RE: christian culture (Full Version)

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Brachah -> RE: christian culture (4/30/2008 11:42:48 PM)

"in order for a society to function there has to be a willingness by a large majority of citizens to cooperate and act responsibly or civilization would just fall apart."

yesterday i read this somewhere.
IMO, we need more wisdom than impulse to implement the above idea.



RJR_fan -> RE: christian culture (5/2/2008 6:27:05 AM)

quote:

in order for a society to function there has to be a willingness by a large majority of citizens to cooperate and act responsibly or civilization would just fall apart.


A friend of mine was born in one of the tribal areas of Myanmar. Perhaps 500 people speak his native language. "You walk five miles down the road, and no one understands you any more!" he explained.

Fierce tribalism -> inability to cooperate -> poverty.



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/2/2008 11:44:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brachah

"in order for a society to function there has to be a willingness by a large majority of citizens to cooperate and act responsibly or civilization would just fall apart."

yesterday i read this somewhere.
IMO, we need more wisdom than impulse to implement the above idea.


It is an honor to read words from a Christian living in a nation which is hostile to Christianity.
I am afraid that my shallow words learned in a free religion and speech world may be too shallow to be scooped, but for the sake of searching for depth, let me pour in what little I have.

The western culture seen as the Christian culture by you as a Christian surrounded by none-Christian culture may not be exactly the same as one of a true Christian living in that culture, like many living in the USA or Europe.
WE Christians living in the USA don’t feel like the USA is a Christian nation like many other non-Christian national think.
We, just like you, are surrounded by the non-Christian culture posed as ‘Christian’, and feel like strangers in a strange nation.
How about that?

Home-schooling is just one of the signs of our living in a non-Christian nation.
If you turn TV on to watch American TV drama or shows, you can tell a lot about the American culture that is not of Christian culture.

The Majority in the USA is not true Christians, maybe nominal.
If true Christians, they won’t agree to legalize abortion, gay marriage, gambling, and many other things against the teachings of the Bible.

Now, if we are to cooperate with the large majority in order to keep the nation not to fall apart, we have to denounce our faith- that is for sure.
In fact, that is what many good willed Christians do, to go along.
You may have a hostile government against your faith, but we have a very friendly devil seducing us away from our faith, inch by inch, in the name of humanity, goodness, unity, the national flag, or simply for the good of the society.

In order for a society to function, the law and order is enough, because the law does not care about willingness but obedience.
As long as there is the law and the enforcement, a society will function.

But, in order for the society of God to function, it takes more than the law and order- that you should know if you truly understand the Christianity.

Judaism is more about the law because it is based on the Law of Moses and all other by-laws and religious ceremonies and cultures.
However, the Old Testament on which Judaism is based is NOT all about the LAW which can bring a nation to a superficial unity but not to the unity of body, mind and soul.
OT points to God who alone can make a society function, not by the law alone but love expressed in various ways.

Once you said that Judaism is about humanism, but what religion is not about humanism and about humanity in relation with God as the Creator?
If a religion is not for humanity, what good is it?
Even our God became a human to save and serve humanity from destruction.
God of Abraham is the first and most genuine humanist.

The only problem with humanism is the humanism without God.
And the culture developed by humanity, of humanity and for humanity alone without God is the culture that does not cultivate humanity for better but worse, because humanity has no answer for the humanity itself, without God.

American culture, not Christian culture, is cultivating humanity to root God out of the American life, leaning toward socialism which is not far removed from the cousin Communism.
Communism is ruled by a group of people, so is Democracy, by majority of people.
Guess who is the majority?


Christianity is to be ruled by God the Son and His Spirit- only religion, system or ism that is not ruled by people.
Guess who is against?
People, if not ‘self’.

What kind of wisdom can rule out people from the very life of people?



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/3/2008 1:10:45 AM)

tks for ur post. i understand it fully.

let's return back to sth called christian peace. what do u prefer, discuss it here, or we open another thread?

peace is a very subtle balance to tell us many wisdoms we shud follow.



