Watered-Down Gospel (Full Version)

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bcredwagon -> Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 1:03:10 PM)

I've been concerned lately about what I perceive as a watered-down gospel being taught to us by not only nationally recognized ministers, but our own local pastors too.

It began with "Seeker Churches". The concept was to make church as comfortable and easy-going as possible so people attending wouldn't feel threatened or uneasy by church. The music was upbeat and contemporary and people were encouraged to "come as you are". The problem with these churches, one of which I used to belong to, was the salvation message was lacking and I rarely saw anyone get saved. The message of us being sinners and Christ dying on the cross for our sins was missing. Never once did I hear that if we didn't repent of our sins and turn from them would we go to hell when we died. To me, that's the main purpose of church, to get people saved.

Instead, all I heard were messages about how much God loves us and if we live a good life, all will be ok. These messages make you feel good, but where's the message of the gospel? Yes, God loves us, but all will not be ok unless we recognize and admit we are sinners and ask Jesus to forgive us and save us. A church might be growing and bringing in a lot of members, but what good is it if those members die in their sins and spend an eternity apart from God?

One of the largest churches in America preaches this watered-down message and my heart goes out to all of those who attend this church and never hear the main thrust of God's word preached. Everyone leaves the church happy and content, but not challenged to ask God for forgiveness. They believe they are already living a life pleasing to God.

Am I the only one who feels this way? If I'm wrong, please let me know so I can sleep better at night. The souls of millions of americans cry out to me.



HisCovenant -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 1:08:01 PM)

No, you're not the only one. I am scared for what I see going on in the church and the way that we don't really know God. We sure do gossip about Him a lot, but we just don't know Him.



sue244 -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 1:09:01 PM)

No you are not the only one that feels that way. I agree with you assement of the American church and how a lot of places water down the gospel in the name of growth.



whisper -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 1:10:06 PM)

I can only speak for myself, but I've attended a church faithfully for the last 5 years which I can say with confidence does not water down the gospel. In that time I have on occasion accompanied friend to their churches as well, and again there was no compromise in the message of salvation that I heard.

I am also in Canada, though - there's a lot of darkness here, but I've heard much truth. I'm sure that the gospel is being watered down in these parts, but nowhere I've been.



rcjames -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 1:57:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whisper

I can only speak for myself, but I've attended a church faithfully for the last 5 years which I can say with confidence does not water down the gospel. In that time I have on occasion accompanied friend to their churches as well, and again there was no compromise in the message of salvation that I heard.

I am also in Canada, though - there's a lot of darkness here, but I've heard much truth. I'm sure that the gospel is being watered down in these parts, but nowhere I've been.


So I am to understand that the Churches in Canada are taking a had stance against sin (all sin) declaring that it has no place in a believers live.

The those Churches are tell the folks that they must come out from amongst the non-Christian and live a live acceptable and well pleasing to God.

That a Christian must, and I mean must be obedient to Scripture and that includes the following verses;

(Rom 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

(Rom 12:2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Wow, that is wonderful, I think I will take a trip to the Northland.

Thanks
RC



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 3:57:56 PM)

I have a different perspective on this (as usual), which maybe is mainly a matter of definitions. I think that the gospel is watered down when it becomes "God helps those who help themselves. You do your part and God will do His part." As Paul said in Galatians 2:15-16, "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

I think that the fundamental problem is that the law is watered down. People are told that "Jesus is the answer," but what is the question? People are not told that they are sinners under the wrath of God, and there is nothing they can do to save themselves (because by observing the law no one will be justified). Instead, they are told that they need to learn how to make the right choices to become better people, so they will feel happier and more fulfilled, have better self esteem, and get on God's good side. This leads to a watered-down gospel, which is not a message of justification by grace through faith on account of the work of Christ, reconciling us to the Father, but rather a program of self-help -- seven steps to this and five steps to that. Jesus doesn't save us. He serves as an example to follow so that with a little help from the Holy Spirit we can save ourselves.



HisCovenant -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 4:34:27 PM)

I think it's just a different way fo saying the same thing. My wording is that "we don't know God and have made idols in the image of God" and you are spelling out a thing that we don't know- that we have mixed up. I see exactly what you are talking about.

