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"More than anything else in all creation...".

Forgive me, but I thought Jesus was begotten...not made.

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She is the incarnation of the Beauty of God.

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I agree, it is a problem of language and vocabulary. In today's parlance, romance means something very different than it did in Webster's day!

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Okay, we've all been there many times. But what Paul concludes is just astounding: ‘I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it' (Rom 7:20 NLT). Did you notice the distinction he makes? Paul says, ‘Hey, I know I struggle with sin. But I also know that my sin is not me (italics his)-this is not my true heart.' You are not your sin; sin is no longer the truest thing about the man who has come into union with Jesus. Your heart is good. ‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you ...'(Ezek. 36:26). The Big Lie in the church today is that you are nothing more than ‘a sinner saved by grace." You are a lot more than that. You are a new creation in Christ. The New Testament calls you a saint, a holy one, a son of God. In the core of your being you are a good man. Yes, there is a war within us, but it is a civil war. The battle is not between us and God; no, there is a traitor within who wars against the true heart fighting alongside the Spirit of God in us... . (144)

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ORIGINAL: crankius

aoi,

The hoops you jump through to defend Eldredge are amusing to me.

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ORIGINAL: Kath

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"More than anything else in all creation...".

Forgive me, but I thought Jesus was begotten...not made.

I edited my post before you responded.

From the book

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She is the incarnation of the Beauty of God.

Is Jesus not God incarnate? Does He not portray the Beauty of God?

Do you think woman embodies the Glory of God? More so than man? How can mere humans embody the Glory of God? Only Jesus through us.

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I agree, it is a problem of language and vocabulary. In today's parlance, romance means something very different than it did in Webster's day!

Eldredge lives today doesn't he? Do you think, given what else is said about his book that he is using a definition from 1828?

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ORIGINAL: crankius

I thought I might go back and address some of what aoi has stated.

The scriptures aoi is posting en masse are not supporting her argument.

The heart is deceitful. Being redeemed by Christ does not suddenly make the flesh disappear. We are justified in Christ, but we are not perfected in the flesh. We as believers are in a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. This is why scripture admonishes us in Galatians to obey the Spirit so that we will not be led by the flesh.

You have to consider--at what point do you become a perfected being? When will you be done moving from glory to glory? At what point can you trust your heart over God's Word? Ask yourself, why does Scripture not tell us to live life based on what our heart tells us? There is no “follow your heart for it leads you to all goodness” verse.


aoi had cited Romans. Read this quote from Eldredge to understand why aoi interpreted Romans the way she did:

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Okay, we've all been there many times. But what Paul concludes is just astounding: ‘I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it' (Rom 7:20 NLT). Did you notice the distinction he makes? Paul says, ‘Hey, I know I struggle with sin. But I also know that my sin is not me (italics his)-this is not my true heart.' You are not your sin; sin is no longer the truest thing about the man who has come into union with Jesus. Your heart is good. ‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you ...'(Ezek. 36:26). The Big Lie in the church today is that you are nothing more than ‘a sinner saved by grace." You are a lot more than that. You are a new creation in Christ. The New Testament calls you a saint, a holy one, a son of God. In the core of your being you are a good man. Yes, there is a war within us, but it is a civil war. The battle is not between us and God; no, there is a traitor within who wars against the true heart fighting alongside the Spirit of God in us... . (144)

Eldredge is wrong--you are not a good man. You are only good because of the righteousness of Christ. You are a new creation in Christ. That makes you a sinner, saved by grace. Romans 3:21-24 explains how we receive Christ's righteousness from our faith in Christ. It is through faith that His righteousness is imputed to us, “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.”

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We are not righteous in ourselves--we have Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

In short, Eldredge confuses justification and sanctification.

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Obviously, you know little abou7t the writings of the Apostolic Fathers in the first couple of centuries of the Church.

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Try to not ascribe motive to my thoughts, okay?

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I do not necessarily espouse this view.

