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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 4/28/2008 8:58:02 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3624
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1quote:
Never once did I hear that if we didn't repent of our sins and turn from them would we go to hell when we died. If repentence saves us then Jesus died horribly for nothing. Repentence comes from being saved. If you are saved, you will...always...repent. If not then not. The reason why you have not heard this is becaise it is very poor doctrine....works based religion.
So Peter was preaching works-salvation on the day of Shavuot/pentecost?
Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 4/28/2008 7:42:00 PM
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tiffywal
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My pastor doesn't teach a watered down gospel. His teachings come straight from the bible. We are taught the word exactly as is in the bible. I know there are some churches that don't teach from the bible and the congregation is suppose to just sit and listen.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 4/28/2008 7:57:21 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
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Yes, we have two kinds of watered down gospels, 1) the one preached to believers and 2) the one preached to unbelievers.
Men called pastors have become the mouthpiece of God/priests of God and therefore, have created a priesthood which belongs to all believers. We are a body with members of varying functions.
Christians are preached a love'em into heaven doctrine that Jesus Christ NEVER preached. He did say love your neighbor as yourself, but He also said to preach the gospel of repentance and forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The job to preach the gospel does not soley belong to men/women called pastors/preachers, but ALL believers and followers of Christ Jesus. We bring prople to church, what a long tiresome thing to do, to convince someone to come to church, tell them about some event, get them on the freeway, parking, in the pew, listening . . . when we can just tell them the gospel right then and there. Now is the acceptable time. That person could crash on their way to your church to hear that awesome message? That would be a travesty, when the minister God has truly sent into that co-worker, friend, relative's life . . . is YOU.
The second watered down gospel is the one we present to unbelievers. We sell Jesus like a time share, He has x amenities, this perk, and a wide lake in the back! Whoo hoo, you'll be so blessed! Jesus did not paint the gospel like that at all. He plainly told people it would not be easy. We need to spell out the reason for becoming a Christian. It's not to get perks. The other facet of this, is that we tell people that all they need to do is believe in Jesus. That's not all. We forget repentance, explaining what that means, it has to be a change of heart. Then we fail to disciple our converts. So much is missing from a testimony that goes, "Jesus loves you!" When Jesus Christ said the best way to broach the subject was to say, "Repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
People need the facts, not the lovey dovey stuff. Jesus knew this, that's why He never sugar coated it. Neither did Paul. Conversion comes from conviction of the Holy Spirit, not from the cleverness of words. Our job is to be the feet of those who proclaim the gospel of peace and tell the good news. Not our job to make them feel accepted. Not our job to make them feel warm and fuzzy. Truly, if Christ lives in you, and you are a follower of Him, you should do everything in love. But love is not always fuzzy. Love is also true. So we have to give the real version of the gospel.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 4/28/2008 9:18:34 PM
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colliefan
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From: Raleigh, NC
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In terms of watering down the gospel, my church is far from that point, The childrens ministry trains the kids to share their faith with their unchurched friends. Last Summer we had over 200 kids in VBS, this in a 400 member church.
Our youth pastor has made great inroads into a nearby HS and its BB team. Several of its team members have accepted the Lord and are active in the church.
In terms of watering down the gospel there are churches that do this and there are churches like mine who want to reach the lost, build up the found, and transform the city through Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 4/29/2008 8:29:49 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3680
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quote:
they were pierced to the heart,
In the scripture you posted this is the key to my point.
GOD pierced their hearts with conviction. God leads all to salvation. Without this there is no ssalvation, no leading to repentence, nothing.
There is also different repentings. There is the saving repentence, that which God births in those He saves, and repentence of sins as saved people being convicted by the Holy Spirit. Both are led by God.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 4/29/2008 3:25:03 PM
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jmjphe
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I come from western WA state, and ive attended several churches here over the past 10 years, and they do in fact teach the truthful gospels so i wouldnt say its a overpowering epedemic. However, I'm more than ready to acknowledge that there are numerous church establishments out there that do push along the "feel good cause your good" message while eluding the purposeful death of Christ for all of humanity. I would say that if we are to know anyone whos involved on some kind of church based high from churches that are preaching a watered down gospel, than to openly share with them the whole gospel, and purpose of life and of Jesus Christ using bibilical examples and fact, and to even share your experience upon accpeting christ. All through the new testament, Christ, and the other authors of the new testament, tell us to be fishers of men, we do have a sort of duty to openly and kindly share the full message to people wether through direct conversation or by the way we live even if its done outside of a chruch building.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 4/29/2008 3:26:58 PM
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1love1God1way
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As H. Richard Niebuhr would say about today's Christianity, we have a tendency to teach "a God without wrath brought people without sin into a kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross."