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/3/2008 8:40:42 AM)

Shalom, peace, is referred to as the only vessel God claims to contain His bountiful blessing (see Mishna, Uktzin 3:12), and it was therefore specifically Aaron who would complete the dedication of the Tabernacle with the finishing touch of bringing shalom -- and thus accompanying blessing -- to everyone else's contributions.
(jesus christ is our high priest)

And, naturally, who is more suitable for this honorable task of bringing shalom into God's "bayit," God's home, than Aaron the High Priest, the quintessential "o'heiv shalom ve'rodeif shalom," lover and pursuer of peace (Pirkei Avot, 1:12).
(jesus christ is the prince of peace)

The paradigm of ultimate closeness in our physical world is the holy union of man and wife, the merging of ish and isha, represented by the joining of two Hebrew words each containing within it the Hebrew word aish meaning fire. To produce offspring, they need the third "partner" in creation, God -- the most instrumental of them all- Who is represented by the additional letters "yud" and "hei" (that together comprise one of God's many names) added respectively to the Hebrew labels for man and woman.
(nothing has any meaning as we leave God out)

The Friday night candles representing shalom bayit have much in common with the lights of Chanuka, the ones that echoed the original deep-felt connection between God and us first introduced in the Tabernacle of the wilderness.
(tabernacle - christians, churches vs wilderness - the secular world)

They all tap into the realm of shalom, the state of achieving complete unity with the God Who gave us the precious gift of Shabbat and Who graciously gave us the Tabernacle and subsequent two Temples as well. And one who heeds them both merits having children, true Torah sages who personify the principles of God and serve to increase shalom in the world.
(torah sages - bible scholars. personify n increase shalom in the world: the light to the world)

The only way we can rest assured that our neirot, our flames, our burning souls, can be carefully guarded by God, is to ensure that we heed the calls of our actual candles and flames, the cries and pleas for preserving shalom in our homes, in our communities, and in our own mini sanctuaries. Only then will the light of the Temple's Menora flicker and shine once again as we all return to bask in the warmth and glory of the full-fledged closeness between us and God that only a third Temple can really provide.
(only when we have a close relation with God, that He wl watchover n guard our souls n spirits. human need return to God, it all starts with ourselves.)

http://www.aish.com/chanukahthemes/chanukahthemesdefault/Rekindling_the_Sparks_of_Peace.asp



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/3/2008 9:22:31 AM)

growth thru teaching:

Until you share an idea, it remains but a hazy notion in your imagination. Transmitting the idea to others makes it real. You've taken it out of potential and made it a reality.

You thought you knew, but when you tried to teach it, you found out otherwise. Having to explain an idea to others forces you to clarify it for yourself.

Think back to growth experiences that changed you. Perhaps something made you more mature. Or enabled you to take disappointments better. Or to be more independent, or more tolerant of others. If the memory has stuck with you, then it's worth sharing with others.

When you teach, don't recite a manifesto. dont give over information with fire and brimstone, without paying attention to what your audience is feeling. dont instruct: "I'm the authority...I'll straighten you out... Accept what I say... Don't question... Park your mind... Listen to me... Obey me!"

dont be a demigod, getting people excited and overwhelmed and moving them with an emotional sway. That's not teaching. That's brainwashing.

Teaching is communicating to an independent human the clarity of a concept. To teach is to get others to see and understand it on their own terms. To enable another to get in touch with what he already knows - and re-discover it on his own.

Give your audience enough space to weigh the evidence and make his own decision. Be confident that truth will prevail. Otherwise you're just forcing it down his throat.

finally Work through the stages of bringing people to actual implementation. Teaching others contributes to the betterment of the world. actions speaks louder than words.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/48ways/Way_12_Growth_Through_Teaching.asp

actually this article enlightens me a lot. it best explains the word teaching or preaching or reaching which is not blind. among the 3 words i prefer teaching which is the best.

the best enlightenment is actually we need to choose the person with whom we shud communicate or teach. there are people who are absolutely unteachable, too proud, rebellious, n violent. Showing compassion to those who seek to hurt you isn't compassion at all. It's stupidity.



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/3/2008 10:53:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brachah

tks for ur post. i understand it fully.

let's return back to sth called christian peace. what do u prefer, discuss it here, or we open another thread?

peace is a very subtle balance to tell us many wisdoms we shud follow.


As I mentioned earlier, my thought has only a few inch deep and is in need of ‘deepening’, but am losing my hope to be ‘deep’ because of jumping and running in the shallow water to cover as broad knowledge as possible- that certainly is a wisdom of not so deep.
By jumping all over you can get a lot of low hanging fruits but not the one hanging high.

Anyway, anywhere we go or whatever we touch, God is there for us to be explored.
If you talk about humanity, you are talking about humanity made by God.
If you talk about peace, you are talking about a spiritual essence of God’s image from which we are made of.