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ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne

Context. It's an important concept. And since Eldredge is being accused of taking Scripture out of context and, in some instances (as stated above), making it to fit his personal theology, let's look at a bit of Scripture in it's context:

Jeremiah 17:5-11 ~ 5 Here is what ADONAI says: "A curse on the person who trusts in humans, who relies on merely human strength, whose heart turns away from ADONAI. 6 He will be like a tamarisk in the 'Aravah - when relief comes, it is unaffected; for it lives in the sun-baked desert, in salty, uninhabited land. 7 Blessed is the man who trusts in ADONAI; ADONAI will be his security. 8 He will be like a tree planted near water; it spreads out its roots by the river; it does not notice when heat comes; and its foliage is luxuriant; it is not anxious in a year of drought but keeps on yielding fruit. 9 "The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick. Who can fathom it? 10 I, ADONAI, search the heart; I test inner motivations; in order to give to everyone what his actions and conduct deserve." (CJB)

Ezekial 11:14-21 ~ 14 Then the word of ADONAI came to me: 15 "Human being, it is to your kinsmen - your brothers, your relatives and the whole house of Isra'el - that the people living in Yerushalayim have said, 'Get away from ADONAI! This land has been given to us to possess!' 16 Therefore, say that Adonai ELOHIM says this: 'True, I removed them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries; nevertheless, I have been a little sanctuary for them in the countries to which they have gone.' 17 Therefore, say that Adonai ELOHIM says this: '"I will gather you from the peoples and collect you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give the land of Isra'el to you." 18 Then they will go there and remove all its loathsome things and disgusting practices, 19 and I will give them unity of heart. "I will put a new spirit among you." I will remove from their bodies the hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh; 20 so that they will live by my regulations, obey my rulings and act by them. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts go after the heart of their loathsome things and disgusting practices, I will bring [the consequences of] their ways on their own heads,' says Adonai ELOHIM."

Isaiah 61:1-3 ~ 1 The Spirit of Adonai ELOHIM is upon me, because ADONAI has anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted; to proclaim freedom to the captives, to let out into light those bound in the dark; 2 to proclaim the year of the favor of ADONAI and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn, 3 yes, provide for those in Tziyon who mourn, giving them garlands instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, a cloak of praise instead of a heavy spirit, so that they will be called oaks of righteousness planted by ADONAI, in which he takes pride.

The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick...ie, sick unto death. Who can fathom it? I, God, search the heart and test the inner motivations to give everyone what their actions and conduct deserve.

Hmmm...

There is MORE to this verse than that bit which is constantly quoted, yes? It seems to me that the Lord, through Jeremiah, is saying to us that we fool ourselves because, even when we have the best of intentions, the most altruistic of motives, our hearts are mortally sick. Only God can truly judge who we really are. This sounds like a call for true humility. Not post-salvific eternally depraved worm-hood.

But what else does Scripture say about this?

Matthew 5:17-20 ~ 17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

Luke 6:40-45 ~ 40 A talmid is not above his rabbi; but each one, when he is fully trained, will be like his rabbi. 41 So why do you see the splinter in your brother's eye, but not notice the log in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me remove the splinter from your eye,' when you yourself don't see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye; then you will see clearly, so that you can remove the splinter from your brother's eye! 43 "For no good tree produces bad fruit, nor does a bad tree produce good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit -- figs aren't picked from thorn bushes, nor grapes from a briar patch. 45 The good person produces good things from the store of good in his heart, while the evil person produces evil things from the store of evil in his heart. For his mouth speaks what overflows from his heart.

John 12:37-41 ~ 37 Even though he had performed so many miracles in their presence, they still did not put their trust in him, 38 in order that what Yesha`yahu the prophet had said might be fulfilled, "ADONAI, who has believed our report? To whom has the arm of ADONAI been revealed?" 39 The reason they could not believe was -- as Yesha`yahu said elsewhere -- 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they do not see with their eyes, understand with their hearts, and do t'shuvah, so that I could heal them." 41 (Yesha`yahu said these things because he saw the Sh'khinah of Yeshua and spoke about him.)