And we'll search any book to find the answers to life other than the Bible. Some of those books are Biblical and some are just loosely based on the Bible with passages and promises taken out of context, but we wouldn't know that because we don't know God's revelation and His expectations for ourselves. We're too busy gossiping about God to know Him.



deliveredarling -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 4:55:11 PM)

Yes, it is being watered down. That people will go to hell, that they are, ssssh (as I whisper so as not to offend) sinners, that they must repent, is not near as feel good as He loves you, He accepts you as you are, come fellowship in our social club, etc. The Bible told us this would happen. if we actually spent more time in our Bibles, we would not be caught unaware in these churches.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine: but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires". 2 Tim 4:3
The messages mention Jesus so it sounds like it is good. When you listen a little deeper to the context, it gets twisted, because people have pulled scripture out of it's context and formed their own thoughts and opinions. Very, very deceptive. Granted that all churches are not this way, some are just more concerned about filling pews and offering plates than saving souls.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/25/2008 9:49:49 PM)

quote:

It began with "Seeker Churches".


There are those, no doubt, but not every big church is this.

quote:

Never once did I hear that if we didn't repent of our sins and turn from them would we go to hell when we died.


If repentence saves us then Jesus died horribly for nothing. Repentence comes from being saved. If you are saved, you will...always...repent. If not then not. The reason why you have not heard this is becaise it is very poor doctrine....works based religion.

quote:

a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.


Absolutely correct.

quote:

He accepts you as you are


Thank God He does. If not none of us would be saved. However, we must not stay where we are. IF one is Holy Spirit indwellt, they will not stay where they are, they will seek out the Word of God, pray, change their lives to be more Christ like and love God and love others like themselves.

If striving to follow the rules was all our relationship with God is, then there would not have been a need for Jesus to climb that cross. Its not about rules, first. Its about loving God more than your sin.

That....brings obediance. Not hitting someone over the head with you have to be perfect all the time. If you slip up just once you lose your salvation and will go straight to hell.....oh, unless you "repent". Your ability to say something to re-save you.

I'll tell ya something. You can't save yourself. You can't keep your salvation by your effort and you cannot lose your salvation by a matter of will or ability. If you are saved, you are saved. You CANNOT turn from God. It is impossible.

Getting wet won't save you either. Baptism and repentence have a lot in common. Both come from loving God enough to obey Him. Both come from God saving us. Without salvation all the repenting and baptisms won't do a thing for ya. You can't repent without God. You can't repent of your sins and be saved unless its God that leads you to do it. If you could save yourself then what Jesus did on that cross is null and void.

www.cbglades.com



BibleL7 -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 4:30:32 AM)

You are not the only one concerned. Yet I dont know if I would say watered down Gospel but as Paul called it another Gospel which is not really a Gospel. If we dont realize we are sinners then there is no need for salvation. As to saying that the main purpose to the church to get people save not really in the context of a group of believers gathering together in a congregation. The main purpose for gathering in a congregation would be to Worship and Praise the Lord Honor the Lord and learn of the Lord and help each other grow in the Lord. Yes the Gospel should be preached in case there are some who may not know the Lord but not the main purpose. Now as to the church being the believers yes they are to spread the Gospel and as for getting people saved only the Lord can do that. We are to witness and teach others of the need for salvation, by spreading the Word to others but we plant and water but only God gives the increase. As for 'Seeker friendly' they aren't really looking to spread the Gospel but get people in and make money and if they teach the Word they avoid anything that will offend which is not teaching truth.

Just the opinion of a small town preacher



deliveredarling -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 7:24:35 AM)

Thanks Son In Me for elaborating on the "He accepts you as you are" comment. I didn't explain it and I should have. So thank you!



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 12:06:03 PM)

quote:

If repentence saves us then Jesus died horribly for nothing. Repentence comes from being saved. If you are saved, you will...always...repent. If not then not. The reason why you have not heard this is becaise it is very poor doctrine....works based religion.


SonInMe,

Let me give a slightly different (Reformation theology) perspective on this. It is true that repentance comes from being saved, but repentance is also necessary for being saved in the first place. Where the theology from the sixteenth century Protestants differs from what you typically hear today is that this pre-conversion repentance isn't the sinner's contribution to being saved, based on the exercise of his free will. Rather, through the preaching of the law, the Holy Spirit creates an attitude of repentance in the sinner, whereby he changes his mind about himself, acknowledging that he is indeed a sinner deserving of eternal condemnation, and there is nothing he can do to get himself out of this predicament. He is then open to receive the message of the gospel, which does not include any accusations or threats, since these are part of the law. Rather, the gospel is pure gift, based on what God has done for us. When law is mixed back in with the gospel, this doesn't strengthen it, it waters it down. So both law and gospel are necessary, but once the law has done its job, it's time for pure gospel, not gospel watered down by adding requirements of the law to it.