Peace in the Bible and of the Bible is to come only to a person being right with God.

(I just touched a weighty matter by making a simple statement which represents a tip of an iceberg, in need of being exposed more to get the hang of it.)

As you know, as a Christian, no one can enjoy a true peace with the wrath of God overhead.
So, let’s go from there.

The wrath of God comes to those who break the laws of God.
We call, ‘sinners’.

Being right with God can be either ‘self righteous’, which comes by self right standing, or ‘righteous of God’, which comes by His right standing.

Self right is whatever self thinks is right.
In this, self becomes the judge who places own right weight on the right side of the justice scale to weigh the matter on the left.
Even though the law of God is being used as the right weight, the interpretation of the law or the outcome reading is done by the self judge, ending in ‘all self verdict’.

I know an interesting Chinese letter meaning ‘righteousness’.
It has two parts, one over the other like 1/1, with own meaning respectively.
The top part means ‘lamb’ and the bottom part, ‘myself’.
According to this Chinese letter for righteousness, one can be righteous when self is being placed under the lamb.

Another interesting thing about the righteous in Chinese is that there is a Chinese word for ‘right’ and this word is not placed on top of ‘me’ to make me righteous- doing right does not make me righteous.
I wish I could show these letters here but I can’t.

In order to talk about the true peace, we need to get to the righteousness of God along the way, if you really want to get into the true peace promised in the Bible, the true wisdom of God.



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/3/2008 11:07:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brachah

growth thru teaching:

actually this article enlightens me a lot. it best explains the word teaching or preaching or reaching which is not blind. among the 3 words i prefer teaching which is the best.

the best enlightenment is actually we need to choose the person with whom we shud communicate or teach. there are people who are absolutely unteachable, too proud, rebellious, n violent. Showing compassion to those who seek to hurt you isn't compassion at all. It's stupidity.


You seem to be into the world of non-biblical wisdom.

According to the Bible, no one can be enlightened to see the kingdom of God, without born again.
Even a great Jewish teacher didn't get that.
How can you teach something you don't see or know about?

If you are not born again, you can't see, much less get into the thing you don't see.

If you are not born again, you are still dead.
How can you teach a dead to be alive and get enlightened to grow?

How can you fight against devils with the knowledge of the dead?



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/3/2008 12:52:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kingdust

You seem to be into the world of non-biblical wisdom.

According to the Bible, no one can be enlightened to see the kingdom of God, without born again.
Even a great Jewish teacher didn't get that.
How can you teach something you don't see or know about?

If you are not born again, you can't see, much less get into the thing you don't see.

If you are not born again, you are still dead.
How can you teach a dead to be alive and get enlightened to grow?

How can you fight against devils with the knowledge of the dead?


anyway i am not much interested in argument. people speak from different point of view.
this is christian forum, so what u said is best understood n supported here.
imagine if u r posting all these in a jewish forum, what happen?

why i start this thread? 1 major purpose is to expand our perspectives as christians to a broader range of judeo-christian culture or even western culture or even world contemporary culture.
in another word, it has some focus on reaching or just communication to the "outside" world.

finally, i can learn n grow n be a student of people christian or not, whether they are "dead" or "alive". meantime, i am sure they learn from me too.

who judge who is dead or alive? God alone is capable to do so. (Only on the Last Day, at the great white throne judgment will God pronounce eternal judgment on a person)



RJR_fan -> RE: christian culture (5/4/2008 6:38:50 AM)

quote:

finally, i can learn n grow n be a student of people christian or not, whether they are "dead" or "alive". meantime, i am sure they learn from me too.


Good answer to an abusive challenge. I'm reading a book about traits in American Christianity that reduce our credibility. We (American Protestants) have a reputation for being "know-it-alls" who hold our unbelieving neighbors in contempt, and treat them as people who are not worth talking with, or listening to. We hit them on the head with a Bible, deliver our little set-piece of bundled cliches, and smugly move along, leaving rejection and desolation in our wake.

In this country, it takes real work to cultivate friendships with unbelievers. They know us too well, since so many unbelievers grew up in church. They've seen what American Protestant Christianity has to offer, and decided they didn't want it.

This is a crying shame, since the message of the Gospel is so wonderful. The messenger, our "Christian" subculture, discredits the message.

A friend of mine served as a professional in your country for several years. When he came back to the USA, he was desperately lonely. In China, people were involved in one another's lives. If you had to move, a dozen people showed up to help, without being asked. And they were not Christians, just neighbors. When a young married couple had an argument on a bus, the other passengers felt compelled to intervene, to try to make peace -- and even dragged this blond foreigner into the conversation!

