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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 2:59:39 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
There's a difference between being making a mistake [which every one of us does because we are not inerrant] and consistently and rebelliously teaching contrary to scripture. That is the distinction I am making. Mistakes do not a false teacher make, especially when they are willing to be corrected through scripture. Teaching consistent and blatant error time after time even after being corrected and shown the truth does put someone into the false teacher category. If false teaching was just a collection of lots of mistakes we were supposed to overlook, God would never have warned us against false teachers and told us to reject them.
Thank you. You absolutely worded it better than the hack job I did in my last post.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:11:43 PM
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lw9
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Well, did you notice how many times I edited that post because I couldn't get the words out right, either?? LOL!!
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:16:53 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
I must respectfully disagree. Again, no author, except the Holy Spirit, is inerrant. Every single book we read, regardless of the author, has error in it. Am I to reject, wholeslae, every single theologian, apologist, Christian writer, because I believe s/he has written something in error?
Still not entirely correct, please allow me to explain. There are indeed books/authors out there that are Christian and do not have any error. Error meaning there is no fault in the core essentials of Christian doctrine. There are indeed preachers, teachers, etc.. that are sound in their belief positions. No, their words are not Gospel, they are not "revelation knowledge" but they are indeed sound for a self-professing Christian to not have an issue reading them.
Okay...then by your definition, I will no longer read anything by a Dispensationalist (Darby), an Arminian (Wesley), a Hyper-Calvinist (Hoeksema), a Christian Reconstructionist (Chilton), or...
because I believe these world-views/theologies/ideologies/philosophies have, at their core, biblical error.
quote:
lw9
There's a difference between being making a mistake [which every one of us does because we are not inerrant] and consistently and rebelliously teaching contrary to scripture. That is the distinction I am making. Mistakes do not make a false teacher, especially when they are willing to be corrected through scripture. Teaching consistent and blatant error time after time even after being corrected and shown the truth does put someone into the false teacher category. If false teaching was just a collection of lots of mistakes we were supposed to overlook, God would never have warned us against false teachers and told us to reject them.
No matter what spin is put on it, though, Eldredges' message remains the same: follow your heart and desires because they are now good.
Ummm...not so much. But I hesitate to repeat myself. We will have to charitably agree to disagree, yes?
Also, see above.
May God bless you as you continue your journey towards sanctification...
Aoi.
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Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:19:14 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Okay...then by your definition, I will no longer read anything by a Dispensationalist (Darby), an Arminian (Wesley), a Hyper-Calvinist (Hoeksema), a Christian Reconstructionist (Chilton), or...
because I believe these world-views/theologies/ideologies/philosophies have, at their core, biblical error.
Do you understand the difference between the core essentials of Christianity and secondary issues?
Do you?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:24:50 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Okay...then by your definition, I will no longer read anything by a Dispensationalist (Darby), an Arminian (Wesley), a Hyper-Calvinist (Hoeksema), a Christian Reconstructionist (Chilton), or...
because I believe these world-views/theologies/ideologies/philosophies have, at their core, biblical error.
Do you understand the difference between the core essentials of Christianity and secondary issues?
Do you?
Perhaps...
Let's be Good Jesuits and define our terms. Unless, of course, you have just gone off-topic by asking me this question to which I am now responding.
Question: MODERATOR~ Are we now off-topic???
So, earthless, what are the core essentials of Christianity as you define them?
Then I will tell you what I believe are the core essentials, and we will be on the same page to continue our discussion. Yes?
Aoi.
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Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:30:21 PM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
I was under the impression that it was against the rules to bad-mouth other Christians, other Christian ministries, and other Christian Forums. So, my question becomes:
How is this thread surviving???
For the record, there's no TOS against speaking against ministries, public figures, etc. The TOS is against attacking the character or motives of other posters on these forums.
If the TOS were about everyone (public figures and ministries included), then no one would ever be able to point out any errors, even about cults (that everyone agrees are cults).
Personally I don't like people badmouthing another Christian forum. I think it's in really bad taste and fosters an "us vs. them" mentality, when in reality we're all in the same family. Yeah, there may be different rules. Two different playgrounds, two different sets of rules. That's fine. But to attack specific people on another forum or the entire forum itself is... mean.
Now I'm gonna go over here into this corner and play with my Legos. Anyone care to join me? But since they're my Legos, I will warn you that I may have a few rules regarding how to play with them... 
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"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the fire department generally uses water." ~Unknown
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:36:22 PM
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earthless
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Aoi,
God forbid it be a matter of what I say they are, but instead what the context of Scripture reveals. The doctrines of the Trinity, the unique deity of Jesus Christ, and the resurrection are among the essentials of Christianity.
