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ORIGINAL: sagacity

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Eldredge and Ransomed Heart

I viewed Ransmed Heart web page....."Hear what the Spirit is saying unto the congregation." Many have read the bible, yet walk as Pharicess in there understanding. Come let us be in the Spirit on the Lord's Day as John was at the isle of Patmos. John wrote what was signified unto him "The Revelation Of Jesus Christ" . This revelation is for the church as the morning star araises in our hearts. Hear what the Spirit is saying!!!!

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ORIGINAL: crankius

REDCAPE,

I hope you don't mind if I point this out: I'm afraid your posts are making you sound like you just want to complain about their website.

You have avoided my question, and maybe you will answer it now--exactly what makes you think Ransomed Heart Ministries is a cult?

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everything who doesn't ascribe to the Five Basic Doctrines of The Fundamentals of 1909.

Remember those? It gave "fundamentalism" it's name...

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ORIGINAL: Kat_D

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ORIGINAL: sagacity

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Eldredge and Ransomed Heart

I viewed Ransmed Heart web page....."Hear what the Spirit is saying unto the congregation." Many have read the bible, yet walk as Pharicess in there understanding. Come let us be in the Spirit on the Lord's Day as John was at the isle of Patmos. John wrote what was signified unto him "The Revelation Of Jesus Christ" . This revelation is for the church as the morning star araises in our hearts. Hear what the Spirit is saying!!!!

Anybody got a translation for that?

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ORIGINAL: earthless

Apart from the many teachings he espouses which are problematic.. Eldredge teaches men to listen for God’s leading apart from the Scripture. He claims that God speaks even through carnal, worldly things:

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“God is intimately personal with us and he speaks in ways that are peculiar to our own quirky hearts--not just through the Bible, but through the whole creation. To Stasi he speaks through movies. To Craig he speaks through rock and roll. … God’s word to me comes in many ways--through sunsets and friends and films and music and wilderness and books. But he’s got an especially humorous thing going with me and books. I’ll be browsing through a secondhand book shop when out of a thousand volumes one will say, ‘Pick me up’--just like Augustine in his Confessions. Tolle legge--take up and read” (Eldredge, Wild at Heart, p. 200).

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ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne

Thank you, earthless, for your reply.

Please...do not take offense by my insistance that we do the "Jesuit thing" by defining our terms. Too often, in the Church today, my use of the word "Grace" may mean something quite different from your use of the word "Grace".

And Christian Orthodoxy is, indeed, becoming ever more difficult to find in our post-modern world of relativism. It is a time where "everyone is doing what is right in their own sight".

Having said that:

I would most definitely agree that the doctrine of the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the resurrection are essential to the Christian faith.

Where establishing biblical orthodoxy becomes a bit sticky, is when one tries to apply "thus saith the Lord" to areas such as baptism (a sign of the covenant? yes, if you are a covenant theologian; no, if you believe Scripture teaches Believer's Baptism); eschatology (chiliasm was soundly refuted in 381 at the Council of Nicea); the doctrines of salvation (which "flower" are you?).

Yes, I would agree, that orthodoxy allows us to commune with a wide-range of Believers in Christ.

But how wide-or how narrow-is Orthodoxy?

One's working definition of the essentials of the Christian Faith, one's presuppositions, will colour everything; it becomes one's life-and-world view. So, if you truly believe that a non-essential like preterism is essential, you will find very little common ground with a dispensationalist, and will, most likely, find them to be in error.

Same with your view on baptism, worship, drinking wine, and the doctrines of salvation.

I have lived with the belief that the Nicene Creed is a good place to start. But even that is not without it's controversy; namely, the filioque clause. <sigh> So, I go back to the original, read the ecumenical arguments, and I drop the clause. That allows me to, at least, converse with my EO brothers.

Unless, of course, Eastern Orthodoxy is also a cult?

As one narrows one's definition of Orthodox Christian Doctrine, then one is left with what God says in His Scriptures in the original languages. Personally, I don't have a problem with that as long as I understand those languages, I understand their historical and cultural context (mikveh is a good place to start) and I understand how those principles apply to me, my life, my sanctification, and the Church today.

<whew>

So...

Is John Eldredge a heretic?

Seems to be the $64,000 question.

Have you read all his books and been to an event?

He's never denied any of the core essentials of the Christian faith. I may not personally agree with all his conclusions, but I don't agree with Augustine (justifiable war comes to mind...) either.

And I find a whole lot more heresy in dispensationalism and the "doctrines" of the "Rapture" than I do the Ransomed Heart...

Aoi.

