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AoibhinnGrainne -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/30/2008 2:25:21 PM)
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Sue,
You said:
"An Opinion I that many theologians I have great respect for believe.
But if you want to believe that a love story/poem about married love and sex is about God and you fine. But don't be shocked and outraged when people call you on a eros love view of God."
Which theologians?
And does your opinion and your respect for them makes them correct? Have you searched out their theology to ensure it is without error (ie, infallible)?
Well, I offer you this from CRTA (reformed.org):
Notes on Song of Solomon
From the Original 1599 Geneva Bible Notes
Song 1:2
1:2 Let {a} him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love [is] better than wine.
(a) This is spoken in the person of the Church, or of the faithful soul inflamed with the desire of Christ, whom she loves.
Song 1:3
1:3 Because of the {b} savour of thy good ointments thy name [is as] ointment poured forth, therefore do the {c} virgins love thee.
(b) The feeling of your great benefits.
(c) They that are pure in heart and conversation.
Song 1:4
1:4 {d} Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his {e} chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.
(d) The faithful confess that they cannot come to Christ, unless they are drawn.
(e) Meaning the secret joy that is not known to the world.
Song 1:5
1:5 I [am] {f} black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of {g} Kedar, as the{h} curtains of Solomon.
(f) The Church confesses her spots and sin, but has confidence in the favour of Christ.
(g) Kedar was Ishmael's son, of whom came the Arabians that dwelt in tents.
(h) Which within were all set with precious stones and jewels.
Song 1:6
1:6 Look not upon me, because I [am] {i} black, because the {k} sun hath looked upon me: {l} my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; [but] my own vineyard have I not {m} kept.
(i) Consider not the Church by the outward appearance.
(k) The corruption of nature through sin and afflictions.
(l) My own brethren who should have most favoured me.
(m) She confesses her own negligence.
Song 1:7
1:7 Tell me, {n} O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou makest [thy flock] to rest at noon: for why should I be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of {o}
thy companions?
(n) The spouse feeling her fault flees to her husband only for comfort.
(o) Whom you have called to the dignity of pastors, and they set forth their own dreams instead of your doctrine.
Song 1:8
1:8 {p} If thou knowest not, O thou fairest among women, go forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents.
(p) Christ speaks to his Church, bidding them that are ignorant to go to the pastors to learn.
Song 1:9
1:9 I have compared thee, O my love, to a company of horses in Pharaoh's {q} chariots.
(q) For your spiritual beauty and excellency there was no worldly treasure to be compared to you.
Song 1:12
1:12 {r} While the king [sitteth] at his table, my spikenard sendeth forth its fragrance.
(r) The Church rejoices that she is admitted to the company of Christ.
Song 1:13
1:13 A bundle of myrrh [is] my wellbeloved to me; he shall lie all night between my {s} breasts.
(s) He will be most dear to me.
Song 1:16
1:16 Behold, thou [art] fair, my beloved, yea, pleasant: also our {u} bed [is] green.
(u) That is, the heart of the faithful, in which Christ dwells by his Spirit.
The above clearly shows that Song is an allegory about the Church and Christ. The Reformers knew that and taught that and have continued to teach that for, what?, 400+ years? I am going to guess you've not read much Puritan literature.
Song is also a marriage manual. And a love poem. Scripture is like that. Let him who has eyes, see.
Some folk are fearful of loving God with all their everything whilst keeping that love as pure, holy, and undefiled as possible. They demand Song cannot be anything but human, carnal (albeit married...although there seems to be a third party in there later on...) love.
Marriage exists as a picture of Trinity...relationship...Christ and His Church. It exists for more than "Man being alone" because Man wasn't alone! Man walked in the Garden in the cool of the evening with God. Was God telling Adam He wasn't enough?
Or is marriage only for procreation...be fruitful and multiply and make lots of little Christians?
No.
There is much more to marriage than that. Everything in all of life points to God.
Even this...
You are mistaken that the Song of Solomon is only a marriage manual.
Now, to the Open Theism thing:
A) Yes, it sounds as if Eldredge is an Open Theist. I would hesitate to call someone a liar when they have clearly answered a question asked of them. Eldredge says he is not an Open Theist. We must take his word for that, regardless of our personal thoughts about that, or else we are slandering him and calling him a liar. Same with Oprah.
If the Church wishes to condemn him (and Oprah, for that matter) as a heretic, then convene an Ecumenical Council. But only God can judge the heart. We are called to look at teachings...and fruit. Not individuals as such.
In our desire to grasp ahold of "right doctrine" with all our might, we have become very judgmental folk; drawing the wagons 'round tighter and tighter and tighter to the point where Protestants in the US have created 25,000 denominations. How sad!!! Ye we continue on our merry chase for "right doctrine" whilst killing each others reputations...not to mention hearts.
It's wrong. It promotes gossip...talking about others when they cannot respond, and slander...besmirching another's reputation because they have ben judged to be outside someon'e interpretation of "right doctrine".
Where has the Church come to???
Let me ask you something: are you a supralapsarian or an infralapsarian?
In other words, did God create Adam and Eve to fall; that was His Plan all along and the rest, shall we say, is history...the unfolding of redemptive history.
OR...did God give Adam and Eve the opportunity NOT to fall, but when they did His plan kicked into gear and redemptive history continued?
2. Did God create evil?
The presuppositions you hold, your world- and life-view has a lot to do with how you read and understand things.
I am not saying this to be difficult. Or to defend Eldredge. At this point, I honestly don't care about this argument at all.
But I do care about things taken out of context, folk getting hurt by all this, Christians acting unChrist-like over something so small in the larger scheme of things, and having at each other at each other's expense.
This is NOT how Brothers in Christ are to act...IMNSHO.
Grace. We are to act in Grace with and towards each other even as we dig after the truth in all things. We are not supposed to be adversaries. We already have one. We are supposed to be on the same side.
How beautiful it is when Brothers dwell together in unity. Psalm 133:1
Aoi.
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