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/1/2008 12:50:30 PM
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terryjohn
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The are actually two takes on this in that the first is that men beleive in order to escape the fires of hell (and who wouldn't?) and it is quite possible you could get some saying, I am only going to heaven becasue I don't want to go to hell. Almost as if it is only the better of the two choices on offer. The other is that in stead of seeing God as an all consuming fire we see Him as loving, good God and fall madly in love with Him and His son pretty much like a child. Here you would want to question anyone who would preach hell fire and damnation to our sunday school classes. The end result is willing submission and obedience in love, whereas, those who are threatened and bribed into believing do so unwillingly, relunctantly, falsely, resentfully or at least begrudingly and unlovingly. Lets face it, if as an unbeleiver someone put a gun to my head and said beleive or die, I am almost certain I would believe until I too could get a gun.
Considering the fact that love is something the gospel is trying to promote and that it does preach that we are not subject to the law but in love why preach hell fire and damnation in an attempt to inspire love? Could it be that many today and not watering down the gospel in church but rather preaching to the converted? I mean the last thing the converted want to hear for the next fourty years is what misrable sinners they are. Is it what the disciples were told day after day?
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/1/2008 5:17:06 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Terryjohn: "I mean the last thing the converted want to hear.."
Key word there is 'want', and that's the issue. It doesn't matter what we want. Human nature WANTS to feel comfortable, and they WANT their friends and piers to pat them on the back and tell them how great a person they are, and the need of a Savior of our sins goes right out the door. Human nature WANTS to sin. So be VERY careful of what you WANT to hear. I'd focus on studying the Bible, and figuring out what you NEED to hear, regardless to how comfortable it may or may not be.
Hell is most certainly a part of the Gospel. Jesus Himself preached about it, so don't you think we ought to? No, I don't believe it should be ALL we preach, but it CAN NOT be excluded, which it has been in this 'watered-down gospel', to make the saved and the lost feel good about themselves. I'm sorry, but if an individual is not saved when they die, they will perish in Hell, PERIOD. To me, that's pretty darn serious, and I think we, as Christians, have an obligation to warn others, don't you think??? Jesus did...
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/4/2008 11:40:06 PM
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h_seaton
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My husband and I have moved around the country a lot, and church hunting is so hard. A lot of churches that we have attended seem to have this kind of watered down type atmosphere. It is almost like the pastor is afraid of offending somebody, so he only talks about the how God is love and such things. The church we have been attending lately is really good. The message is almost always convicting. One of the best ways to grow as a Christian is to be broken down by God and then allow him to build you back up.
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†Heather
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/5/2008 2:27:42 AM
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Annie64
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I know from experience that not everyone who comes to Christ to avoid hell comes reluctantly or begrudgingly. I didn't have very full understanding when I first came to Christ, but I did understand two things: that Jesus died on the cross to save me from my sins, and that if I didn't come to Him I would go to hell. I think that was about all I really understood, even though I grew up in a pastor's family. If I had not been taught about hell, I would have thought I could sin as much as I wanted and God would always just forgive me. I'm glad the whole truth was presented to me, and not just the more pleasant parts of it.
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On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/5/2008 3:45:04 AM
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1love1God1way
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Amen, Annie. Thank you for sharing!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/6/2008 3:07:47 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bcredwagon
I've been concerned lately about what I perceive as a watered-down gospel being taught to us by not only nationally recognized ministers, but our own local pastors too....
It’s not a “watered-down gospel”, it’s “another gospel”.
Q: What were the very first words of Christ as He started His public ministry?
A: “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt 4:17) and “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15)Q: What did the Spirit say through Paul about “another gospel”?
A:
Gal 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Call it what it is. It’s another gospel.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/6/2008 3:49:04 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1134
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
In terms of watering down the gospel, my church is far from that point, The childrens ministry trains the kids to share their faith with their unchurched friends. Last Summer we had over 200 kids in VBS, this in a 400 member church.
Our youth pastor has made great inroads into a nearby HS and its BB team. Several of its team members have accepted the Lord and are active in the church.
In terms of watering down the gospel there are churches that do this and there are churches like mine who want to reach the lost, build up the found, and transform the city through Jesus Christ.
Our church is FAR from any "watering" down, either.....
In the OP, though, it was stated, : The music was upbeat and contemporary and people were encouraged to "come as you are"
HELLO!...is there something wrong with that? There's even an "invitational" that we frequently sing called "Come as you are", which has basically the same "message" as the hymn, "Just as I am"....
There's something wrong with "upbeat"? Are we supposed to be singing like we're at a funeral? (been to far too many churches like that!)
While we do go to one of the largest churches in America (around 26,000 or so), the one that the OP is describing, is NOT the one we go to.....it's another one....totally different
VBS/youth/student ministries are certainly a priority at our church....5,000+ show up at our VBS each day (many from "unchurched" households, brought by friends who do go to the church)....
My own kids, make sure that all their friends and teachers are invited to their church programs (like the spring children's choir musical that was just this past Sunday evening), and they are always inviting their friends from school to "be their guest" at AWANA.....
