RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (Full Version)

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earthless -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 7:55:10 PM)

As long as my proclamation has all the emoticons: [:)] [8D] [:D] [;)] attached to it, like I first posted it? Sure.



[:)]



lw9 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 7:56:39 PM)

quote:

GroupW: So lw, do you really think he believes God's love for us is sexual? That we should relate to him in a human romantic sense?


Considering that he and his wife chose to use romantic and sensual illustrations and describe it in those terms, yes. I see no reason not to take him at his word.

Have a good dinner!



sue244 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 8:30:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

I am NOT a sinner any longer.


Must be nice to be perfect [8|]



draexo -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 8:33:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

A. There is sin in the world
B. Yikes--there is sin and apathy in the church at large as well
C. So then, let's give men sex, war, and thrill seeking. [:'(] That'll please the Lord and get us back on track!

Does sloppy theology lead to correct thinking and action?



Have you actually read any of Ransomed Hearts publications? I find it very unlikely as Eldredge addresses those who see his ministry as "sex, war, and thrill seeking".



draexo -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 8:35:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

quote:

GroupW: So lw, do you really think he believes God's love for us is sexual? That we should relate to him in a human romantic sense?


Considering that he and his wife chose to use romantic and sensual illustrations and describe it in those terms, yes. I see no reason not to take him at his word.

Have a good dinner!

Wow. I must ask the same question. Have you read any of it? I have, and I took none of this out of his teachings.



crankius -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 8:56:58 PM)

Okay, back to theology, Dudes and Dudettes...


Let’s examine the Romans 7 passage you keep using. It is important to note this passage is regarding the law and how the law condemns. Christ is within the believer, yet sin is there as well—there is a mind of Christ at the same time that there is a flesh of carnal nature.

quote:

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.



The carnal self, the flesh, is in conflict with the Spirit. Notice it does not say that your carnal self is in conflict with your good heart. It is the Spirit of Christ which is within Paul's mind which wills to do good and delights in God's law, and it is Paul's carnal flesh (where nothing good dwells) which desires to do evil.

See—Eldredge equates the heart with the Spirit, but that is not the case. The heart can be led by the Spirit or can be led by the flesh. The heart itself does not become the Spirit.

A regenerate heart has a choice, whereas an unregenerate heart has no choice but to obey the flesh (a slave), and thus stands condemned by the law. This is why Paul celebrates that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

IF Eldredge had written about seeking after the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, then surely he would be encouraging us to seek after the desires of the Spirit and walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

But instead, he has instructed men that their deepest desires are for a "battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue." This, he says, is where a man will find his heart and his identity. This is utter theological rubbish!

Three topics to address next: the heart made "right", regeneration, and sanctification...coming up! I'm sure you're all atwitter in anticipation!



lw9 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 9:07:14 PM)

quote:

crankius: Three topics to address next: the heart made "right", regeneration, and sanctification...coming up! I'm sure you're all atwitter in anticipation!


Sounds good to me! I'm all ears.



draexo -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 9:07:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

Okay, back to theology, Dudes and Dudettes...


Let’s examine the Romans 7 passage you keep using. It is important to note this passage is regarding the law and how the law condemns. Christ is within the believer, yet sin is there as well—there is a mind of Christ at the same time that there is a flesh of carnal nature.

quote:

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.



The carnal self, the flesh, is in conflict with the Spirit. Notice it does not say that your carnal self is in conflict with your good heart. It is the Spirit of Christ which is within Paul's mind which wills to do good and delights in God's law, and it is Paul's carnal flesh (where nothing good dwells) which desires to do evil.

See—Eldredge equates the heart with the Spirit, but that is not the case. The heart can be led by the Spirit or can be led by the flesh. The heart itself does not become the Spirit.

A regenerate heart has a choice, whereas an unregenerate heart has no choice but to obey the flesh (a slave), and thus stands condemned by the law. This is why Paul celebrates that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

IF Eldredge had written about seeking after the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, then surely he would be encouraging us to seek after the desires of the Spirit and walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

But instead, he has instructed men that their deepest desires are for a "battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue." This, he says, is where a man will find his heart and his identity. This is utter theological rubbish!

Three topics to address next: the heart made "right", regeneration, and sanctification...coming up! I'm sure you're all atwitter in anticipation!