(I'm not really arguing against anything you said, just adding something about the role of repentance in conversion.)



figmentPez -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 3:07:48 PM)

In my opinion, the source of this watered-down gospel is apathy about the nature of God. Christians have decided to put their actions and feelings over their knowledge of God. We have tried to study what we should do and feel, and ignored study of who HE IS. Christians have bought into the idea that it doesn't matter exactly who God is, as long as we get the words "Jesus Christ" correct. We've bought into the lie that God doesn't really say much definitive about Himself in scripture. Far too many Christians have decided that God is too confusing for them, and that studying scripture won't really tell us anything about God so we need to focus on what it says about humans.

Don't think I'm right? Take a look around the God folder in the Theology section. You'll find all sorts of heresy about the nature of God being taught, and very few Christians standing up and teaching the truth of scripture, because there are very few Christians who care about who God has said that HE IS. I'm not sure why this should be. The early Church certainly was focused on the identity of God. The earliest creeds, the Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed, and other writings, were almost entirely about who God is and what scripture tells us about Him. And there is a wealth in scripture telling us who God is, and why it's important that we know God for who He has revealed Himself to be. Time and time again in scripture, God encourages us to know Him, but modern Christianity thinks that it's good enough to try and know what we're supposed to do, without knowing Him who tells us what is right to do.

Colossians 1:10
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Have we forgotten that we are to increase in our knowledge of God?

Colossians 2:2
that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

The mystery of the incarnation, how God can become flesh and die for us, is not one that must remain uknown, but God tells us that we can have true knowledge about the Son of God.

2 Peter 1:3
seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

John 17:3
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

See how much is tied-up into knowledge of God? Eternal life is knowing the only true God! We must know God to be able to love! Everything pertaining to life and godliness is through the true knowledge of God!

1 Corinthians 15:34
Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God I speak this to your shame.

And yet, Paul still had to rebuke the Corinthians for having those among them who had no knowledge of God. Tell me, do you think this might be the exact same problem the modern church is facing? A lack of knowledge of God's revealed nature?



jn1010lf -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 7:24:47 PM)

Hello bcredwagon

"This is my Bible. I am what it says I am," Am I right? Several thousand members and two best seller book.

Might I suggest that you do a survey of Jesus' ministry. How many times did he preach repentance? My point here is that repentance should only have to be preached to a person but on time. It presumes that he has turned away from his old life and zeroed in on God's ways, right?

What happens if we get to close to fire and brimstone preaching? We are told that we are a no good low down rotten sinner week after week. No. Before repentance we held the position of sinner. But now that we're saved, we no longer have that identity because we are the righteousness in Christ. Yes we will miss the mark but the Lord picks us up and takes us along and we resume our trek towadm completion in Him.

Okay? What was the mood of those that accepted ministry from Jesus? Were they joyful? Put down? Condemned? One such man in Acts went dancing and leaping and praising God.



colliefan -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 7:43:21 PM)

quote:

Before repentance we held the position of sinner. But now that we're saved, we no longer have that identity because we are the righteousness in Christ.


Then how do you see this verse

1 Tim 1:15 (ESV) 15The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 8:55:04 PM)

I also agree with your assessment. I do go to a church with a preacher who does not water down the Gospel. As a matter of fact, it is this preachers fire and truth filled message that makes me go there. But I do understand what you are saying. Especially now, with preachers on tv becoming celebrities. It seems they worry more about offending people than speaking the truth. Well, the truth offends. Is it possible we are witnessing the great apostasy?



SonInMe1 -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 9:18:56 PM)

quote:

But now that we're saved, we no longer have that identity because we are the righteousness in Christ.


Perspectively, this is correct. However that perspective is NOT our's but God's.

Saving repentence....yes this has to happen and the reason why we repent or our sins and have the ability to do so comes from God, not a matter of will power. God saves.

That is a different scenerio than repentence after salvation. God brings us saving repentence and God influences us to repent of our sins as christians. That is one of the reasons we are Holy Spirit indwellt....the Councilor.

Is there only saving Grace? Are we under Grace as christians...or not? If so, that kinda means we must have a need for Grace. If we have Grace then....does repentence really save us...over and over? Or is repentence a reaction from being saved?