Acts 2:14-36 ~ 14 Then Kefa stood up with the Eleven and raised his voice to address them: "You Judeans, and all of you staying here in Yerushalayim! Let me tell you what this means! Listen carefully to me! 15 "These people aren't drunk, as you suppose - it's only nine in the morning. 16 No, this is what was spoken about through the prophet Yo'el: 'ADONAI says: "In the Last Days, I will pour out from my Spirit upon everyone. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my slaves, both men and women, will I pour out from my Spirit in those days; and they will prophesy. 19 I will perform miracles in the sky above and signs on the earth below blood, fire and thick smoke. 20 The sun will become dark and the moon blood before the great and fearful Day of ADONAI comes. 21 And then, whoever calls on the name of ADONAI will be saved."'c 22 "Men of Isra'el! Listen to this! Yeshua from Natzeret was a man demonstrated to you to have been from God by the powerful works, miracles and signs that God performed through him in your presence. You yourselves know this. 23 This man was arrested in accordance with God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge; and, through the agency of persons not bound by the Torah, you nailed him up on a stake and killed him! 24 "But God has raised him up and freed him from the suffering of death; it was impossible that death could keep its hold on him. 25 For David says this about him: 'I saw ADONAI always before me, for he is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken. 26 For this reason, my heart was glad; and my tongue rejoiced; and now my body too will live on in the certain hope 27 that you will not abandon me to Sh'ol or let your Holy One see decay. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; you will fill me with joy by your presence.' 29 "Brothers, I know I can say to you frankly that the patriarch David died and was buried - his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that one of his descendants would sit on his throne, 31 he was speaking in advance about the resurrection of the Messiah, that it was he who was not abandoned in Sh'ol and whose flesh did not see decay. 32 God raised up this Yeshua! And we are all witnesses of it! 33 "Moreover, he has been exalted to the right hand of God; has received from the Father what he promised, namely, the Ruach HaKodesh; and has poured out this gift, which you are both seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into heaven. But he says, 35 'ADONAI said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."' 36 Therefore, let the whole house of Isra'el know beyond doubt that God has made him both Lord and Messiah - this Yeshua, whom you executed on a stake!"


Have we been set free from our captivity? healed of our disease? Have our hearts of stone been replaced with hearts of flesh? Are the foreskins of our hearts finally circumcised in the Lord (Jeremiah 4:4 ~ 4 "People of Y'hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim, circumcise yourselves for ADONAI, remove the foreskins of your heart! Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire, burning so hot that no one can quench it, because of how evil your actions are.)?


Romans 7:14-25 ~ 14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit; but as for me, I am bound to the old nature, sold to sin as a slave. 15 I don't understand my own behavior - I don't do what I want to do; instead, I do the very thing I hate! 16 Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good. 17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me. 18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. I can want what is good, but I can't do it! 19 For I don't do the good I want; instead, the evil that I don't want is what I do! 20 But if I am doing what "the real me" doesn't want, it is no longer "the real me" doing it but the sin housed inside me. 21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me! 22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah; 23 but in my various parts, I see a different "torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "torah," which is operating in my various parts. 24 What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death? 25 Thanks be to God [, he will]! - through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah."

Paul, in the "do-be-do-be-do" section of Romans, explains how sin, in the "old nature", has control of his "various parts". YET there is another part of Paul, in his "inner self" (eso: the internal inner man; the soul, conscience), that is "at war" with the "sin torah" that is operating "in my various parts".

So...

Is our inner self, our soul (heart? nous? perhaps?), transformed by the saving grace of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit through salvation in Christ and His redemptive work? OR are we still totally depraved, in our hearts, minds, and bodies, clothed in righteousness given us by Christ?

Tough question which goes to the heart of the matter. Theological worlds collide!

If Christ came to complete the Law and the Prophets, does that mean we are still that which is described under the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 17:9) Or do we take our identity from that which has been described under the New Covenant, that we are healed of our diseases, set free, with new hearts of flesh, washed clean, circumcised; we are to be holy because I am holy (1Peter 1:14-16 ~ 14 As people who obey God, do not let yourselves be shaped by the evil desires you used to have when you were still ignorant. 15 On the contrary, following the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in your entire way of life; 16 since the Tanakh {Leviticus 11:45, 19:2,20:26} says, "You are to be holy because I am holy.").

In any case, I think it disingenuous that a cathetical definition of who we are and what we are created for is inferred to be Scripture. (The chief end of Man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever...).

Is this what Scripture teaches or the Shorter Catechism? Are we careful not to elevate secondary standards to the level of Scripture?

But I digress...

Perhaps, the point that you'all may be missing, is that once a Man is saved in Christ then what? In the post-modern American Church, as I understand from what I have read and heard anecdotally, most men are bored to tears. Most marriages are failing miserably. Many men hate their jobs.

