RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (Full Version)

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drmark -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/25/2008 7:53:25 AM)

quote:

Maybe..we are not ignorant. Maybe...we disagree.
What do we disagree on? If you do not understand or recognize the concept of Christian perfection as described by Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine, then how can we disagree on something we don't even share an awareness or comprehension of? Your posts on this and other threads tell me that you have a faulty concept of sanctified holiness. That is not judgemental, that is realistic, SonInMe1.



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/25/2008 4:12:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

You beat me to it. On another thread the idea of complete sanctification was brought up. Yeshua(Jesus) tells us, (Mt 5:48) "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Is this possible this side of paradise?

Does the word translated "perfect" mean "without flaw or sin" or does it mean "mature"? Your answer might be in understanding what the word means in today's English.


Do you really think Jesus was saying "Be mature, therefore, as your heavenly Father is mature?

I do.

Really.

Makes you think, huh?
[;)]


I always thought of the heavenly Father as being perfect. I stand corrected. He's merely mature.



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/25/2008 4:29:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

How can Jesus be a role model, if we are perfect?


I bet I can give an answer that everyone here can disagree with!

In terms of our justification, we are perfect, because righteousness is imputed to us through faith. (Romans 4:5-8)

In terms of our sanctification, we (speaking for myself, anyway) are not yet perfect and are in need of a role model. (Philippians 3:12)



Anisavta -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/25/2008 6:15:10 PM)

quote:


If Jesus is a role model as well as Savior, then it would behove us to spend time studying His life and teachings so that we may become more intimately acquainted and influenced by His life. In John 13:15, Jesus cites Himself as a role model.

Yeshua was a Rabbi (a teacher) and His discipes were called talmidim (students). There was an old Jewish saying that said to follow a rabbi was to "be covered with the dust of his feet". In other words the students followed so closely to their teacher that the dust from his feet would get all over the students. They were with him 24/7.
Are we any different than the students back in the 1st Century. If Yeshua is our teacher, shouldn't we also be following him and His Words so closely that we can quote his words and take on his mannerisms? Shouldn't we be covered in His dust?

quote:


Does the word translated "perfect" mean "without flaw or sin" or does it mean "mature"? Your answer might be in understanding what the word means in today's English.


Mat 5:48 Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Perfect meaning: tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal)
Deu 18:13 You shall be perfect with ADONAI your God. Perfect meaning:ta-mam'
A primitive root; to complete.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/25/2008 9:35:05 PM)

quote:

If you do not understand or recognize the concept of Christian perfection as described by Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine, then how can we disagree on something we don't even share an awareness or comprehension of?


Maybe I understand it really well, was taught this holiness baloney and have biblically rejected it. As I have stated before, the same crowd who rails against the name it claim it prosperity doctrine do the same thing by claiming this "false" holiness/perfection.

quote:

In terms of our justification, we are perfect, because righteousness is imputed to us through faith. (Romans 4:5-8)

In terms of our sanctification, we (speaking for myself, anyway) are not yet perfect and are in need of a role model. (Philippians 3:12)


Exactly.



drmark -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/25/2008 9:47:29 PM)

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Maybe I understand it really well, was taught this holiness baloney and have biblically rejected it. As I have stated before, the same crowd who rails against the name it claim it prosperity doctrine do the same thing by claiming this "false" holiness/perfection.
Well, your attitude speaks volumes! One does not understand sanctified holiness by being taught baloney. One understands it by experiencing the grace and power of the Holy God in one's heart and life!



figmentPez -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/26/2008 3:14:53 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

So all your teaching is perfect? There is absolutely no flaw in anything you have declared to be true about God or scripture? If I were to look through the posts on this board, every single post would be a perfect reflection of truth, because you were totally submitted to God when making the post?


You guys really don't get this "Christian perfection" concept, do you! Why not do a little study of Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine and then maybe we can have a reasoned conversation. I will get you STARTED HERE.


