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SD456 -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/28/2008 1:08:37 PM)
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ORIGINAL: crankius
Let's just gather up some of the quotes from Eldredge in this thread so far:
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#1
Okay, we've all been there many times. But what Paul concludes is just astounding: ‘I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it' (Rom 7:20 NLT). Did you notice the distinction he makes? Paul says, ‘Hey, I know I struggle with sin. But I also know that my sin is not me (italics his)-this is not my true heart.' You are not your sin; sin is no longer the truest thing about the man who has come into union with Jesus. Your heart is good. ‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you ...'(Ezek. 36:26). The Big Lie in the church today is that you are nothing more than ‘a sinner saved by grace." You are a lot more than that. You are a new creation in Christ. The New Testament calls you a saint, a holy one, a son of God. In the core of your being you are a good man. Yes, there is a war within us, but it is a civil war. The battle is not between us and God; no, there is a traitor within who wars against the true heart fighting alongside the Spirit of God in us... . (144)
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#2
Deep in a man's heart are some fundamental questions that simply cannot be answered at the kitchen table. Who am I? What am I made of? What am I destined for? It is fear that keeps a man at home where things are neat and orderly and under his control. But the answers to his deepest questions are not to be found on television or in the refrigerator. Out there on the burning desert sands, lost in a trackless waste, Moses received his life's mission and purpose. He is called out, called up into something much bigger than he ever imagined, much more serious than CEO or "prince of Egypt." Under foreign stars, in the dead of night, Jacob received a new name, his real name. No longer is he a shrewd business negotiator, but now he is one who wrestles with God. The wilderness trial of Christ is, at its core, a test of his identity. "If you are who you think you are ..." If a man is ever to find out who he is and what he's here for, he has got to take that journey for himself.
He has got to get his heart back.
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#3
And thus the heart of a man is driven into the high country, into remote places, like a wounded animal looking for cover. Women know this, and lament that they have no access to their man's heart. Men know it, too, but are often unable to explain why their heart is missing. They know their heart is on the run, but they often do not know where to pick up the trail. The church wags its head and wonders why it can't get more men to sign up for its programs. The answer is simply this: We have not invited a man to know and live from his deep heart.
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#4There are three desires I find written so deeply into my heart I know now I can no longer disregard them without losing my soul. They are core to who and what I am and yearn to be. I gaze into boyhood, I search the pages of literature, I listen carefully to many, many men, and I am convinced these desires are universal, a clue into masculinity itself. They may be misplaced, forgotten, or misdirected, but in the heart of every man is a desperate desire for a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue.
And here is more from the chapter 1 link to Wild at Heart that I posted previously:
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#5
Eve was created within the lush beauty of Eden's garden. But Adam, if you'll remember, was created outside the Garden, in the wilderness. In the record of our beginnings, the second chapter of Genesis makes it clear: Man was born in the outback, from the untamed part of creation. Only afterward is he brought to Eden. And ever since then boys have never been at home indoors, and men have had an insatiable longing to explore. We long to return; it's when most men come alive.
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#6
But the soul refuses to be harnessed; it knows nothing of Day Timers and deadlines and P&L statements. The soul longs for passion, for freedom, for life.
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#7
Christianity, as it currently exists, has done some terrible things to men. When all is said and done, I think most men in the church believe that God put them on the earth to be a good boy. The problem with men, we are told, is that they don't know how to keep their promises, be spiritual leaders, talk to their wives, or raise their children. But, if they will try real hard they can reach the lofty summit of becoming ... a nice guy. That's what we hold up as models of Christian maturity: Really Nice Guys. We don't smoke, drink, or swear; that's what makes us men. Now let me ask my male readers: In all your boyhood dreams growing up, did you ever dream of becoming a Nice Guy? (Ladies, was the Prince of your dreams dashing ... or merely nice?)
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#8
But God made the masculine heart, set it within every man, and thereby offers him an invitation: Come, and live out what I meant you to be. Permit me to bypass the entire nature vs. nurture "is gender really built-in?" debate with one simple observation: Men and women are made in the image of God as men or as women. "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them" (Gen. 1:27). Now, we know God doesn't have a body, so the uniqueness can't be physical. Gender simply must be at the level of the soul, in the deep and everlasting places within us. God doesn't make generic people; he makes something very distinct-a man or a woman. In other words, there is a masculine heart and a feminine heart, which in their own ways reflect or portray to the world God's heart.
