|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Chasing One's Tail - 5/1/2008 6:23:42 AM
|
|
|
oldmethuselah
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
|
CC20
Although your post smacks of inherent common sense, the ability of humans to twist and turn away from the obvious remains.
I remember one of our leading atheist "lights", when faced with the obvious mathematical difficulties of life evolving - even given the generous four billion year "window" - told us our planet was "seeded" from ANOTHER planet! (a grudging acknowledgement of your "parent" point)
Of course, then the merry-go-round starts again, about that OTHER planet, doesn't it? 
But, when we atheists, eager to believe "the great man", all nod our heads in agreement and approbation, it is because we REALLY CAN'T SEE what a non-answer he had given.
I know it is astounding, when taken from the other side, but such things occur with surprising regularity.
Just to take the pressure off atheists at this point, Phillip Yancey, in his book "What's So Amazing About Grace?" describes the church he grew up in.
Their doctrine, on PAPER, looked so straight up evangelical, acknowledging the depravity of man, the only saving power of Jesus, etc.
Yet their Church Ushers would ALWAYS TURN AWAY any dark-skinned individual, NOT CONSCIOUSLY REALIZING how contradictory their blatant racism was!
Indeed, they would not have let the REAL Christ in the door - no disrespect to your picture is intended - because he would have had the wrong colour skin.
Atheist, or unregenerate "christian" alike, our reason is so easily duped by our prejudices!
< Message edited by oldmethuselah -- 5/1/2008 6:50:29 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Arguments against the existence of God - 5/1/2008 7:13:25 AM
|
|
|
TJStarfire
Posts: 76
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kung_fu_sed
Lol. Don't choke down everything you're fed. 
I watched that through a personal telescope and saw the landing with my own eyes.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Arguments against the existence of God - 5/1/2008 10:00:05 PM
|
|
|
oldmethuselah
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
|
Cc20
I am ASTONISHED that you thought I was not supporting your post.
Let me restate my opinion of post #54 (your remarks about parents)
I fully agree with your position and think that atheists (as I once was) are at best, avoiding the issue, when they talk about "alien seeding" of our "cosmic soup" as an explanation of why there is life on earth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: With much speaking...comes folly? - 5/3/2008 8:17:48 AM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 1164
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
|
quote:
At the moment, our resident atheists seem to be strangely quiet...
Where did they go?
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: With much speaking...comes folly? - 5/3/2008 10:32:51 AM
|
|
|
GeorgiaNerd
Posts: 244
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: UGA... GO DAWGS!
Status: offline
|
It is exam week for me, and perhaps some of the others.
Oldmethuselah, I would like to better understand your argument because much of it does not make sense to me.
quote:
A) The African lion sleeps most of the day basking under trees, is pretty much the top of the food chain, has his meals brought to him by his mate and, when the pro-genitive mood takes him has been observed to span some ten hours in the diversion...
B) The Coastal Apes (sorry can't remember which locale) living a fairly wretched existence windswept wet conditions, where infighting and survival takes up almost all of their sorry existence...
Now the actions of NEITHER the "Happy" lions nor the "Sad" apes can be considered in anyway immoral whether resting or disemboweling an enemy or a prey, and, other than their momentary pleasure, it would be extremely anthropomorphic of us to attribute to them any noble or higher thoughts of "the greater good" or an actual "larger knowledge" of their actions...
in fact, in the vernacular, as I am sure you are aware... they are call "AMORAL"
Agreed for the most part. As far as I know, we don't know what the thought processes of other animals is. Can we say for certain that other animals never have any higher thoughts?
quote:
Now, an atheistic human, observing he is part of a group of creatures - many of which are deluded into thinking their lives have some sort of lasting significance - really only has to make decisions to maximize his personal pleasure, and if it is useful to exploit these weaknesses in others, then so be it.