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 9:25:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

But now that we're saved, we no longer have that identity because we are the righteousness in Christ.


Perspectively, this is correct. However that perspective is NOT our's but God's.

Saving repentence....yes this has to happen and the reason why we repent or our sins and have the ability to do so comes from God, not a matter of will power. God saves.

That is a different scenerio than repentence after salvation. God brings us saving repentence and God influences us to repent of our sins as christians. That is one of the reasons we are Holy Spirit indwellt....the Councilor.

Is there only saving Grace? Are we under Grace as christians...or not? If so, that kinda means we must have a need for Grace. If we have Grace then....does repentence really save us...over and over? Or is repentence a reaction from being saved?


This is a very good way to look at it. I like it. Repentance as a reaction because we have been saved, and we are not taking Gods grace for granted?



evry1needsgod -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 10:36:57 PM)

bcredwagon:

Trust me, you're not alone. The first person that came to mind after reading your post is the man jn1010lf is speaking of. It's the 'neo' contemporary movement that has creped into Christianity and wish-washed it. It was huge at first, but its peak is over. It's slowly dying. Why? Because the presence of God is not in it. Church was not intended to be a place you go for entertainment. Too many people go to church because they like the drums, or they like the music, but could care less about the Bible. Since when has the Power of God and the Word of God (Jesus) meant nothing to people?! I for one am a little disturbed. Who's brilliant idea was it to think that you had to be mushy touchy-feely lovey-dovey ooie-gooie to get people to come to church?! Isn't the Power of God strong enough? Shouldn't our testimony and our courage to invite kids, teens, and adults to church be enough? I find too many times Christians inviting others to church or youth group using the phrase "yea, you should come...we play games and sing awesome songs...its a lot of fun." How about "Hey God changed my life, and He can change yours. Come to church with me...just once. If you don't like it, thats totally fine." But people are too embarrassed to talk about their spirituality. And deep down, they don't want to be convicted. They like coming to church to feel good about themselves. They want to sit in the pew and hear their pastor tell them to be good, and God will bless you beyond your wildest imagination.

"Everyone leaves the church happy and content"

Yup, you're right. And when they wake up the next day, they totally forget the message. Why? Because there is no substance. There is no meat. It's what they WANTED to hear, not what they NEEDED to hear.

I'm not very familiar with Canada, but in the Midwest (Chicago), Northeast (New York) and Ireland (Cork), this is a very serious problem. I spent a few weeks in Ireland last year, and I walked the streets of Cork telling anyone who walked past me about Jesus and his saving grace. When I invited them to church, more than once they asked me "Is it fun? Is there cool music?" As sad as this may be, its the truth.

Just stick by your guns and what you know to be right, and don't let the Americana, or the comfort of all your luxuries, creep into your mind. Sadly, that is the reason for this problem. People don't like feeling uncomfortable, and the Holy Spirit's conviction is not comfortable at all, but it's what we need.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/26/2008 11:29:19 PM)

quote:

Repentance as a reaction because we have been saved, and we are not taking Gods grace for granted?


I like it

[:D]



Annie64 -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/27/2008 12:50:59 AM)

A few years ago, our church went through a nationally known program that our pastor hoped would bring some new life into our church. My husband taught the pre-teen small group using the materials provided. It was evangelistic, in the sense that it was directed at unchurched people and trying to bring them to know the Lord. But my husband said afterward that he kept wondering, "when comes the part where we tell them they're sinners?"

Our present pastor decries such programs. He says they are merely marketing techniques, and do not present the whole gospel.

I didn't catch it at the time. Now it appears obvious, and I really don't know what was wrong with my discernment that I didn't see it.

It's true that our repentance isn't what saves us. Jesus' blood saves us. But we have to understand that there was a reason He died, and that's our sin.

I was once at a concert with my teenagers where the artist had the audience turn to one another and say "God's not mad at you today." At first I thought he was saying that God isn't a dictatorial judge that is just waiting for us to mess up so He can strike us. But then I thought about it further. The wrath of God is a biblical concept, so God does get angry. How could the artist know that God wasn't angry with anyone in the audience? It really made me wonder if he was denying our need for redemption in his effort to make his audience feel good.



RJR_fan -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/27/2008 8:01:17 AM)

quote:



Am I the only one who feels this way? If I'm wrong, please let me know so I can sleep better at night. The souls of millions of americans cry out to me.