They represent the core of Christian belief as contained within the pages of Scripture, and they compose what is commonly called "orthodox theology." And thus, heresies are teachings which openly deny any one of these fundamental doctrines. Examples of heresies include the Mormon doctrine that there are many gods, and that you may become one, as well as the Jehovah's Witnesses, who clearly deny the Trinity.
It may be the case, however, that a particular teaching does not overtly deny basic biblical theology, but is nevertheless dangerously inconsistent with an orthodox confession of faith. A good example of this would be the "prosperity" teachers who are growing like wildfire within Christian denominations - doctrines of this variety are referred to as aberrations.
Thus, a group may be orthodox in its central theology while at the same time maintain teachings and practices that are clearly at odds with essential Christian theology.
Once we realize that doctrines never function in isolation but, instead, work together to form the structure of a belief system, it becomes easy to understand how one doctrinal error can eventually lead to the corruption of other doctrines as well.
As Walter Martin used to put it, "Error begets error, and heresy begets heresy." (2 Peter 2:2). As Christians we are responsible, therefore, to make sure that the precious doctrines that God has given us remain sound (1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Timothy 4:2-5).
If you're interested in a more "meaty" response/perspective on this topic please let me know and I can direct you to a more extensive reading.
< Message edited by earthless -- 4/24/2008 3:42:33 PM >
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:49:24 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3450
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quote:
I was under the impression that it was against the rules to bad-mouth other Christians, other Christian ministries, and other Christian Forums. So, my question becomes:
Well then you need to take a little better tour of the RH site. They have a little thread that not only badmouths other Christians they name names of people on CW...that is if you are up to wading through foul language and some of the nastiest name calling and accusations imaginable. If that's the kind of love y'all promote, I'll pass thank you very much.
But, yes, we are commanded to examine every other Christian ministry and teacher (which is what that site is based on...the teachings/books of John Eldredge) lest we fall prey to false teachers:
1 "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at* His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." II Timothy 4
1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber." II Peter 2
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"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
I weep for those who won't experience this because they have been deceived.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:50:32 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11644
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quote:
I was under the impression that it was against the rules to bad-mouth other Christians, other Christian ministries, and other Christian Forums. So, my question becomes:
How is this thread surviving???
It is against the rules of this forum to personally attack other members of this community.
It is not against the rules of the forums to discuss ministries and teachers, postitively or negatively.
The distinction does seem to elude some posters, and they do not understand why their posts are removed and others are allowed to remain.
However, I am thinking this thread is to discuss Ransomed Hearts Ministries, so please keep your posts on that topic--the man and his teachings.
Posts about their forums v. our forums are off-topic.
If one prefers another forum, they are free to post there. If they prefer ours, they are free to post here, provided they abide by the TOS they agreed to when they signed up.
Hope that clears up some of the confusion.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:54:46 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
I was under the impression that it was against the rules to bad-mouth other Christians, other Christian ministries, and other Christian Forums. So, my question becomes:
How is this thread surviving???
It is against the rules of this forum to personally attack other members of this community.
It is not against the rules of the forums to discuss ministries and teachers, postitively or negatively.
The distinction does seem to elude some posters, and they do not understand why their posts are removed and others are allowed to remain.
However, I am thinking this thread is to discuss Ransomed Hearts Ministries, so please keep your posts on that topic--the man and his teachings.
Posts about their forums v. our forums are off-topic.
If one prefers another forum, they are free to post there. If they prefer ours, they are free to post here, provided they abide by the TOS they agreed to when they signed up.
Hope that clears up some of the confusion.
Sorry, Kate. I posted my little comment about the forums before I saw you and Trish's admonition...back to the topic which is John Eldredge and his teachings I believe!!
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
I weep for those who won't experience this because they have been deceived.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 3:56:45 PM
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Ps103
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No problem, Kat!
Being as I have never heard of the man (or most of the other people discussed in this folder) could someone provide a brief summary of his beliefs?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:01:03 PM
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landabee
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John Eldredge, Wikipedia listing
Was looking around and found this page on Mr. Eldredge and Psycho-heresy. Parts were thought provoking.
< Message edited by landabee -- 4/24/2008 4:14:31 PM >
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"God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts."~Unknown
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it. " ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:10:29 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
John Eldredge, Wikipedia listing
Thanks, Bee!
From the above:
quote:
Some of the self-affirming passages in his books have caused leaders in certain Evangelical churches to question the perspective that defines Eldredge's style. As an example Christianity Today quotes Rut Etheridge III, a seminarian in the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America who finds Eldredge to have an "alarmingly unbiblical worldview."[
Would someone descibe his worldview?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:17:18 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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Thank you, earthless, for your reply.
Please...do not take offense by my insistance that we do the "Jesuit thing" by defining our terms. Too often, in the Church today, my use of the word "Grace" may mean something quite different from your use of the word "Grace".
