it is to be "fully human." Only Christ has shown us that by living without a desire to ever sin. I've tried for 9 pages of posts to get a Scripture reference for this position. Where does the Bible state that the Incarnate Jesus had no desire to ever sin?

MrFribbles -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 4:44:52 PM)
quote: So what made Jesus in His full humanity incapable of sinning that did not make Adam incapable in his? His divinity. Adam was entirely innocent (not perfect - if he had been perfect, he would not have sinned), but he was not divine.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 6:07:37 PM)
quote: His divinity. Then some would say that is a position leaning dangerously toward heretical Docetism.

steve7150 -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 6:14:00 PM)
quote: This poll is about COULD he have sinned if He wanted to. Feel free to debate this if you'd like, but please pick the option that you agree with most. Of course he could have sinned since Hebrews says he became like us in every way and the bible says he was tempted. To say he was God overlooks that he got tired, he got thirsty and sleepy etc and Phil 2.7 says he emptied himself of his divinity before coming here as a man. All his miracles were done through the power of the Holy Spirit not because he was God.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 6:28:05 PM)
quote: and Phil 2.7 says he emptied himself of his divinity before coming here as a man. Oops, wrong understanding, steve. While I thoroughly agree with your analysis of Hebr 4:15, there is no Greek word translated "divinity" in Phil 2:7. The original passage literally translates: "but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,". Now if we go back to Jesus' statement in John 17:5, it seems clear that Paul is talking about Christ emptying Himself of His previous priveleged attribute of glory and honor in order to become the suffering human servant for the Atonement of our sins. Fully human, yet fully divine - that is orthodoxy, steve!

URForgiven -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 6:46:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way To me, "full humanity" does not mean the same humanity that I live in. Full humanity represents the type of humanity we were suppose to live in, before the fall and sin entered the world. Jesus lived, as said, as Adam was born. Free of a sin nature. That is what full humanity is. While it may be a whole other tangent, I would argue that we don't know what it is to be "fully human." Only Christ has shown us that by living without a desire to ever sin. We do know what it means to be fully human, and it is Jesus Christ. Peace

MrFribbles -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 8:19:07 PM)
quote: Then some would say that is a position leaning dangerously toward heretical Docetism. If they took that one phrase of mine and used it completely out of context, yes, it might be. I don't deny the genuine physical nature of Christ in any way, that He was genuinely human, that He genuinely died, etc. I just assert that, because He was born without a sin nature, and because of His simultaneous and equal deity, He could not have sinned.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 8:29:30 PM)
quote: I just assert that, because He was born without a sin nature, and because of His simultaneous and equal deity, He could not have sinned. In light of Phil 2:6-8, how do you assert the existence of "His simultaneous and equal deity" while incarnate?

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 9:46:27 PM)
Isn't it impossible for God to lie?How is it impossible for him to lie,but possible for him to sin?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 10:16:59 PM)
How would you (or I) know if God is lying?

MrFribbles -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/19/2008 11:54:14 PM)
quote: In light of Phil 2:6-8, how do you assert the existence of "His simultaneous and equal deity" while incarnate? Can God cease to be God? It says Christ humbled Himself. That doesn't mean He turned off His "Godness" while on earth. I means He chose to limit Himself. Philippians 2:6-8 has to do with servanthood, not a study of Christ while on earth in relation to His divine/human nature.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 12:55:00 AM)
quote: I don't deny the genuine physical nature of Christ in any way, that He was genuinely human, that He genuinely died, etc. So why deny that He was genuinely tempted? quote: Can God cease to be God? Is Jesus the Father? - your question is based on a faulty assumption. The real question should be: "Did the divine nature of God always supercede the human nature of Incarnate Jesus? According the the article I linked in post #200, this controversy was not satisfactorily settled by theologians much brighter than us! quote: It says Christ humbled Himself. That doesn't mean He turned off His "Godness" while on earth. I means He chose to limit Himself. I'm glad you can tell the difference, MrF. It sure seems to me that Christ chose to limit Himself by and during the Incarnation. While I may not call it "turned off his Godness", the end result is the same. The Incarnate Christ was not identically equal to God the Father which seems to be the only argument posited on your side that I have seen.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 8:46:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark How would you (or I) know if God is lying? God can't lie,so what is there to know?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 9:21:37 AM)
quote: God can't lie,so what is there to know? I see your logic, sunofone. Jesus cannot sin, so what is there to tempt Him? Well, at least you're consistent!