I don't care about what your doctrine says, and how it's redefined "sin" to make you feel better about yourself, and let you pretend that you've already achieved the perfection that Paul says that he had not obtained: "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect," (Philippians 3:12)

What I do care about is what has actually been said in this thread. And that was this:
"if He is within me and I submit to what He'd have me do, then He is doing it through my submitted heart, mind, and soul."

JimboFletch said that he is that submitted "110%" of the time. That he is always so submitted to God that it is God acting through Him. I then asked if his doctrine was perfect because of this, because I assumed it must be. Certainly God does not want false doctrine taught? Certainly God would not act through someone to teach false doctrine?

So, which is it? Is your doctrine perfect? Is God acting through you to tell people things that are not true? Or are you not as perfectly surrendered to God as you think?



drmark -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/26/2008 6:21:17 PM)

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I don't care about what your doctrine says
It's not "my doctrine", fP. Please recall Matthew 5:48.

quote:

and how it's redefined "sin" to make you feel better about yourself
The only Christians who are "redefining sin" are those who claim the Atonement changed the nature of sin so that God could no longer see Christians sin. The Bible states that God can change the nature of man through the Atonement so that we no longer have to sin.

quote:

and let you pretend that you've already achieved the perfection that Paul says that he had not obtained
I have not "achieved anything" and I challenge you to find a post of mine that states otherwise. God has made me holy, by His grace and power, just as He made Paul holy. A correct exegesis of Phil 3:7-14 clearly indicates that Paul was discussing our glorification at resurrection, not the ability to live above sin right here and now. Just look at 3:9 to read how Paul desires to be found in the present having a righteousness that comes only from God by faith in Christ. Shame on you for lifting a verse out of context, fP!

quote:

What I do care about is what has actually been said in this thread. And that was this:
"if He is within me and I submit to what He'd have me do, then He is doing it through my submitted heart, mind, and soul."
And that is nothing more than the simple concept of Christian perfection, if you would care to examine it instead of railing against it.

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Certainly God does not want false doctrine taught? Certainly God would not act through someone to teach false doctrine?
Please feel free to find any Scriptural basis for your claim that Holiness doctrine is somehow false.

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So, which is it? Is your doctrine perfect?
As I've already reminded you, it is God who commands us to be perfect, holy, righteous, pure, Christ-like, etc. His doctrine is perfect!

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Is God acting through you to tell people things that are not true?
I've stated absolutely nothing that cannot be found in God's Word, fP. Are you claiming the Bible is not true - I didn't think so!



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/26/2008 6:48:12 PM)

The scripture says "BE perfect." That means, its something you DO. It's a command. Therefore, as fallen men, we are striving for that perfection, we are striving to BE. As we grow in Him there are some things we will no longer struggle with, because we are GROWING in Him. So that we are closer and closer conformed to His image.

The scripture says BE perfect, not, "you ARE perfect." Maturity is something to attain in Christ, just as it is something to attain in this life. Have you ever met people who were immature? What do we usually say of such people? Grow up! It's a command. That's what Paul is saying.

"Grow up!"

Be faithful as Christ is faithful. Keep your word as God has kept His word. These are all commands, which means we have the "option" of NOT keeping them or not doing them. It is our WILL that allows us to become Mature. With God's power and a will submitted to Him and in line with His will, we can begin BE-ING mature. Daily. One step at a time, one day at a time, until Jesus Christ comes.

Paul was always addressing people to be mature and adults about life and godliness. He said, "When I was a child I spoke as a child and I thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put childish things away."

"Grow up, you guys! Be mature! Mind the things of God, already!" That is what Paul is saying.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/26/2008 11:34:20 PM)

You know what sin is, as a saved person you must know.

Do

you

sin?



drmark -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/27/2008 9:10:59 AM)

By the grace of God and through the power of the Holy Spirit, a sanctified Believer does not sin. When and if one does not appropriate God's grace and does not submit to the power of the Holy Spirit, a sanctified Believer will sin.

Do

you

understand?