And Christian Orthodoxy is, indeed, becoming ever more difficult to find in our post-modern world of relativism. It is a time where "everyone is doing what is right in their own sight".
Having said that:
I would most definitely agree that the doctrine of the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the resurrection are essential to the Christian faith.
Where establishing biblical orthodoxy becomes a bit sticky, is when one tries to apply "thus saith the Lord" to areas such as baptism (a sign of the covenant? yes, if you are a covenant theologian; no, if you believe Scripture teaches Believer's Baptism); eschatology (chiliasm was soundly refuted in 381 at the Council of Nicea); the doctrines of salvation (which "flower" are you?).
Yes, I would agree, that orthodoxy allows us to commune with a wide-range of Believers in Christ.
But how wide-or how narrow-is Orthodoxy?
One's working definition of the essentials of the Christian Faith, one's presuppositions, will colour everything; it becomes one's life-and-world view. So, if you truly believe that a non-essential like preterism is essential, you will find very little common ground with a dispensationalist, and will, most likely, find them to be in error.
Same with your view on baptism, worship, drinking wine, and the doctrines of salvation.
I have lived with the belief that the Nicene Creed is a good place to start. But even that is not without it's controversy; namely, the filioque clause. <sigh> So, I go back to the original, read the ecumenical arguments, and I drop the clause. That allows me to, at least, converse with my EO brothers.
Unless, of course, Eastern Orthodoxy is also a cult?
As one narrows one's definition of Orthodox Christian Doctrine, then one is left with what God says in His Scriptures in the original languages. Personally, I don't have a problem with that as long as I understand those languages, I understand their historical and cultural context (mikveh is a good place to start) and I understand how those principles apply to me, my life, my sanctification, and the Church today.
<whew>
So...
Is John Eldredge a heretic?
Seems to be the $64,000 question.
Have you read all his books and been to an event?
He's never denied any of the core essentials of the Christian faith. I may not personally agree with all his conclusions, but I don't agree with Augustine (justifiable war comes to mind...) either.
And I find a whole lot more heresy in dispensationalism and the "doctrines" of the "Rapture" than I do the Ransomed Heart...
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:24:46 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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From Ransomed Heart Ministries:
We believe the Bible to be the inspired, only, infallible, inerrant, authoritative Word of God.
We believe in the One True God, The Sovereign, eternal Creator of all that exists, both seen and unseen. God is eternally existent in three persons, yet one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.
We believe God created mankind in His image. Adam and Eve, the first human beings, chose to rebel against God and go their own way. As a result, all of mankind became separated from God; the image of God in man was distorted; mankind became subject to the power of the devil; and the sinful nature was passed on to all their progeny. Because of original sin, unregenerate human beings are incapable of pleasing or commending themselves to God. The only remedy for mankind's pitiful predicament is redemption through faith in Jesus Christ.
We believe that when a person exercises saving faith in Christ he passes, immediately, out of spiritual death into spiritual life and from the old creation into the new, a new nature and a new heart imparted; being justified freely by grace, he is accepted before the Father as Christ, His Son, is accepted and loved as Christ is loved--having his place and portion linked to Christ and one with Christ - forever.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is
enabled to live a godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of, both, the saved and the lost--they who are saved unto the resurrection of life and they who are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ransomed Heart Ministries: Statement of Faith
Aoi.
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Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:26:37 PM
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Kath
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I have to admit I'm puzzled, I thought the OP was asking about this guy and what he teaches but for some reason his forums keeps getting brought up.
Dear OP, I have to admit I never even heard of this guy until recently.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:30:04 PM
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landabee
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I haven't read anything by Mr. Eldredge or his wife.
I actually didn't know that many of the threads that we see growing like weeds in the men's folder and the relationship folder and the church folder seem to be spawned by the "masculinity" issue within the church and Christian men... as identified by Mr. Eldredge.
Although I agree that our churches are not effectively ministering to men all of the time.... I don't think it is as simplistic as we are turning men into pansies.
Now that I know the basis for these schools of thought lie with Mr. Eldredge. Ugh!
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"God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts."~Unknown
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it. " ~ CourdeLeon
Goofy
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:31:18 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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I wasn't gonna say anything but...
quote:
That is how he bears the image of God." Eldredge holds up Braveheart hero William Wallace as an example of a real man, in contrast to the late Mister Rogers, the soft-spoken children's TV personality, as a weak, modem Christian man.
So, we're all aware that the movie Braveheart is not terribly historically accurate and that the William Wallace portrayed in it is much closer to a fairy tale Prince Charming than the actual man, William Wallace.
So, he's comparing a fictionalized figure and real person and finding the fiction a better example than a real person?
I didn't read to the end of the link, I'll have to take it in doses.