The books are designed for apathetic Christian men to wake them from their apathy. They always end up seeking after God. Someone well on their walk with Christ would see them as children's books and be offended by them.



crankius -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 9:14:46 PM)

The Heart made "right"-Justification

SD stated:
quote:

Ac 8:21
You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Our hearts can actually be made 'right' before God so that they are no longer desperately wicked.


Is the heart made righteous or good or right in itself?

Being justified does not mean that suddenly you are made into righteousness in yourself, in your being or heart. All of your righteousness is Christ's righteousness.

This is called imputed righteousness, and it means we are justified based on Christ ALONE.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (I encourage you to look closely at this passage in context because it is the "new creation" passage)

Romans 3:21-24 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

On the cross, Christ became our sin, and through Him, we gain His righteousness.

If Christ's work on the cross made us to have perfect hearts in our beings, we could then enter heaven based on our own righteous hearts. Read Romans 4 closely, and you will see that Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who have faith, and righteousness is imputed "...apart from works." Apart from us, apart from our hearts, apart from our flesh. It is Christ's alone.

SD stated:
quote:

Ro 10:10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified. It is in our hearts where faith resides.


Does your faith to believe come from yourself? Your faith cannot stem from within your heart because your heart is "...dead in trespasses..." (eph 2:4-5). A dead thing cannot come to life on its own. No--even your faith comes from God:

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

Your heart doesn't seek after God, but rather God gives ears to hear and eyes to see and opens the heart to spiritual things. Faith is a gift.

In essence, your heart is NOT good--rather, your heart has been covered with Christ's goodness through His blood. Righteousness has not been infused in you--it has been imputed to you. We are indeed sinners saved by grace.

Regeneration

The regeneration within a believer means that the Spirit now dwells—it does not mean that now the heart is made perfect or even what you could call good. It is a birth of the Spirit within you, where God writes His law upon your heart (Jer 31:33).

Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Sanctification

Sanctification is a different topic. In sanctification, we are moving from glory to glory (2 Cor 3:18) and we are being led by the Spirit more and more (Gal 5:13-26). As a believer grows, certainly his heart becomes more in line with God’s desires.

But, still, the heart can be led by the flesh or by the Spirit—the heart is not in and of itself righteous.



crankius -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 9:27:04 PM)

quote:

The books are designed for apathetic Christian men to wake them from their apathy. They always end up seeking after God. Someone well on their walk with Christ would see them as children's books and be offended by them.


I see his books as irresponsible male leadership (and irresponsible, sloppy theology). Men don't need leadership telling them to find their identity in "battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue." How is this any different from the world? It's seriously a self-centered theology.

Christ asks us to make Him ALL OF US.

Col 3:1-4 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

You died!!! Your life is hidden with Christ! Christ IS your life.

This is the kind of teaching in my church, and wow is it ever motivating for everyone--men and women.



Kat_D -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/29/2008 10:25:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:

The books are designed for apathetic Christian men to wake them from their apathy. They always end up seeking after God. Someone well on their walk with Christ would see them as children's books and be offended by them.


I see his books as irresponsible male leadership (and irresponsible, sloppy theology). Men don't need leadership telling them to find their identity in "battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue." How is this any different from the world? It's seriously a self-centered theology.

Christ asks us to make Him ALL OF US.

Col 3:1-4 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

You died!!! Your life is hidden with Christ! Christ IS your life.

This is the kind of teaching in my church, and wow is it ever motivating for everyone--men and women.


Yes, it's like blaming the Gospel because men can't get it together! So what's their answer? To come up with something more appealing...a better story. We don't have to juice it up or make it more entertaining, fanciful, romantic or entertaining. God's Word is enough...Jesus Christ and Him crucified is enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Draexo
The books are designed for apathetic Christian men to wake them from their apathy.

Silly me...I thought that was what the Gospel was designed for.



SD456 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 12:26:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

SD-Would it be more accurate to say instead of "I am a sinner no longer" that rather my sinful heart is no longer that which defines me in God's eyes?

LW- to be fair, Eldredge in other places says quite plainly that my human heart is also wicked. He just seems to believe that this is no longer that which defines me. I am able to aspire to and desire something better. He actually does not advocate that we can blindly trust our hearts after salvation, though I can see how this is not made very clear. In this I find him to be biblically consistent though not always very clear and quite subject to misunderstanding.