Every nation has something precious to bring to the (Lord's) table. How can we cultivate, nurture, and encourage that which God has invested in those around us? How can we treat our neighbors as friends, rather than just as propaganda targets?



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/4/2008 7:48:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brachah
finally, i can learn n grow n be a student of people christian or not, whether they are "dead" or "alive". meantime, i am sure they learn from me too.

who judge who is dead or alive? God alone is capable to do so. (Only on the Last Day, at the great white throne judgment will God pronounce eternal judgment on a person)


Yes, you can learn the general truth from people, Christian or none-Christian, but you cannot learn the truth of the kingdom of God which you cannot see if you are not born again.

Yes, God alone is capable to make a dead alive.
But, NO, not at the final day.
According to the Bible, one can be born again, have a new life, before or without physical death.

When I said, ‘How can you teach a dead to be alive and get enlightened to grow?’, I meant those who are not born again but taught to be enlightened and grow, no more no less.

Born again is not a Christian culture but a Christian faith, even the very heart of it.

You might not pay attention to the Chinese letter for ‘righteousness’ which depicts ‘lamb’ over ‘self’, but that letter explains the core faith of Christianity.
Only under the Lamb of God, we Christians can be righteous, peaceful, alive, enlightened, being feed, grown, and become anything God plans to be.

Only under the Lamb of God, any and everything has value, meaning or purpose for our Christian living, here or there or beyond.

Again, the Lamb over me is not a Christian culture but the core Christian faith.
Any other thing over me is considered to be dung, according to the Bible which outlines our faith.

I am not arguing but stating my faith according to the Bible.
I am not against your learning from all kinds of faith in order to reach out for them.
As long as you are enlightened by the Spirit of God, born again and grown by Him and Him being over you, I have nothing to stop what you are doing.

However, if you are not led by the Spirit of God, which is not a Christian culture but another core faith, you are stepping out of the Christian faith into human culture- inspired and led by own good spirit.



RJR_fan -> RE: christian culture (5/4/2008 4:25:58 PM)

quote:

Again, the Lamb over me is not a Christian culture but the core Christian faith. Any other thing over me is considered to be dung, according to the Bible which outlines our faith.


The faith you are proclaiming sounds gnostic, not Biblical. A form of emotional onanism, rather than the world-conquering message of the great King. When someone from a society in transition asks thoughtful questions about what to do next, suggesting that she turn away from the world around her to seek a gnicer gnosis is a rubbishy non-answer.

A faith without external expression is without a core. The God of the Bible made the world, and all it contains. He has something to say about the world, and all it contains. So should we. A "Christianity" restricted to personal piety is something less than Biblical faith.

The world is bigger than the inside of one's head. Jesus is Lord, not guru.



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/4/2008 11:33:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RJR_fan

quote:

Again, the Lamb over me is not a Christian culture but the core Christian faith. Any other thing over me is considered to be dung, according to the Bible which outlines our faith.


The faith you are proclaiming sounds gnostic, not Biblical. A form of emotional onanism, rather than the world-conquering message of the great King. When someone from a society in transition asks thoughtful questions about what to do next, suggesting that she turn away from the world around her to seek a gnicer gnosis is a rubbishy non-answer.

A faith without external expression is without a core. The God of the Bible made the world, and all it contains. He has something to say about the world, and all it contains. So should we. A "Christianity" restricted to personal piety is something less than Biblical faith.

The world is bigger than the inside of one's head. Jesus is Lord, not guru.


i see the God of abraham of isaac of jocob in YOU!

JESUS's 1st sermon on earth:
luke 4.18-19
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

He’s on a spiritual mission which would have cosmic implications – in Him, the Today had come.

Jesus had come to fulfil the word of God, explain it in all its fullness and make it relevant for the world.
Just as we too have a responsibility to explain the word of God, make it relevant for the world.
But if we believe that God’s word is relevant to our society, we need to make sure that we’re making it relevant today.

Luke has strong theology of the Holy Spirit as we’ll see in the coming year, a strong theology of a Holy Spirit who is with us to empower us in all we do or say.

Many people feel that the world is a nasty, hopeless place to be.
Jesus, filled with the power of the Spirit, showed that there was hope and fulfilment in the words of God.
Today, we are called to do the same.