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If any left over I buy food and clothes.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:33:15 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel18.html
Interesting article, Landabee.
quote:
Eldredge discounts and mocks the "nice guy" who works at a regular job, and implies that a man who doesn't rappel from rock cliffs, shoot whitewater rapids, or hunt elk is living according to his false self and not his liberated true and wild self It is nice that Eldredge and his companions have found fulfillment living in the wilderness, but Eldredge extrapolates from his own outdoor experiences more than he should in developing his contention that God is a wild, unpredictable, risk-taking deity, that man is made in His image to be the same.
I read most of Wild and Heart because a friend wanted me to. I think to an extent, his book is in reaction to the weakened state of manhood found in many churches today. I thought his "solution" was not exactly Biblical, but rather seemed in a way like a modern man search for identity in mere adventure.
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IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:42:36 PM
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THEREDCAPE
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The facilitator’s guide for small-group leaders who use Eldredge’s Wild at Heart videos urges them not to allow any man to dominate the group and to beware of “the doctrine cop” who is zealous about doctrinal purity. This is contrary to Acts 20:27-31; Rom. 16:17; Eph. 4:11-14; 1 Tim. 1:3; Titus 1:9, and many other Scriptures that require teachers to protect the flock from false doctrine.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:43:10 PM
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Kat_D
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From the same article, Rut Etheridge observes:
"We live in a day and age in which sincerity is valued more than truth ... Undoubtedly many have benefited from Wild at Heart, but at what cost? To buy completely or even partially into the core principles of this book is to abandon crucial aspects of biblical Christianity for an ill-conceived masculine self-realization. A work cannot be judged by its superficial benefits; after all, many cults boast of happy families and fulfilled lives, but they are rooted in false teaching and thus are deceiving those who look to them for help. We must look beneath the surface to the biblical integrity of a work or movement to determine its true value, and Wild at Heart is sorely lacking in biblical integrity. ... Of those who would view this critique as unnecessary and harmful, I ask, Can something be truly helpful if it is not based on and guided by God's truth? ... Another more fundamental question must also be asked. If something is not true according to the Scriptures, should we as Christians want anything to do with it, regardless of how much we think we get from it? If the price of our happiness is the violation of God's Word, and we are willing to pay that price, then [sic] we have revealed ourselves as worshippers not of God, but of ourselves. ... I hope, as worshippers ol' the One who is the way, the truth, and the life, that we cling to that truth no matter what falls apart around us, and in so doing prove that we love our Savior and His Word more than we love ourselves. God has given us what we need to know from Him in Scripture, and if we would just take the time to truly know His word, we will ... find the true help and healing we need. Men will learn how to be real men, women how to be real women, and we will be working toward a goal beyond our own personal feeling of fulfillment. ... We'll be working toward the goal to which every Christian aspires, the glorification of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
This to me was the essence of what is essentially wrong with the Eldredge books/teachings as are so many of the teachings running rampant in the church today.
It's not about us, it's about Him!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
I weep for those who won't experience this because they have been deceived.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:44:19 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
I wasn't gonna say anything but...
quote:
That is how he bears the image of God." Eldredge holds up Braveheart hero William Wallace as an example of a real man, in contrast to the late Mister Rogers, the soft-spoken children's TV personality, as a weak, modem Christian man.
So, we're all aware that the movie Braveheart is not terribly historically accurate and that the William Wallace portrayed in it is much closer to a fairy tale Prince Charming than the actual man, William Wallace.
So, he's comparing a fictionalized figure and real person and finding the fiction a better example than a real person?
I didn't read to the end of the link, I'll have to take it in doses.
Why do we watch non-Christian movies...assuming we do? Do the occasional movie speak to us about redemption? You know: boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl and they live happily ever after.
That is our story.
Adam meets God. Adam sins and loses God. God sends Jesus. Jesus saves Adam. Adam lives with God forever, happily ever after.
Duh.
We love these things because they speak to us. They are modern parables. William Wallace is like... Maria von Trapp (also fictionalised in the Sound of Music) is like... Screwtape is like... and so on.
Dr Francis Schaeffer found that God spoke to us through art, music, literature. The demise of modern man is written in the output of our culture: dark, twisted, alienated. Man lost, and separated from God in a dark and twisted abyss.
Scripture talks about the morning stars singing. Natural Law. The beauty of God in His holiness. We do ourselves a dis-service when we compartmentalise our lives and separate the secular and the sacred. All of life is sacred, given us by God, and given back to Him in humble gratitude.
And, BTW, Scripture is full of metaphor, anthropomorphising God, who is Pure Spirit: Father, Everlasting Arms, Walking in the Cool of the Evening...
Aoi.
EDITED TOS 6
< Message edited by Kath -- 4/24/2008 5:46:40 PM >
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Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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