SonInMe1 -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/27/2008 12:23:25 PM)

yes



figmentPez -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 12:00:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

What I do care about is what has actually been said in this thread. And that was this:
"if He is within me and I submit to what He'd have me do, then He is doing it through my submitted heart, mind, and soul."
And that is nothing more than the simple concept of Christian perfection, if you would care to examine it instead of railing against it.

quote:

Certainly God does not want false doctrine taught? Certainly God would not act through someone to teach false doctrine?
Please feel free to find any Scriptural basis for your claim that Holiness doctrine is somehow false.

quote:

So, which is it? Is your doctrine perfect?
As I've already reminded you, it is God who commands us to be perfect, holy, righteous, pure, Christ-like, etc. His doctrine is perfect!

quote:

Is God acting through you to tell people things that are not true?
I've stated absolutely nothing that cannot be found in God's Word, fP. Are you claiming the Bible is not true - I didn't think so!


I see you've completely missed my point. I'm not talking about just what you've been saying in this thread. I'm talking about each and every word you've said or typed about who God is, what God has said or anything about the truth of God or scripture. I'm not talking about one section of doctrine, I'm talking about everything you've ever proclaimed to be true. Everything you've ever said, even casually, because you will be called to account for each and every word, we all will.

This is my question. If you are so perfectly submitted to God, then is everything you say about God then perfect? Each and every word spoken, ever. Every statement about any aspect of Christian faith and practice, even statements made in ignorance.

As I said, is your doctrine (everything you say about God and Christianity and more) absolutely perfect, without any flaw, error or omission? Is every word you've ever said to another person about what is true actually been truth? And, no, I don't consider ignorance to be an excuse, because you're the ones who are claiming to be "110%" submitted to God, such that He is acting through you all the time. God has the ability to grant knowledge or, at the very least, He is acting through you and He can keep from saying anything at all.

If you truly believe that you've never said something in error, even in ignorance, because of your constant and flawless submission to God, then I see little point in discussing this with you, or anything else for that matter. Anytime that we disagree, you'll simply conclude that your perfect sumbission has made you right, and I must not be submitted like you are.

I assume if I look through the archives, I'll never find a thread where you and JimboFletch have disagreed on a teaching, ever? Since you both claim such perfect submission and perfect doctrine?



drmark -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 2:07:02 PM)

quote:

I see you've completely missed my point.
And I see you've completely misunderstood and misrepresented the doctrine of Christian perfection. I asked you do a little research but apparently you've already made up your mind on this issue. I'm sorry we cannot have a reasoned discussion without a common understanding of terminology. God bless you, figmentPez.



Anisavta -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 2:18:10 PM)

Since when is this a thread on christian perfection? I thought it was discussing Jesus as a role model?



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 2:25:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Jesus is also a Role Model
I feel this is one of the most neglected, underappreciated and generally misunderstood aspects of the Incarnation. Thanks for the reminder, gmc4!

quote:

The way we become like Him is to study His life and teachings.
No, I would say that the way we become like Christ is by sanctifying grace. When we have His perfect Love in our entire being, then we will grow in grace to be more Christ-like by studying and applying His lifestyle and teachings to our life.

quote:

The correct question is to ask ourself, "What Would Jesus Have Me Do?"
Better yet - what will we allow Jesus to do through us?


Agreed, but are we arguing semantics here? Most Christians will agree with my wording and also with your correction. We know that we are saved by grace and we grow because the Holy Spirit gives us the power to learn, apply and live as Jesus lived.

My challenge in this question is to invite Christians everywhere to do more getting to know Jesus.



Anisavta -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 2:29:17 PM)

Amen! Back to my post #29.



drmark -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 3:51:58 PM)

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Since when is this a thread on christian perfection? I thought it was discussing Jesus as a role model?
Which is exactly what Christian perfection is all about - following Jesus as our role model! Is anyone else paying attention here or should I just take my marbles and go home?



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 4:09:15 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Since when is this a thread on christian perfection? I thought it was discussing Jesus as a role model?
Which is exactly what Christian perfection is all about - following Jesus as our role model! Is anyone else paying attention here or should I just take my marbles and go home?


I would prefer to focus on Jesus as a role model, but to address the question on Christian perfection (evidence of our maturing and becoming more like the role model that Jesus is, I submit the following.