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ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne

Context. It's an important concept. And since Eldredge is being accused of taking Scripture out of context and, in some instances (as stated above), making it to fit his personal theology, let's look at a bit of Scripture in it's context:

Jeremiah 17:5-11 ~ 5 Here is what ADONAI says: "A curse on the person who trusts in humans, who relies on merely human strength, whose heart turns away from ADONAI. 6 He will be like a tamarisk in the 'Aravah - when relief comes, it is unaffected; for it lives in the sun-baked desert, in salty, uninhabited land. 7 Blessed is the man who trusts in ADONAI; ADONAI will be his security. 8 He will be like a tree planted near water; it spreads out its roots by the river; it does not notice when heat comes; and its foliage is luxuriant; it is not anxious in a year of drought but keeps on yielding fruit. 9 "The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick. Who can fathom it? 10 I, ADONAI, search the heart; I test inner motivations; in order to give to everyone what his actions and conduct deserve." (CJB)

Ezekial 11:14-21 ~ 14 Then the word of ADONAI came to me: 15 "Human being, it is to your kinsmen - your brothers, your relatives and the whole house of Isra'el - that the people living in Yerushalayim have said, 'Get away from ADONAI! This land has been given to us to possess!' 16 Therefore, say that Adonai ELOHIM says this: 'True, I removed them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries; nevertheless, I have been a little sanctuary for them in the countries to which they have gone.' 17 Therefore, say that Adonai ELOHIM says this: '"I will gather you from the peoples and collect you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give the land of Isra'el to you." 18 Then they will go there and remove all its loathsome things and disgusting practices, 19 and I will give them unity of heart. "I will put a new spirit among you." I will remove from their bodies the hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh; 20 so that they will live by my regulations, obey my rulings and act by them. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts go after the heart of their loathsome things and disgusting practices, I will bring [the consequences of] their ways on their own heads,' says Adonai ELOHIM."

Isaiah 61:1-3 ~ 1 The Spirit of Adonai ELOHIM is upon me, because ADONAI has anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted; to proclaim freedom to the captives, to let out into light those bound in the dark; 2 to proclaim the year of the favor of ADONAI and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn, 3 yes, provide for those in Tziyon who mourn, giving them garlands instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, a cloak of praise instead of a heavy spirit, so that they will be called oaks of righteousness planted by ADONAI, in which he takes pride.

The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick...ie, sick unto death. Who can fathom it? I, God, search the heart and test the inner motivations to give everyone what their actions and conduct deserve.

Hmmm...

There is MORE to this verse than that bit which is constantly quoted, yes? It seems to me that the Lord, through Jeremiah, is saying to us that we fool ourselves because, even when we have the best of intentions, the most altruistic of motives, our hearts are mortally sick. Only God can truly judge who we really are. This sounds like a call for true humility. Not post-salvific eternally depraved worm-hood.

But what else does Scripture say about this?

Matthew 5:17-20 ~ 17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

Luke 6:40-45 ~ 40 A talmid is not above his rabbi; but each one, when he is fully trained, will be like his rabbi. 41 So why do you see the splinter in your brother's eye, but not notice the log in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me remove the splinter from your eye,' when you yourself don't see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye; then you will see clearly, so that you can remove the splinter from your brother's eye! 43 "For no good tree produces bad fruit, nor does a bad tree produce good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit -- figs aren't picked from thorn bushes, nor grapes from a briar patch. 45 The good person produces good things from the store of good in his heart, while the evil person produces evil things from the store of evil in his heart. For his mouth speaks what overflows from his heart.

John 12:37-41 ~ 37 Even though he had performed so many miracles in their presence, they still did not put their trust in him, 38 in order that what Yesha`yahu the prophet had said might be fulfilled, "ADONAI, who has believed our report? To whom has the arm of ADONAI been revealed?" 39 The reason they could not believe was -- as Yesha`yahu said elsewhere -- 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they do not see with their eyes, understand with their hearts, and do t'shuvah, so that I could heal them." 41 (Yesha`yahu said these things because he saw the Sh'khinah of Yeshua and spoke about him.)

Acts 2:14-36 ~ 14 Then Kefa stood up with the Eleven and raised his voice to address them: "You Judeans, and all of you staying here in Yerushalayim! Let me tell you what this means! Listen carefully to me! 15 "These people aren't drunk, as you suppose - it's only nine in the morning. 16 No, this is what was spoken about through the prophet Yo'el: 'ADONAI says: "In the Last Days, I will pour out from my Spirit upon everyone. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my slaves, both men and women, will I pour out from my Spirit in those days; and they will prophesy. 19 I will perform miracles in the sky above and signs on the earth below blood, fire and thick smoke. 20 The sun will become dark and the moon blood before the great and fearful Day of ADONAI comes. 21 And then, whoever calls on the name of ADONAI will be saved."'c 22 "Men of Isra'el! Listen to this! Yeshua from Natzeret was a man demonstrated to you to have been from God by the powerful works, miracles and signs that God performed through him in your presence. You yourselves know this. 23 This man was arrested in accordance with God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge; and, through the agency of persons not bound by the Torah, you nailed him up on a stake and killed him! 24 "But God has raised him up and freed him from the suffering of death; it was impossible that death could keep its hold on him. 25 For David says this about him: 'I saw ADONAI always before me, for he is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken. 26 For this reason, my heart was glad; and my tongue rejoiced; and now my body too will live on in the certain hope 27 that you will not abandon me to Sh'ol or let your Holy One see decay. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; you will fill me with joy by your presence.' 29 "Brothers, I know I can say to you frankly that the patriarch David died and was buried - his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that one of his descendants would sit on his throne, 31 he was speaking in advance about the resurrection of the Messiah, that it was he who was not abandoned in Sh'ol and whose flesh did not see decay. 32 God raised up this Yeshua! And we are all witnesses of it! 33 "Moreover, he has been exalted to the right hand of God; has received from the Father what he promised, namely, the Ruach HaKodesh; and has poured out this gift, which you are both seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into heaven. But he says, 35 'ADONAI said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."' 36 Therefore, let the whole house of Isra'el know beyond doubt that God has made him both Lord and Messiah - this Yeshua, whom you executed on a stake!"