What I meant was that my identity is no longer that of a sinner. God has changed our names. We are no longer called 'outcasts' we are now 'adopted by God', and we are no longer 'lost ones' we are 'redeemed ones.'

When God looks at you He doesn't see a sinner any longer, He sees a new creation filled with the Holy Spirit who has been cleansed from sin. Yes, your old nature may rise up and cause you to sin, but it is not the new creation that you are that sins because that new nature in you hates to sin, it is the old sin nature in you - hence Paul laments about He not being the one who sins but the sin nature that he is chained to in the body that sins.

Our identity is no longer our old sin nature it is our new creation, so we can very clearly say I WAS a sinner who was saved by grace, not I AM a sinner, because I'm NOT - I'M a new creation, a child of God who may fall occasionally because of the battle within me that I might occasionally lose. There's a big difference in that and it's a difference that Paul was speaking about.



SD456 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 12:37:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius
The heart can be led by the Spirit or can be led by the flesh. The heart itself does not become the Spirit.


I agree with you. The heart does not become the spirit, especially since the heart is part of our soul, a completely separate part of us.

The heart though is part of the core of who we are - the spirit is not. The soul is at the core of who we are, it is the place where we have our emotions, personality and will. That is the 'inner most' being that I believe Paul is referring to.

But I agree with your points that we have a carnal nature - it has been crucified yet still resides in us.

quote:

Is the heart made righteous or good or right in itself?

Being justified does not mean that suddenly you are made into righteousness in yourself, in your being or heart. All of your righteousness is Christ's righteousness.

This is called imputed righteousness, and it means we are justified based on Christ ALONE.


Crankius I don't disagree with you at all. It is always Christ in us that purifies our heart and sprinkles our heart clean and keeps our heart filled with faith - it is ALL Christ. I've always believed that and so does Eldredge. My heart is made pure BECAUSE of Christ who dwells in it by faith not because of something I'm doing to make it pure.

My heart is never good all by itself - it is God's goodness that fills my heart and gives me a good heart - as Jesus said, "A good man out of the goodness of his heart produces good things." I believe that is God's goodness in that man's heart making it good and making it produce good things.



sue244 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 12:57:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sue
So which one is it SD. Are you against eros love from God or are you for it. You are talking about of both sides of your mouth.


Can you show me, sue, where I said that God has a lustful/sexual love for us? Please give me the post # and then I shall agree with you that I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. (You guys seem so good at your little constant jabs at others. But I don't buy it.)

I believe that Eldredge speaks about the strength of God's passion and love for us when he uses metaphors of lovers in literature. And I agree with him. God has such a strong love that He went to great lengths to pursue us and rescue us from certain death, even to the point of His own son's death on the cross. That strength of love is hinted at in literature and epic stories, the kind of love between a man and a woman. God spoke about that kind of love between Him and his bride the church in SOS.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with the idea that God's love for us is stronger than even human love could ever feel. But that's your problem, not mine. I shan't argue on that point with you because I'm not concerned with convincing you of God's love and couldn't even if I wanted to. It's a revelation that the HOly Spirit alone can impart to a person's heart - that God cherishes me and pursued me with His love because He longs to have relationship with me. It's wonderful to realize that God loves us with this kind of everlasting passionate love.

quote:

God placed in John Eldredge's heart these particular metaphors and object lessons to speak His truth.



Ok here you go here is where you permote a romantic eros love
quote:

He's speaking of love. He uses the term 'romance' as the active form of love. God romancing us and us romancing God back - as in the allegory of the Song of Solomon. I have no problem with using that term. Post 144


By the way we should never interpret the Bible in an Allegorical way. Just take Song of Solomon as it is, a beautiful love story/poem between a married couple.

quote:

That would definately be creepy. I've never read that kind of love in his books or heard that from the people I know who attended his conferences.

Where did you hear that Eldredge pushes a lustful/sexual love? Post 155

then you deny the idea of a eros love

quote:

God placed in John Eldredge's heart these particular metaphors and object lessons to speak His truth. Post 179 in reference to the Titanic, LOTR and Braveheart quote


then you are back to defending the eros love with this quote.

So again you are speaking out of both sides of the mouth. Are you for eros love from God or against it?



SD456 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 1:05:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat
To come up with something more appealing...a better story. We don't have to juice it up or make it more entertaining, fanciful, romantic or entertaining. God's Word is enough...Jesus Christ and Him crucified is enough.