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/5/2008 10:04:24 AM)

i am reading an email fm CW pastors resources:

"Most churches need to change because they're showing little or no statistical growth (numerical, spiritual or otherwise) and minimal impact on the surrounding culture. Too many are struggling just to keep their doors open, and yet they tend to keep replaying what they did "last year." Instead of looking for a breakthrough, churches across the country are slowly dying because too many tend to value tradition over expanding God's reach.

Innovation or death? Too many churches choose death over innovation. The choice we make today will impact the church of our children.

On a more serious note, American churches have not suffered-- for the most part--the pain experienced by many churches around the world. The idea of an underground church, a persecuted church or even a church with modern-day martyrs is largely non-existent in North America. Other countries generate news such as, "400 churches closed! Pastors killed and imprisoned!" Instead, American churches are moving in the sad direction of, "400 churches closed because communities don't want them around!"

What America needs today is a culture-impacting revival. Today, the only continent where Christianity is not growing is North America. That's a fact we dare not ignore."

it doesnt mean u have to change your christian principles, but do sth to change your effectiveness...



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/5/2008 10:31:47 AM)

quote:

The faith you are proclaiming sounds gnostic, not Biblical. A form of emotional onanism, rather than the world-conquering message of the great King. When someone from a society in transition asks thoughtful questions about what to do next, suggesting that she turn away from the world around her to seek a gnicer gnosis is a rubbishy non-answer.


My faith Gnosticism?
Your sound byte sounds like a bite to me- that is nonetheless my subjective feeling that can’t bound nobody absolutely true though.

If I really sounded like one, I guess I am the only one to blame.
Did I really sound like one?
Am I really a Gnostic?
Should I examine myself first to see if I am one or my statement of faith?

I know myself is not one, so, I guess my statement of faith, which in fact is nothing more than a metaphor used to picture a self under a lamb, covered by the Lamb’s skin if you will, in order to depict a Christian faith, using the Chinese letter for ‘righteousness’, which I assume that you already know about it because the way you bring Gnosticism out of ‘lamb over me’.

Here is a definition of Gnosticism from Wikipedia.
Compare my faith to Gnostic-faith to see if I am really the one you assumed.
quote:

Gnosticism (Greek: γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge) refers to a diverse, syncretistic religious movement consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god, the demiurge, who is frequently identified with the Abrahamic God.

In order to free oneself from the inferior material world, one needs gnosis, or esoteric spiritual knowledge available to all through direct experience or knowledge (gnosis) of God…

The gnostic gospels were named after the Greek word gnosis which means "knowledge" and is often used in Greek philosophy in a manner more consistent with the English "enlightenment".
The name "Christian gnostics" came to represent a segment of the Early Christian community who believed that salvation lay not in merely worshipping Christ, but in psychic or pneumatic souls learning to free themselves from the material world via the revelation.
According to this tradition, the answers to spiritual questions are to be found within not without.
Some scholars have suggested that gnosticism blends teachings like those attributed to Jesus Christ with teachings found in Eastern traditions…


Do I seek enlightenment from the knowledge of the world, eastern or western?
Did I suggest to put any other knowledge, other than the Lamb, over me to cover over my nakedness?

In my mind picture, I had Jesus as the head of a body of Christian believers, just like Paul said.
Again, just like Paul said, I stated that any and everything other than the Lamb over me is considered as ‘dung’.

It all started from the Chinese letter for righteousness, lamb over me, to depict a Christian faith in how a Christian can acquire righteousness.
Without going any deeper on the subject, the OP wants to talk about peace, and again I stuck to the letter to describe peace in Christian faith- peace acquired by being right with God.
Again, the OP ran to a Jewish site to get enlightenment, without further discussion of peace in Christian faith.
That is when I pull out a time out card of non-biblical wisdom.

And, here you are, jumping to conclusion of Gnosticism out of ‘lamb over me’ metaphor cooking pan.
What you did was not a Christian custom but a mere humanistic custom in which I am a chief also, like self over self, meaning ‘full of self’.
Like you did, I jumped and pulled out the yellow violation card of non-biblical wisdom at a hint of Jewish enlightenment.

I can take Gnosticism, but Onanism?
If possible, please let this cup of Onanism pass by me; I can’t drink it.

quote:

A faith without external expression is without a core. The God of the Bible made the world, and all it contains. He has something to say about the world, and all it contains. So should we..