Why?

Could it be that there is something in the masculine heart that would like to find a way to bring the joy of the Lord into his daily, mundane, routine, commute? And so on and so on into every aspect of his life???

How?

John Eldredge is at least making a stab at an answer. Or, he's identified a bit of the problem: realising that men have abdicated the church in astonishingly large numbers for a long time now...

Francis Schaeffer, for example, chucked post-war America and (ad)ventured forth to start L'Abri with his Beauty, Edith, at his side, fighting the intellectual demons of nihilism and philosophical post-modernism. And, by God's Grace, getting accomplishing much.

What are you'all doing?

Aoi.

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Anyway, I offer the alternate definition because it has been my experience, after attending two Captivating retreats in 2006, that this is how the word "romance" was used by Stasi Eldredge and Team: the idea of an epic story with God as the "Hero" going to great lengths to rescue us, His chosen Beloveds, "from behind enemy lines" so we could worship Him and enjoy Him forever. I believe Eastern Orthodoxy also embraces this idea (Frederica Mathewes-Green wrote an essay about this about a year ago).

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In Chapter 6, The author relates our relationship to God in a sexual way by using the Song of Solomon.

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~To Kath: I would need to know Chapter 6 of which book because I have never heard this taught ever at an Eldredge-led event.

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ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne

Yes. You are both absolutely correct in your judgment of the post-apostolic, post-modern Church.

As for me, and my House, we will serve the Lord.

Having said that, and truly hoping this is not off-topic as I am simply posting in the same vein as the other posters, above, I would like to reassure all that I am not following Apollos, or Paul, or Eldredge, but the true and living God, through salvation in the resurrected and ascended Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. My foundation of faith can be readily summed up in the following Scripture verses. I will leave you to look them up in their entirety:

Genesis 1:1-Revelation 22:20.

To make it a bit easier to the casual reader who chooses to gloss over this post, the Early Church Fathers gave us the following condensed version, used to catechise seekers and to refute heresies:

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.
Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων· φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο.
Τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα.
Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα.
Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρα κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς.
Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός.
Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.
Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζωοποιόν, τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον, τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον, τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν.
Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.
Ὁμολογῶ ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν.
Προσδοκῶ ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν.
Καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος.
Ἀμήν.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
light from light
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Essence with the Father,
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation,
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the scriptures;
he ascended into Heaven
and is seated at the right of the Father:
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins,
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

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It was hard to see exactly what they believe, however.

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We believe the Bible to be the inspired, only, infallible, inerrant, authoritative Word of God.

We believe in the One True God, The Sovereign, eternal Creator of all that exists, both seen and unseen. God is eternally existent in three persons, yet one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.

We believe God created mankind in His image. Adam and Eve, the first human beings, chose to rebel against God and go their own way. As a result, all of mankind became separated from God; the image of God in man was distorted; mankind became subject to the power of the devil; and the sinful nature was passed on to all their progeny. Because of original sin, unregenerate human beings are incapable of pleasing or commending themselves to God. The only remedy for mankind's pitiful predicament is redemption through faith in Jesus Christ.

We believe that when a person exercises saving faith in Christ he passes, immediately, out of spiritual death into spiritual life and from the old creation into the new, a new nature and a new heart imparted; being justified freely by grace, he is accepted before the Father as Christ, His Son, is accepted and loved as Christ is loved--having his place and portion linked to Christ and one with Christ - forever.

We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.

We believe in the resurrection of, both, the saved and the lost--they who are saved unto the resurrection of life and they who are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.

We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

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ORIGINAL: Kath

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"For the root of all holiness is Romance" (p. 113)

I'd love to know where this is in scripture.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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ORIGINAL: Kath

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"For the root of all holiness is Romance" (p. 113)

I'd love to know where this is in scripture.

He's speaking of love. He uses the term 'romance' as the active form of love. God romancing us and us romancing God back - as in the allegory of the Song of Solomon. I have no problem with using that term.

Used with the understanding that he's speaking about love than it is a very biblical concept. The root of all holiness IS love. In fact, everything we do is to be for love, even our obedience to God is to come out of love.

Too many in the church have a very difficult time understanding metaphors and similies and in allowing individuals to use these metaphors in their language to describe what the bible speaks about.

God has no problem with it.