It's not a 'better' story that's being told, it's more like the 'full' story that's being told.

Too much of the church does not teach the 'full' story nor do they disciple christians to walk like Jesus and do the works that Jesus did. Jesus was wild and radical. He was a revolutionary who had great courage and did the greatest exploit of all for the Father. We are to be like minded, boldly going where no man has gone before. Dan 11:32 The people who know their God shall be strong and carry out great exploits.

To live like Christ is to live a bold life filled with supernatural power because we have the huge living God of the universe actually dwelling inside our mortal bodies! Our spiritual DNA has completely changed. We actually have God's DNA flowing through us now. We are radically new creations, we're not just worms who are righteous because Jesus makes us righteous - we are actually MADE righteous through a radical change of creation via Christ in us.

The 'full' story is that God relentlessly pursued lost mankind with a love that wooed our hearts to Him because He desired us and wanted to reveal His glory. That's the story that Eldredge tells - the 'full' story in his own words.



SD456 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 1:10:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sue
By the way we should never interpret the Bible in an Allegorical way. Just take Song of Solomon as it is, a beautiful love story/poem between a married couple.


Except that a large part of the church believes it's an allegory. You can believe as you choose, it's ok. I'm in agreement with the theologians and denominations who do believe it's an allegory.

quote:

then you are back to defending the eros love with this quote.


No one has referred to eros love in any of the posts except for you and lw.

Sue, have you been reading all the posts? You seem to be missing quite a few where both GroupW and I say that it is not sex that Eldredge is referring to when he speaks of romance - you would push that metaphor too far if you do so. GroupW articulates the thoughts much better than I, though I completely agree with him.

You need to go back and read his posts again. My posts following his just tend to agree with him. I'm tired of repeating myself, sorry.



sue244 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 1:33:17 AM)

The big problem with John Eldridge is that he is teaching Open Theism in his books. Open Theism I hope we can all agree on this is heresy.
Some quotes from his books:
Wild at Heart:
[God] did not make Adam and Eve obey him. He took a risk. A staggering risk, with staggering consequences. He let others into his story, and he lets their choices shape it profoundly. (31)
It's not the nature of God to limit his risks and cover his bases. (31)
God's relationship with us and with our world is just that: a relationship. As with every relationship, there's a certain amount of unpredictability, and the ever-present likelihood that you'll get hurt ... God's willingness to risk is just astounding-far beyond what any of us would do were we in his position. (32)

Its not a risk if you know what is going to happen, and even less of a risk if you control what happens.
Isa 14:24, Matt 19:26, Eph 1:11, Luke 1:37 Ex 9:16 1 Chr. 29:11, Job 21:22, 26:12,14, 36:22 Ps. 66:7, 139:6 etc.
By making a god who takes risk he is making a god who can fail. And I don’t know about you but why would I put my trust in a god that can fail? When I can put my trust in an All Powerful, All Knowing God, who’s plans will always come to pass.

Now I know that Eldridge has said he is not an open theist, but that shows that he is familier with the debate and should know better then to imply that God doesn’t know, or that it’s a risk for God to do something.
My Spurgen quote is very appropriate here. Eldridge has elevated man to basically good, and devalued God to a love sick puppy wringing his hands while waiting to see if his risk will pay off.



sue244 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 1:38:06 AM)

quote:

Except that a large part of the church believes it's an allegory.


If a million people believe the wrong thing is it still wrong?

Song of Solomon is clearly about sex between a married couple, to appy it to God and Israel, or Christ and the Church is just sick and not to mention bad hermenutics.



GroupW -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 10:00:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

quote:

GroupW: So lw, do you really think he believes God's love for us is sexual? That we should relate to him in a human romantic sense?


Considering that he and his wife chose to use romantic and sensual illustrations and describe it in those terms, yes. I see no reason not to take him at his word.

Have a good dinner!


This would seem to be the core of the disagreement then. In my mind, JE takes a certain metaphor and extracts what fits (the relentlessness of pursuit, strength of desire) and discards what doesn't (erotic love). In your mind then the metaphor is held to hold in its entirety.

I think my understanding of how he uses metaphor is closer to JE's intent, though the confusion is understandable and the reason I personally wouldn't have written it that way. I do not believe however that he's trying to inject erotic love into the relationship between the human and the divine.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on that point. In this case, the cause of the disagreement would seem to be a bad metaphor.