Yes, I agree that God made the world, but not the humanistic customs or culture.
Surely He has something to say about the world, compressed in 66 books He wrote and unzipped only when God the Spirit reveals, unlike the knowledge of the world.
If you are not born again, you can’t even see, much less to get into the kingdom knowledge in depth.

As you cannot read my mind but only your mind about how you feel about my metaphor of ‘lamb over self’, you can’t read the mind of God even if you have the open Bible- that is a Christian faith, not a Christian culture developed by people.

Tell me if I am being Gnostic about that.

quote:

A "Christianity" restricted to personal piety is something less than Biblical faith
The world is bigger than the inside of one's head. Jesus is Lord, not guru.


No doubt the world is a lot bigger than my small head.
Please tell me how you can put the big world into my small scull.
By expanding my knowledge tank, by mastering eastern and western cultures and customs, philosophies and theories and all that enlightenments, can I make the world compressed into my tiny scull?

Also please tell me how you can make me not to be restricted to a personal piety?
Isn’t self all I can have within self small skull?
Can you be free from your personal conviction type of piety?

How can you say that you don’t have that?
Is it a Christian faith or culture, or simply humanistic?

At least, you said the same thing I said, though different method;
You said, Jesus is the Lord, and I said, the Lamb over me.



RJR_fan -> RE: christian culture (5/5/2008 10:09:54 PM)

quote:

Also please tell me how you can make me not to be restricted to a personal piety?


Let me quote a beloved mentor, the last century's profoundest scholar in the area of Christian social order:

quote:

Whenever men have placed a false emphasis on
spirituality, the result has been a rise of occultism,
Satanism, and mental disorders. Remember, Satan as a
purely spiritual being is very happy to have people
emphasize the spiritual rather than the holy, because
he is then able to take advantage of them.

The glory of our faith is that it is so practical. It
is concerned with the whole man, body and soul, and
the way of sanctification is mindful of the whole man.
Man’s whole being was involved in the Fall, not merely
his body, and man’s whole being is redeemed by Christ,
not merely his spirit. It is the whole man who is
destined for the general resurrection and the new
creation, and it is therefore to the whole man that
all of Scripture speaks. The devil is more spiritual
than any of us, but he is not holy. Our calling is to
“holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord”
(Heb. 12:14).


Holy people find ways to improve the world around them. "Spiritual" people sit smugly in the reek of their own self-perceived, self-centered, experiential piety. Eph. 2:8,9 tell us how to be saved. Eph. 2:10 tells us why we are saved. Our greatest joy is to be in on what God is up to. And even as the Father is at work, so are we. It is the quality of our work that makes our faith visible.

And a fallen world is filled with opportunities to glory God by making a difference. "Culture is religion externalized," Henry Van Til wrote. And yes, Christian cultures do exist, in many different forms. A faith without an external expression is nothing more than gnosis, and self deception.

Surely, we must agree, our Lord deserves better!



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/6/2008 8:23:41 AM)

quote:

Holy people find ways to improve the world around them. "Spiritual" people sit smugly in the reek of their own self-perceived, self-centered, experiential piety. Eph. 2:8,9 tell us how to be saved. Eph. 2:10 tells us why we are saved. Our greatest joy is to be in on what God is up to. And even as the Father is at work, so are we. It is the quality of our work that makes our faith visible.


Holy or spiritual person, which one is me?
I guess I am a spiritual person sitting and doing nothing but talking like Gnostic one according to your personal preference type piety…
Is that why you likened me as a sounding–like one of a Gnostic clan?

Unfortunately, I am not very spiritual except sounding like one.
I just like to think and talk about the Bible.
Maybe one of these days I can go out and teach people how to improve their life, but not now when I am not holy nor spirit full yet.

Can I be holy?
Can you be holy, really?
So, that only holy thought, mind, talk and deed can come out of your self?
Is calling me ‘Gnostic’ a holy verdict?
(If it is, I gotta comply with your calling.)

Being a holy person like Pope or priests, to me, is a Christian culture- man made- rather than a Christian faith.
If you confess to be a sinner and sins, how can you be a sinless holy person?

I asked you to tell me how to get out of a personal piety and you tell me to be holy like a profoundest scholar you know.
Yes, I agree to honor those Christian heroes, and have no opposition to imitate them, but man over man is not Christian faith but culture, because the Bible says that our head is to be Christ.