The clinical definition of a "sociopath" includes the notion of a chameleon like creature who adopts whatever survival methods work best. IF caught in something others call "illegal", he becomes the model prisoner until released, and then asap reverts to a behavior which is best described as "amoral"
I submit to you that sociopathy is the most logical philosophy for an atheist. There really is no "after me", as indeed, there really was no "before me". (Like our lion and ape friends)
Now you and I both know atheists who are self-sacrificing and noble, but - unless it can be proven that they have some ulterior self-serving motive - I would have to tell them that they are being "illogical"
Humans do adopt whatever survival method works best. But you seem to imply that this always entails exploiting others. Many atheists believe, including myself, that humans are just another part of the animal kingdom. So the question would be is the exploitation-only view consistent with the natural law of the animal kingdom? Even a very limited knowledge of ecology would tell you that it is not. Seeing that commensalism happens so commonly in the animal kingdom, why is all noble behavior illogical for atheists?
quote:
Christians believe there is such a thing as Truth, Right and Wrong and a whole set of other values blah blah blah..
Why would atheists not believe in truth? That would be delusional at best. Without understanding this point, the rest of your post doesn't make sense to me. Right and wrong I'll give you because many of us don't believe in absolute morality. But all do have to make judgments of right and wrong, even if only for the self, everyday.
quote:
within the framework of atheism, you can "find them wanting" merely because they displease you,
BUT, within the framework of a system that believes in meaning and logic,
if McDowell's or Strobel's work are ill-researched or incomplete, CHRISTIANS should join you in decrying them, since Christians believe in things like "right" and "wrong" or "accurate" and "inaccurate"...
There is an interesting trend that I have noticed among the Christians, atheists, and others when engaging these arguments. The more the author agrees with one's point of view, the less likely one is to notice inaccuracies, illogical arguments, and incompleteness in the work. Take the Strobel work for instance. It is a work that could only persuade the most illogical of atheists if any at all, and yet it is the book that most Christians recommend first to skeptics.
quote:
AND that brings us to "LOGIC" - there really is NO NEED for an atheist to follow a trained argument, IF by other means, such as Foul Language, Ad Hominem Attacks and Deviations, the atheist can WIN his point. Indeed the whole concept of a "trained argument" is a construct and a conceit that some other humans have devised.... As I say though, there is NO CONSTRAINT on a true atheist to think logically, only "WINNINGly" (pragmatically - whatever works)
Going with the trend I have previously stated, the "other side" is likely to notice when these techniques are used. This is why they are used as a last resort or when the opposition has no argument in response. When they are used, it is very likely that the individual using them is about to lose. Logic and well thought out arguments are the way to win. But, even if this wasn't the case, a fundamental assumption is made that I am not sure is correct. Is the goal always to "win" the argument? And why? It seems to me like there are many other goals of debate.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Arguments against the existence of God - 5/3/2008 4:28:50 PM
|
|
|
terryjohn
Posts: 388
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
|
The greatest argument for the nonexistence of God that atheists can provide is their own lives and thinking. We could look at somecummunities and well say, "God is dead....... to you!"
Conversly, the greatest argument for God is a Christian life full of love, forgiveness, joy, hope, gentleness, charity and hardwork etc.
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Paul Sartre - "don't let my servants hear!" - 5/4/2008 12:25:54 AM
|
|
|
oldmethuselah
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
|
RedCoat, good to hear from you!
I hope your exams went well, having experienced both sides, I found GIVING exams to be more pleasant than TAKING them in general, though I did try to make at least one or two questions interesting and "fun" for my students.
For example, when testing knowledge of exponential growth on a bacteria culture, we would pitch it as a school cafeteria problem, with incubation periods, and the school principal ingesting a potentially lethal number of doughnuts - sort of like a CSI investigation! ROFL
Anyway, back to the question, Jean Paul Sartre's opinion, I think was accurate, if somewhat chilling, and, without a meaningful beginning, and with an assured end, I cannot see a logical way to fault the atheist who does precisely what he/she pleases to survive as long and as well as he/she can.