As far as open theism goes, I have a problem with that as well. I don't like the idea of a God that is constrained by space/time. I think that runs counter to the picture of God in John. It seems to me that open theism is a mechanism to explain away suffering. I like best the explanation for suffering that God gives Job - don't try to understand it. You can't.

It seems to me the church has always run into problems when it tries to explain away rationally that which should properly remain in the realm of mystery.

End of sermon. Good morning folks!



sue244 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 10:12:40 AM)

quote:

As far as open theism goes, I have a problem with that as well. I don't like the idea of a God that is constrained by space/time. I think that runs counter to the picture of God in John. It seems to me that open theism is a mechanism to explain away suffering. I like best the explanation for suffering that God gives Job - don't try to understand it. You can't.

It seems to me the church has always run into problems when it tries to explain away rationally that which should properly remain in the realm of mystery.


Whether God knows the future or not is not in the realm of mystery. The Bible clearly shows thoughout that God not only knows the future but is in control of what is happeing.



GroupW -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 10:29:29 AM)

I'm agreeing with you. I think open theism is an attempt in part to explain away suffering. I think the explanation, such as it is, for suffering is provided by Job. We can't understand it. We can't explain it away. Hence, the question of suffering rightly belongs in the realm of mystery. Attempting to rationalize it by limiting God within space/time doesn't seem appropriate to me.



crankius -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 10:43:11 AM)

SD,

You say "I agree with you..." a lot, but in reality your posts are not in agreement with my posts. Your posts would make more sense if you stated, "I disagree with you...".

quote:

I agree with you. The heart does not become the spirit, especially since the heart is part of our soul, a completely separate part of us.


The heart CANNOT be the Spirit--notice the Spirit in my posts was the Holy Spirit.

quote:


My heart is made pure BECAUSE of Christ who dwells in it by faith not because of something I'm doing to make it pure.

My heart is never good all by itself - it is God's goodness that fills my heart and gives me a good heart - as Jesus said, "A good man out of the goodness of his heart produces good things." I believe that is God's goodness in that man's heart making it good and making it produce good things.


You are justified NOT by God making your heart good, but by God looking at Christ's righteousness ALONE.

In addition, as I explained in my posts, the heart can either obey the flesh or obey the Spirit--the heart is not in and of itself made into a righteous thing.



SD456 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 1:09:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sue244

quote:

Except that a large part of the church believes it's an allegory.


If a million people believe the wrong thing is it still wrong?

Song of Solomon is clearly about sex between a married couple, to appy it to God and Israel, or Christ and the Church is just sick and not to mention bad hermenutics.


Yes, I understand that is your opinion.



SD456 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 1:26:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:


My heart is made pure BECAUSE of Christ who dwells in it by faith not because of something I'm doing to make it pure.

My heart is never good all by itself - it is God's goodness that fills my heart and gives me a good heart - as Jesus said, "A good man out of the goodness of his heart produces good things." I believe that is God's goodness in that man's heart making it good and making it produce good things.


You are justified NOT by God making your heart good, but by God looking at Christ's righteousness ALONE.

In addition, as I explained in my posts, the heart can either obey the flesh or obey the Spirit--the heart is not in and of itself made into a righteous thing.


I agree with you crankius. You are turning my words in a different order. You're trying to say that I believe that God justifies me by making my heart good. That's not what I believe at all, far from it.

I believe that IN Christ I'm made righteous which in turn gives me a true heart that is sprinkled clean and made pure and becomes an abode for the Holy Spirit. I believe:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Christ who knew no sin was made sin and we who knew no righteousness were made the righteousness of God in christ. In the simplest sense - a trade was made. Jesus took on our sin and we took on His righteousness, so when God looks at us He now sees new creations who are righteous, not depraved sinners.



sue244 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 1:29:33 PM)

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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ORIGINAL: sue244

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Except that a large part of the church believes it's an allegory.


If a million people believe the wrong thing is it still wrong?

Song of Solomon is clearly about sex between a married couple, to appy it to God and Israel, or Christ and the Church is just sick and not to mention bad hermenutics.


Yes, I understand that is your opinion.


An Opinion I that many theologians I have great respect for believe.
But if you want to believe that a love story/poem about married love and sex is about God and you fine. But don't be shocked and outraged when people call you on a eros love view of God.



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