Actually, my point was that I can’t get out of my personal piety as long as it has something to do with self conviction, selfish or non-selfish.
Mine is mine, once ‘I’ hold whatever in ‘me’.
I can’t get away from me and my personal value, view, interpretation, preference, conviction, belief, etc.
Can you?

quote:

And a fallen world is filled with opportunities to glory God by making a difference. "Culture is religion externalized," Henry Van Til wrote. And yes, Christian cultures do exist, in many different forms. A faith without an external expression is nothing more than gnosis, and self deception. Surely, we must agree, our Lord deserves better!


I agree and agree, except the gnosis part which is not preferred in my personal piety.
Self deception is more like it, which no doubt is a part of ‘self-work’.

Now, how in the world can you not be convinced or deceived by your own conviction?
You have convinced that I am Gnostic and I have convinced me that I am not, whose conviction is to be the holy verdict?

Some Christians go for Christian socialism, some for Capitalism, others for Communism, some for gay right, some for abortion, some uphold Allah as God, some for this or that, going all different cultural diversities.
Whose verdict is holy to be it?
Don’t they have their own conviction to go for whatever conviction in their heart?

As man thinks in his heart, so is he?

If for the war, then, there got to be reason why.
If against, the same thing though in opposite.

Who is to say what is the holy verdict or conviction to follow as the holy Christian culture?
(Do you approve the holy Crusade?)
Yours or mine, or Pope the holy father?

Who is to say what is the holy Christian culture derived from the true Christian faith?



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/6/2008 9:07:48 AM)

The glory of our faith is that it is so practical.

http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/article.php?ArticleID=2348

tks for sharing, rjrfan!
thank God our faith is practical, not idealistic, not escapist, not detached, not pompous, not patronizing, not dogmatic, not intolerant.



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/6/2008 10:09:14 AM)

i think sth is very funny that no matter what we post here, we really dont know each other much, until we meet each other much n become some kind of friends in real life.

for example myself: i know myself. from my posts, u may think i am a very social person, but actually i can be social, just i am not very social. my career is a very independent job. on weekends when most people are at parties or meetings, i have to look after my son who is 5.
i have many great christian friends, but bcz i am quite busy with my business, actually i am not spending much time with my friends.

i also lack best skills dealing with many types of people, christian or not. so i wl not judge anybody. i know when i start to judge others, i can be the top person who is going to be judged.

i do have my own preference on choosing friends. i do try to find positiveness in everybody but meantime i know my close true friends can be just very few, christian or christian-friendly. my concept of friend doesnt mean biz partners who bring me only money. i do biz with people of other faiths.



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/6/2008 11:19:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brachah

The glory of our faith is that it is so practical.
tks for sharing, rjrfan!
thank God our faith is practical, not idealistic, not escapist, not detached, not pompous, not patronizing, not dogmatic, not intolerant.



For the sake of ideal-talk, idle-talk if you will, let me point to an impractical side of the Christian faith.

The command of ‘love your enemy’ for a soldier in an army is not very practical command, is it not?
Just imagine what the Roman centurion would have faced as a Christian soldier?

Aren’t we the idealists who believe that the Kingdom of God will come to replace the kingdoms of the world?
Isn’t that a reason why some governments persecute Christians who don’t comply with their ‘idea’ of what life is?

Aren’t we the escapist who beg to be hidden in Him when we face the troubles in this world, saying ‘hide me in the shadow of Your wings?
What is wrong with that?

Detached- that is a holy command for us to be separated from the world.
Detached from the world in order to be attached to the genuine orange tree, that is a Christian faith, not culture.

Pompous is the perfect expression for the Chinese word for righteousness- lamb over me.
Pretentiously dignified under the cover of Lamb’s skin- that is what our Christian righteous is all about to the world, even to self who knows exactly who I am, sinner, realistically and practically.
Hypocrite, they call us.

Do you have that righteousness, the Lamb over me, like the Chinese righteous letter illustrates?
If you do, you are being pompous to the eyes of the unbelieving world.

Have you ever wondered how a lamb over me is righteous instead of ‘right’ over me?
Don’t you know you have a word for ‘right’ in Chinese?
Why not the letter for ‘right’ is not placed over me to be righteous instead of the letter for lamb?

Being intolerant is helplessly a Christian faith, if you truly believe that Jesus is THE way, THE truth and THE life.
Don’t you think that the statement of ‘NO one except through me (Jesus)’ is the most intolerant statement?
However, if Jesus is what He claims to be who He is, He is the only way, making all other ways ‘no way’, wrong, evil, false, bad, hellbound, cursed, destructive, imaginary, untrue, illegal, useless, dusty, haughty, deceptive, and all the bad name you can think of.