God meant something when he meant man, and if we are to ever find ourselves we must find that. What has he set in the masculine heart?
There is a LOT wrong with all of these quotes, scripturally and doctrinally and theologically. It presents an unbiblical view of God, of man, and of what man's purpose is.
The fact that many can't see what is wrong makes me all the more certain that many men and women have failed miserably at studying true apologetics and having a solid grasp of God, man, and truth, according to scripture.
Eldredge has given the wisdom of the world and packaged it in Christian bows, and consumer Christianity has bought it up. His writing contains nothing that the world isn't already selling as truth.
Crankius, I would have to disagree with you. I find nothing unbiblical about his comments. In fact, I find many of them very biblical. (forgive me for the long post, but it can't be helped.)
Start with quote # 1: In Ezek 36:26, God promises to give us a new heart and put a new spirit in us. I believe that is true at the new birth. Jesus now dwells in this new heart by faith. I don't believe the Holy Spirit will make his dwelling in a place (our hearts) that is depraved and still deceitful above all things. I believe our heart is regenerated and begins the transformation process just as our mind is by the washing of the word. I agree completely with Eldredge that the big lie in the church today is that we are still sinners who are saved by grace. We WERE sinners, but we are now saints and children of God who still fight a battle within us between our new spirit and our old flesh (but I don't believe that our flesh is our heart).
Quote # 2: There is nothing in this statement that is at all unbiblical. Moses truly did find his identity by going 'out' into the wilderness. Jacob left his home and in the dead of night wrestled with God and discovered who is was meant to be. This idea that we need to be willing to 'journey out' to find out who we are meant to be is very biblical. You may not relate to it at all, Crankius, which it sounds like most of your problem with Eldredge stems from - you simply can't relate to what he's saying - but that doesn't make what he's saying 'untruth' for myriad other men.
Quote # 3: When Eldredge speaks of the 'heart' he is speaking about the core of who we are, the core of our souls and personality. I agree fully with Eldredge that our society and church at large stifle men and try to force them into nice little boys, while ignoring how God truly created men. You can argue this point, but there is nothing unbiblical in believing the way Eldredge believes. And you just have to look around to see the 'absence of men' in church. I think Eldredge hit the nail on the head as to why.
Quote #4: There is nothing unbiblical about Eldredge believing what the 3 desires of men are. Again this is a subject that you either will relate to or not. Obviously you don't. Eldredge shares from his experience in life, and there is nothing wrong with that. Overall, reading through centuries of literature and poems and epic stories, I tend to agree with Eldredge. Men have at the core of their being, created by God himself, the desire for adventure and to fight battles and rescue beauties. The bible is FULL of God giving men battles to fight and ideals to strive for that transcend themselves. That is still needed today.
Quote #5: While this quote I would agree is Eldredge giving us his take of creation and why, in his opinion, men have a need for adventure, I don't believe there is anything unbiblical in it. God definately created men to be explorers (as some women have had this desire also).
Quote #6: This I totally agree with!! And I agree for all humankind that we were not created to be tied to cubicles and run by clocks and engagement calendars. It goes against the very core of who God made us to be - spontaneous, adventuring people who are not afraid to leave the quietness of our homes and 'journey out' to where God would have us go. God created our souls to long for freedom and life, definately very biblical.
Quote #7: Ditto from my comment about quote #3. The church does not offer much of anything but BOREDOM to men (and to women for that matter).
Quote #8: This is very, very biblical IMO. God definately created a masculine heart and feminine heart do go with each gender, just as we have different needs. There is nothing selfish in understanding that a man's heart was created for some very specific purposes, especially when those purposes are so intrinsically tied to a man's place in the kingdom of God and the exploits God wants that man to do in His name.
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ORIGINAL: crankius
There is a LOT wrong with all of these quotes, scripturally and doctrinally and theologically. It presents an unbiblical view of God, of man, and of what man's purpose is.
So what exactly is biblically incorrect with these quotes? Where is this huge unbiblical view of God and man and man's purpose?
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The fact that many can't see what is wrong makes me all the more certain that many men and women have failed miserably at studying true apologetics and having a solid grasp of God, man, and truth, according to scripture.
Or they have a very solid grasp of the bible and God is speaking to them through Eldredge exactly the way they need to be spoken to so they can 'grasp' exactly what God is wanting them to grasp. It's obvious that you can't relate to Eldredge. Which is completely ok, but because you can't relate to him does not make him unbiblical by any means.
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