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 9:37:59 AM)
Here's the point of my question.Hebrews chp 6 speaks to the certainty of God's promise. When God made his promise to Abraham, he swore by himself,since there was no one greater to swear by. Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised,he confirmed it with an oath.God did this so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie. God's promises are therefore certain,not hanging in the balance.Jesus became a priest on an oath when God said to him:The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind:You are a priest forever. God declared prior to Jesus arrival on earth that The time is coming when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Because of this oath Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.Jesus arrival on earth was in response to God's promise,a promise which is certain and unchangeable. The promise of a new covenant rested on the finished work of Jesus.That is that the blood of Christ,who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God. Therefore when Christ came into the world,he said Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire but a body you prepared for me. Then I said,Here I am-it is written about me in the scroll-I have come to do your will O God. It was God's will will that Jesus come as the spotless unblemished lamb,and that he remain that way.And by that will,we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. God has chosen that by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. To say Jesus could have sinned, is to make God a liar and totally unreliable to follow through on his promises.How could God promise a new and better covenant,of which Jesus would be the mediator.If Jesus could fail? Jesus failure,would have been God's failure,and God can't lie.The devil tried to convince us in the garden that God was a liar.I guess some things never change. One is that God can not lie,the other is that the devil can't tell the truth.Jesus couldn't sin because to do so would have resulted in his failure to be our High Priest which God beforehand declared him to be. The promise of a new covenant would have been nullified,because a will is in force only when someone has died.The new covenant just as the first was put into effect with blood. So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people.This was the plan,I.E.the will of God.There is no way he could have failed,and sinning would have been equal to failure.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 9:47:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: God can't lie,so what is there to know? I see your logic, sunofone. Jesus cannot sin, so what is there to tempt Him? Well, at least you're consistent! To tempt is to test.There is nothing wrong in our or Jesus being tested.To be tested does not of necessity leave success hanging in the balance.Testing merely proves where you are. The testing of Christ proved the reliability of God. It proved that through the eternal Spirit Jesus the man could live a sinless life thus qualifying himself to be our unblemished spotless sacrifice. The test at no time held any hope or expectation that Jesus the Son of God would have sinned.Imagine that,Jesus comes here to earth on a oath from God to do his will and fails? You can believe that if you want,but don't ever try to convince me of it.The devil is a liar.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 10:44:16 AM)
quote: To tempt is to test I have seen this argument several times on this lengthy thread and my response is - so what?! Is it truly a test if one cannot fail? Is it truly a choice if one cannot choose? Is it truly obedience if one cannot disobey? The Greek verb peirazo or noun peirasmos is variously translated "tempt" or "test" throughout the NT. If God chose to inpire the same word in Matthew 4:1 as He did in 1 Cor 10:13, Hebr 2:18 and Hebr 4:15, then temptation requires the possibility of succumbing to it. quote: The test at no time held any hope or expectation that Jesus the Son of God would have sinned.Imagine that,Jesus comes here to earth on a oath from God to do his will and fails? I do not hold any hope or expectation that I will sin today, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. Imagine that, Jesus the Son of God comes here to earth and demonstrates His ability to not sin, by the grace of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit, so that I may also have that very same ability when I fully submit my will to God's Will. quote: You can believe that if you want,but don't ever try to convince me of it.The devil is a liar. It would be easy (and carnal) for me to read malicious intent into this post. I will instead just end my discussion by reminding you that some of us take immeasurable comfort in knowing that God's Word is true - Jesus was tempted in every way we are, yet He did not sin so that I do not have to sin!