As mentioned before, this does NOT preclude atheists from doing noble things, if it pleases them to be "remembered" in some sort of way, HOWEVER, ONLY the Christian can logically be held to account for churlish or "aberrant" behaviour.
To make a rather distasteful example...
suppose an atheist Scout leader and a Catholic priest decide to use their position to take advantage of little boys...
now, IF the priest ACTUALLY believes there is God, that there is life after this life, there is a right and a wrong way to behave, etc. etc. then he can be CALLED TO ACCOUNT for his actions and will experience cognitive dissonance at every turn...
the thoroughgoing atheistic Scout leader, need not experience ANY of these difficulties within the framework of his belief system.
Similarly, when you come to this debate room, ANY and ALL statements by Christians can be "held to the fire" to test their veracity under scrutiny (as you mentioned of Strobel's assertions), but there really is no reason to hold yourself to any such standard.
There can be NO appeal to a "higher law" if you truly do not believe there is a "higher intelligence" - talk about "race survival" is mere poppycock for the particular individual.
This is not to say that CHRISTIANS - who believe that the atheist Scout leader was made by God, whether he agrees or not - won't have something to say about whether his actions are right or wrong...
BUT, as an atheist, (as reprehensible as you might find the Scout leader), you can NOT say or demonstrate why what he is doing is wrong.
You might as well chastise a lion for disembowelling a baby gazelle!
by the way, I hope you get a chance to check out Ravi Zacharias and the guys he works with - I will be surprised if you don't appreciate their style even if you don't come around to their way of thinking
< Message edited by oldmethuselah -- 5/4/2008 8:59:11 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Jean Paul Sartre - "don't let my servants hear... - 5/4/2008 10:37:19 PM
|
|
|
SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 622
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
|
Ok, again, please humor me. Lets look at this from a logical standpoint.
What is the logic behind a Godless existence?
What logic is there for why we are here, other than God?
What logic can be afforded to us being here, sucking up the earths natural resources, and then dying?
I just don't get it. I started thinking that maybe as Christians we are blind to these lies, like unbelievers are blind to the truth. But I know that is not true. This is what tests our faith... unbelief. Also because a former believer who posts on here is now a non believer.
But, am I missing something. Even when I was living a life of sin, I always knew I would answer to God one day. Yet this is the only reason I could come up with for the argument of atheists. They don't believe because they don't want to have to answer for the things they do. Fear of judgment. Fear of being found wanting.
Not having, or recognizing absolute morality, right and wrong, would be incredibly detrimental to our society. Talk about anarchy. If I just lived with no regards to right or wrong, doing what made me happy, and what I thought was right since there is no wrong, sadly, I would probably be a very bad person. But then again, there would be no bad people.
Is this an existence that you really want?
Murderers, rapists, child molesters running loose, because hey, they thought they were doing good deeds, never being held accountable for what they do. This is a scary thought. I would never want to live in a world like that.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
|
|
|
|
|
The abandonment of Logic - 5/5/2008 6:37:48 AM
|
|
|
oldmethuselah
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
|
FYI
Here are two links to Ravi Zacharias' book intros that may be relevant to this thread.
An Apologetic for Apologetics
The Trinity as a Paradigm for Spiritual Transformation
Although our two "resident atheists" have faithfully attempted to employ a reasoned approach, the "Apologetic for Apologetics" link illustrates why so many pre-Christians do not feel it necessary to do so.
One recent paraphrase of a comment from a university student illustrates this complete detachment from logical thought...
"Sure I believe Jesus was the Son of God, sure I believe he was raised from the dead, ... So What? ... maybe my uncle Harold will be raised from the dead next week, what's that got to do with me?"
< Message edited by oldmethuselah -- 5/5/2008 6:51:00 AM >
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
RE: With much speaking...comes folly? - 