Christian perfection is a process, not a destination - at least while we are on this earth. We will achieve perfection (truely sinless living) when we arrive in heaven. Our "perfection" on this earth is because of what God has done in us, not what we have achieved through our own effort.

As you and I continue to study the Bible, we will continue to grow in maturity. God will see us as "perfect" only in that He sees us seeking to follow Him as opposed to just doing what we've done before He came into our lives.



drmark -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 4:20:37 PM)

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Christian perfection is a process, not a destination - at least while we are on this earth. We will achieve perfection (truely sinless living) when we arrive in heaven. Our "perfection" on this earth is because of what God has done in us, not what we have achieved through our own effort.
This is your understanding of "Christian perfection", gmc4. Mine is different. I believe (and Scripture, tradition, and experience all support) that Christian perfection is an event, a process, and a goal. It is not absolutely sinless living because that requires our glorification in heaven, not perfection here on earth. Everything righteous that a sanctified Christian does on this earth must be because of what God has done in us, not what we have achieved through our own effort.

Because this is your OP, I respect the differences in our usage of perfection and I will refrain from using the term if I post again here. Thanks for your patience, gmc4.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 5:04:59 PM)

DrMark,
I don't see your comments as that opposed or different that what I'm trying to say. I believe that we are trying to say the same thing from different perspectives.

Back to the question of Jesus as a role model, how does our relationship with Him help us in achieving that perfection?



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/28/2008 5:55:28 PM)

Jesus as a role model, I would say Jesus is the only role model for a Christian. I think that knowing more and more of Him, and using everyday to live that, is what we should be all about. When he said I am the way, the truth, and the life, I think that applies to all aspects of our lives. He told us how to live, gave us the words to live by, and the example of how to go about doing it.

Jesus= role model amongst many other things in my eyes.



drmark -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/29/2008 8:37:10 AM)

quote:

Back to the question of Jesus as a role model, how does our relationship with Him help us in achieving that perfection?
Now hold on here, why are you misusing the word "perfection" when you just stated we are trying to say the same thing?

We do not "achieve" anything - Christ living in, through, and with us is the ONLY reason we can be like Him. Thus, our mutual relationship (our partnership, if you will) is the very basis for following His Role Model (living in Christian perfection, if you will).



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Jesus is also a Role Model (4/30/2008 12:39:57 AM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Back to the question of Jesus as a role model, how does our relationship with Him help us in achieving that perfection?
Now hold on here, why are you misusing the word "perfection" when you just stated we are trying to say the same thing?

We do not "achieve" anything - Christ living in, through, and with us is the ONLY reason we can be like Him. Thus, our mutual relationship (our partnership, if you will) is the very basis for following His Role Model (living in Christian perfection, if you will).


You both have valid points.

Achieving is not necessarily a bad word. We all want to achieve spiritual perfection. That is only accomplished by what God does in us, but it is something that we also "do" in accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Because of that relationship with Jesus, we will want to change our actions to refrain from past sinful activities. To achieve some victory over sin (small or great) is a good and Godly thing. Our salvation is not based on it, but we question the salvation of someone who claims to be a Christian but does not stop their sinful behavior.

It is Christ living in us that motivates us to change our lives to become more like Him. As we become more aware of temptation and stronger at saying "no" to those temptations, we achieve that victory. It is not perfection except in the eyes of God.

God considers us perfect whether we have achieved a degree of spiritual maturity or not as long as we are sincerely believing in Him and trying to follow His will for our lives.

God bless you all as we continue getting to know Jesus.



iamjc-s -> possible meanings of translated "perfect" (4/30/2008 11:02:30 AM)

quote:

Does the word translated "perfect" mean "without flaw or sin" or does it mean "mature"? Your answer might be in understanding what the word means in today's English.


A possible meaning of translated "perfect" when the Bible says "Be perfect" is "achieve/consummate human integrity and virtue of men" according to
NASB with Strongs @
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5046&version=nas & MSNThesaurus on consummate.

Mt. 5:48 (AMPlified version) You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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