There are churches that pride themselves on rigorous adherence to the truth of the Gospel, such as the Southern Baptists, who succeeded where the Presbyterians and Methodists failed -- they managed to rescue their denominational universities from the hijackers. Yet, even this noble and worthy denomination has not been able to pass a resolution calling upon parents to desert public schools -- the temples of unitarian socialist humanism.

A gospel not worth raising one's children in is watered-down, indeed. By 30 hours/week of indoctrination in another gospel over the course of 12 years.



HisCovenant -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/27/2008 10:42:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64
I didn't catch it at the time. Now it appears obvious, and I really don't know what was wrong with my discernment that I didn't see it.


I think we're so used to hearing this type of teaching that we think it is Christianity; we don't recognize it as "another gospel that is not really the gospel." I grew up in churches where the leadership was very immature and misled in some areas that should have been understood by someone tested by the church as worthy of leadership. IMO, we're growing each other up to this "other gospel" and not the Word of God. The leadership in the church fosters it and raised leaders over itself that teach it to the congregation. It's not until you get in the Word for yourself that you can have discernment or until you are mentored by someone (your husband in this case, Annie) who is mature that you begin to notice that some of what we're participating in as a church is not of God. At least, all of that is what I have experienced and seen others around me struggle with.

As to location of where this happens, I am from a metro area in the deep south, The Bible Belt, where there are 4 churches on every corner. OK, I exaggerate, but there are loads of churches here. We changed churches 4.5 years ago for this very reason, to find a church that was intentionally following Christ and not churchianty. In our metro area, we found 2 such churches and visited many on different sides of town. Now, I am sure there are more than 2, but the vast majority of churches had watered down sermons and the members were bragging on programs that they had and asking if we had read the latest pop-christianity book (based on taking verses out of context in the Bible) because it had changed the life of their church. Come on people! What about going to the Bible and straight to God for His revelation and leaving behind this pop-christianity that says what God want?, I wanted to shout!

BTW, RJR_fan, a Southern Baptist Church was the one we left 4.5 years ago for watering down the truth. That decision had less to do with the entire denom than it did with the local congregation... although one of the main reasons we looked at different denoms (and joined a different one) was because of the SBC watered-down literature that many SBC churches use as sunday school curriculum. IMO, 50 years from not the SBC will be the church voting to accept sinful practices if they don't line themselves up better with God's ways. They are on a slippery slope and I pray they dig their heels in and repent.



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/27/2008 11:48:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod



Just stick by your guns and what you know to be right, and don't let the Americana, or the comfort of all your luxuries, creep into your mind. Sadly, that is the reason for this problem. People don't like feeling uncomfortable, and the Holy Spirit's conviction is not comfortable at all, but it's what we need.


This is so true, we don't like feeling uncomfortable. I think we are so caught up in not wanting to offend someone, or have them thinking we are a religious fanatic, that instead of telling them we have great news, and hope, we say my church has great music. We just try to get them to church, but for any reason they want. Instead of coming with an open heart, they come wanting to find out about the church band. It is definitely not beyond God to work on someone like this, but he wants us to come with an open mind, and an open heart. For the right reasons, not any reason. Its like we are caught in between. Either we brow beat them with the biggest bible we own, or we are just ho hum about it. Either way we are turning people off, and they are turning to this watered down gospel because it is easy and comfy.



deliveredarling -> RE: Watered-Down Gospel (4/28/2008 6:02:38 AM)

I think that the last two posts hit it on the head. I commented to my mother the other day that if people we telling others the truth of the gospel, people would be offended. She said, " I don't know about that". I replied," nobody wants to hear that they are a sinner, nobody wants to admit that they need a Savior, and certainly nobody wants to hear that they can go to hell." She said that we don't have to put it that way. I said,
Jesus himself did." Looking at it, He was not popular, his message offended all the religious people. I guess He ruined it for them by telling them their salvation could not be from anything they had done or could do. That certainly must have busted a few bubbles.
I'm not advocating the beating the Bible, pounding the pulpit loud screaming in your face spreading of the Gospel. I didn't see Jesus do that in the Bible. His manner of telling them like it is was very peaceful yet firm. It was a take it or leave it attitude. "This is what I offer you, take it. ". and "You can't have it unless you come through me". Very simple message.
People would rather believe that if it's not positive, if it doesn't feel good, it can't be from Jesus. Does conviction ever feel good?



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