Why do I say things that are not in agreement with you?
Think about ‘counter-balancing’.

Or, the Chinese letter for righteousness, lamb over me.
If the two are not in union, it cannot produce a whole letter for righteousness.

You can go all over with your right thinking, ‘right over me’, not lamb over me, you will never become right in the eye of God, maybe right in the eyes of people.

Lamb over me is the core faith of Christianity.

As you can read, I am just counter-balancing, with the Chinese letter for righteousness, lamb over me.
I wonder why you don’t recognize the highest value and honor in your own language of righteousness.



RJR_fan -> RE: christian culture (5/6/2008 6:39:21 PM)

quote:


i also lack best skills dealing with many types of people, christian or not.


Yet, one could assume, judging from your command of the English language (including "1337") that you were a native speaker. It's ironic, but I've met other professional communicators who felt socially inept in person!

Reformations are scholarly movements. I want to be in on what God is up to, and I beg Him to let me bear "fruit that remains" (see John 15).



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/7/2008 7:44:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brachah

i think sth is very funny that no matter what we post here, we really dont know each other much, until we meet each other much n become some kind of friends in real life.



How can we?

What you post is only a fraction of yourself, out of which no other people can guesstimate a whole person.
Even that small portion is not received the way it is due to many things that hinder a good communication.

The communication problem can have two faces- problems with the sender and the receiver.

On the sender’s side, a sender can send thought pictures wrong, maybe due to wrong concept, description, wrong words used, done poorly, or plainly wrong to begin with like misunderstanding, false knowledge, wrong belief or conviction, etc.

On the receiving end, there are many receiving problems also, like misreading, misunderstanding, twisting, ASSUMPTION, guesstimation, image edition, coloring, screening, and more.

A sincere question can be received as sarcasm.
A simple check mate can be returned as a major offending.
A fraction send may return with more than 100 point gains, usually imaginary.
A thoughtless remark can be back as a thoughtful blow.

Simply, you don’t or can’t know who in what shape is at the receiving end in this cyber space.

Maybe thought to be a female but in fact a male, Christian but not true one, young but old, civilian but government agency, and that sort of things are going on.
There is no way to check real identity here.
You just can’t take the face value here in the cyber world bust because of the claims of the typed words.

Another thing is that if you don’t agree with someone, you can’t be a friend but foe.

I usually don’t agree easily, not because I am allergic to agreeing but to bring up issues not in agreement to go deeper and broader.

Not that I don’t have the receiving end problem or sender’s problem.
I got both that make talking more interesting, if not difficult or funny.

Sometime, I stuck with some problems that I can’t shake them off easily, dragging all along.
Right now, I am stuck with the Chinese letter for righteousness and the label ‘Gnosis’ which I can’t take it off because the name giver is silent about taking it back upon hearing my rejection.

I thought I confessed a Christian faith but was taken as ‘Gnosis’!
What would you do to take off some name you don’t want to be called?

Nevertheless, I will not take the Lamb’s skin off ‘self’, however sounding Gnostic, because without it, you can’t have righteousness.

I still claim that ‘lamb over me’ is the core Christian faith, not Christian culture, being called ‘Gnosis’ or not.



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/7/2008 8:12:18 AM)

kingdust, ur opinions are well-noted!



kingdust -> RE: christian culture (5/7/2008 9:13:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brachah

kingdust, ur opinions are well-noted!


Thank you, but the Chinese word for righteousness, lamb over me, is not my opinion; it is of Chinese.
I wonder where your ancestor got that idea.

Also, Christian righteousness acquired by putting faith in Jesus, not by doing the right things God commanded to do, is not of my opinion.

If any is my opinion, it is my use of 'lamb over me' metaphor to depict a core Christian faith.

One thing I am not sure if it is mine or not is my claim of 'I am not Gnosist'.

Believing is one thing, but to be exactly it is another.

Who else can tell me who I am really?



Brachah -> RE: christian culture (5/7/2008 9:45:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RJR_fan

quote:


i also lack best skills dealing with many types of people, christian or not.


Yet, one could assume, judging from your command of the English language (including "1337") that you were a native speaker. It's ironic, but I've met other professional communicators who felt socially inept in person!

Reformations are scholarly movements. I want to be in on what God is up to, and I beg Him to let me bear "fruit that remains" (see John 15).


amen. God bless!



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