Have we been set free from our captivity? healed of our disease? Have our hearts of stone been replaced with hearts of flesh? Are the foreskins of our hearts finally circumcised in the Lord (Jeremiah 4:4 ~ 4 "People of Y'hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim, circumcise yourselves for ADONAI, remove the foreskins of your heart! Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire, burning so hot that no one can quench it, because of how evil your actions are.)?


Romans 7:14-25 ~ 14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit; but as for me, I am bound to the old nature, sold to sin as a slave. 15 I don't understand my own behavior - I don't do what I want to do; instead, I do the very thing I hate! 16 Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good. 17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me. 18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. I can want what is good, but I can't do it! 19 For I don't do the good I want; instead, the evil that I don't want is what I do! 20 But if I am doing what "the real me" doesn't want, it is no longer "the real me" doing it but the sin housed inside me. 21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me! 22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah; 23 but in my various parts, I see a different "torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "torah," which is operating in my various parts. 24 What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death? 25 Thanks be to God [, he will]! - through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah."

Paul, in the "do-be-do-be-do" section of Romans, explains how sin, in the "old nature", has control of his "various parts". YET there is another part of Paul, in his "inner self" (eso: the internal inner man; the soul, conscience), that is "at war" with the "sin torah" that is operating "in my various parts".

So...

Is our inner self, our soul (heart? nous? perhaps?), transformed by the saving grace of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit through salvation in Christ and His redemptive work? OR are we still totally depraved, in our hearts, minds, and bodies, clothed in righteousness given us by Christ?

Tough question which goes to the heart of the matter. Theological worlds collide!

If Christ came to complete the Law and the Prophets, does that mean we are still that which is described under the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 17:9) Or do we take our identity from that which has been described under the New Covenant, that we are healed of our diseases, set free, with new hearts of flesh, washed clean, circumcised; we are to be holy because I am holy (1Peter 1:14-16 ~ 14 As people who obey God, do not let yourselves be shaped by the evil desires you used to have when you were still ignorant. 15 On the contrary, following the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in your entire way of life; 16 since the Tanakh {Leviticus 11:45, 19:2,20:26} says, "You are to be holy because I am holy.").

In any case, I think it disingenuous that a cathetical definition of who we are and what we are created for is inferred to be Scripture. (The chief end of Man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever...).

Is this what Scripture teaches or the Shorter Catechism? Are we careful not to elevate secondary standards to the level of Scripture?

But I digress...

Perhaps, the point that you'all may be missing, is that once a Man is saved in Christ then what? In the post-modern American Church, as I understand from what I have read and heard anecdotally, most men are bored to tears. Most marriages are failing miserably. Many men hate their jobs.

Why?

Could it be that there is something in the masculine heart that would like to find a way to bring the joy of the Lord into his daily, mundane, routine, commute? And so on and so on into every aspect of his life???

How?

John Eldredge is at least making a stab at an answer. Or, he's identified a bit of the problem: realising that men have abdicated the church in astonishingly large numbers for a long time now...

Francis Schaeffer, for example, chucked post-war America and (ad)ventured forth to start L'Abri with his Beauty, Edith, at his side, fighting the intellectual demons of nihilism and philosophical post-modernism. And, by God's Grace, getting accomplishing much.

What are you'all doing?

Aoi.

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ORIGINAL: THEREDCAPE

If scripture is not the defining factor, then things will quickly get off base, as has obviously happened with this group. Sola Scriptura!
Your "experience" can Not be a guide instead of the Bible, God's Holy Word! Not using scripture as the ultimate resource is why fringe groups and New Age whackos gain a foothold in the church.

Pop psychology with a little holy water thrown on it will not measure up to scripture.

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SD456: Sadly, you won't have people argue with scripture on these forums usually, like you just did. They just continually say things like, "red-flags are all over the place. I'm running from it!" without any scriptural backing or being able to indepthly study the whys of what they believe and why they are running. And they'll use lots of quotes from other internet sources that also don't use scripture to argue.