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 12:11:43 PM)
Let me put your mind to rest as to the malicious intent of my statement the devil is a liar. I believe that it is satan who attempts to distort the truthfulness of God. I asked a simple question in regards to God not being able to lie,in which you replied how can we know if God is telling a lie. This very question was put to Eve in the garden. You my friend are not satan,that job is already taken;however satan is constantly at work trying to deceive us all.To hold onto the notion that Jesus could sin in order to hold out some false hope that you too can be sinless is to be deceived. If we claim to be without sin,we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.Our sinlessness is found in the finished work of Jesus.We are sinless without effort,we forsake,and are released from the habitual practice of sin because we are born of God. We are to rest,that is cease from our own work and accept Jesus perfection as our own.When we die,and live to Christ.It is no longer ourselves independently striving to become or remain sinless,but Christ on the inside doing the work. Jesus couldn't sin and you can't be sinless.That is in your own effort no matter how hard you try,or really want too.Unlike Jesus we are all sinners,saved by grace. Although declared righteous because of our positional favor, which Christ gave us.In our flesh we yet remain sinful which is why we have an advocate with the Father,Jesus Christ the righteous one, our perfect Saviour.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 12:19:40 PM)
quote: Although declared righteous because of our positional favor, which Christ gave us.In our flesh we yet remain sinful which is why we have an advocate with the Father,Jesus Christ the righteous one, our perfect Saviour. We are not only declared righteous, we are made righteous when the sinful nature is crucified. Jesus Christ the righteous one, our perfect Saviour, is more than Advocate - He may become our Righteousness on this earth because He never sinned when tempted on this earth!

MrFribbles -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 1:49:08 PM)
quote: So why deny that He was genuinely tempted? Just because we have different ideas of what constitutes a genuine temptation doesn't mean I deny His temptation. quote: Is Jesus the Father? - your question is based on a faulty assumption. The real question should be: "Did the divine nature of God always supercede the human nature of Incarnate Jesus? Neither nature superceded the other! Jesus is God. He was God while on this earth. He never lost His Godhead and then "got it back" later. And for that reason, I believe He could not have sinned. quote: It sure seems to me that Christ chose to limit Himself by and during the Incarnation. While I may not call it "turned off his Godness", the end result is the same. Then what would you call it? If Jesus could remove enough deity from Himself to be capable of sin, then what aspect of deity was left in Him? quote: The Incarnate Christ was not identically equal to God the Father which seems to be the only argument posited on your side that I have seen. Where have I ever claimed that God the Son and God the Father are identical? Equal, surely, but never identical.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 2:18:05 PM)
quote: If Jesus could remove enough deity from Himself to be capable of sin, then what aspect of deity was left in Him? You tell me then, MrF. What "aspect of deity" other than impeccability do you consider the Incarnate Jesus to have left in Him? Why do you choose the inability to sin over omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omni-anything else?

steve7150 -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 3:28:42 PM)
quote: it seems clear that Paul is talking about Christ emptying Himself of His previous priveleged attribute of glory and honor in order to become the suffering human servant for the Atonement of our sins. Fully human, yet fully divine - that is orthodoxy, steve! drmark, If Jesus did'nt empty himself of his divinity how could he have really been tempted to sin and how could he have become like us? If he retained his divinity why does Acts say all of his miracles were done through the power of the Holy Spirit and only performed after he was baptized in the Holy Spirit. The word "glory" may be a more encompassing word then seems first apparent.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 3:50:54 PM)
quote: drmark, If Jesus did'nt empty himself of his divinity how could he have really been tempted to sin and how could he have become like us? I really don't know, steve, since the Incarnation is far beyond my feeble mind to comprehend. I just know what the Bible says - fully human and fully divine. Let's see if MrF's answer to my question in post #222 sheds some light on what it means to "empty Himself" since he is the proponent for impeccability, not me.

MrFribbles -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (9/20/2008 4:17:05 PM)
quote: You tell me then, MrF. What "aspect of deity" other than impeccability do you consider the Incarnate Jesus to have left in Him? Why do you choose the inability to sin over omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omni-anything else? I believe Jesus retained His omnipotence - otherwise, His statement about having the ability to call down 12 legions of angels would have been an empty one. Omnipresence, well, I'm still mulling that attribute as a whole over, so I can't comment on that. Omniscience is a tricky one. Clearly, Jesus had a greater knowledge than any normal human did. He knew things about people that He couldn't have known through normal means (the woman at the well is a fine example of this). The one tricky part here is that there were some things Jesus didn't know - the one that comes to mind is when He will be coming back, which He says only the Father knows. That's a concept that has always perplexed me. Other aspects would be a perfect love. Christ loved everyone He met - though He certainly did not love all of their actions. Perfect justice, as well. Christ dealt fairly and justly with all. Perfect wisdom - there was no question His enemies could throw at Him that He did not have the perfect answer for, and no question His followers could ask/situation His followers could be in that He could not turn into a teaching situation. That's what I've got off the top of my head. What aspects of divinity did Christ possess during His time on earth in your view?

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