When visiting many of the areas other churches (before God led us to our current church), we found several that were "watered down"......particularly even in SMALL churches.....proof that even size is NO indicator whatsoever.....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/6/2008 5:52:28 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1151
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
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The truth is that the gospel is not popular. Any church that teaches AND PRACTISES the uncompromised gospel will not be POPULAR or HUGE.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/6/2008 5:56:19 PM
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HisCovenant
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That's not necessarily true, although I don't totally disagree. I've also seen where Christians are fleeing to a church preaching the gospel and acting in obedience to it out of faith because they are so beat down by the fake churchianity where sin is condoned, the gospel is compromised, and there is not unity or any hope for unity.
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My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/6/2008 6:35:32 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
The truth is that the gospel is not popular. Any church that teaches AND [PRACTICES] the [un-compromised] gospel will not be POPULAR or HUGE.
This is true.
Matt 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
That's not necessarily true...
Yet Jesus said...
Matt 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/6/2008 6:46:18 PM
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HisCovenant
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Yes, but not by other Christians.
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My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 12:39:44 AM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1151
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From: Midwest USA
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notmycity,
Perfect scripture. In the future, I see small sects of true believers meeting in houses in fellowship that is sweet and true. Unfortunately their ranks will be small and their persecution fierce. They will be networked by the various evangelists and apostles and the church will finally get back to functioning like a body, providing for the needy in their ranks, and equipping for ministry. Only the strong will survive. Truly it has been says, to him that has more will be given, and to him who has little, even that will be taken away. It will take a strong and abundant knowledge of the gospel to stand in the last day. And these happy huge churches with programs, youth groups, and retreats will be a thing of the past--unless they turn into fully pagan strongholds, preaching the iching ears gospel.
Hiscovenant,
It really isn't that many true followers, real disciples of Christ. I think there are a lot of "christians" in name only and there are others who feel that they are living a good life. But truly following Christ and denying self . . . that's a tall order, even by Jesus Christ's standards, and there will be few that follow hard after that Way.
< Message edited by Dakotasunbeam -- 5/7/2008 12:51:36 AM >
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 9:39:01 AM
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HisCovenant
Posts: 4752
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I agree, but think that in a city of, say, 3 million that a church with 5,000+ believers is a possibility.
_____________________________
-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 11:49:02 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
notmycity,
Perfect scripture. In the future, I see small sects of true believers meeting in houses in fellowship that is sweet and true. Unfortunately their ranks will be small and their persecution fierce. They will be networked by the various evangelists and apostles and the church will finally get back to functioning like a body, providing for the needy in their ranks, and equipping for ministry. Only the strong will survive. Truly it has been says, to him that has more will be given, and to him who has little, even that will be taken away. It will take a strong and abundant knowledge of the gospel to stand in the last day. And these happy huge churches with programs, youth groups, and retreats will be a thing of the past--unless they turn into fully pagan strongholds, preaching the iching ears gospel.
True.
Interesting that you never hear of counterfeit three-dollar bills. People counterfeit legitimate denominations. We believe it’s like that with “Christians”.
Jesus said, “why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46)
He also said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
(John 10:27-28)
We have forsaken what many/most think of as “churches”, because 100% of the ones we’ve known are built on man’s tradition, as opposed to the Word of God. We see this as the falling away mentioned in 2 Thess 2:3.
The same spirit of Diotrephes (3 Jn 1:9-10) rules most in Christendom. It’s all about money, power and purpose, but it’s all apart from God’s Word.
Matt 7:20-23
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/b]
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 11:58:09 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1134
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
I agree, but think that in a city of, say, 3 million that a church with 5,000+ believers is a possibility.
Absolutely.
I live in a metro area of 6+ million. And, we have MANY churches that welcome 5,000+ each and every Sunday..... (our church is about 14,000 each "weekend", as we do have one saturday night worship service, and two on Sunday)
Some perspective: In the 1950s/1960s, First Baptist Dallas had 10,000+ attendance (25,000+ membership) at their church....many in Dallas call it "The Original Mega-church".....though, could anyone have accused them of "watering down" the Gospel? Certainly not. Of course, it is not nearly as large today, as the downtown area was "abandoned" for years, as people moved to the suburbs, but it is FINALLY making a "comeback"....
In a city of 6+ Million, what is of most concern to ME is....having COUNTLESS small churches. Churches that are surrounded by growing suburbs and neighborhoods. Filled with countless people who are "lost"..... And, yet, these churches remain their small, same size for years.
Upon visiting these churches, as we did almost 6 years ago when we were seeking a new church home, many do not welcome "visitors"....these very small "Churches" have members who are content with the specific individuals they attend church with each week, and do not want anyone "new" coming in and possibly "messing things up"....or risking the possibility of having to be in church with a person or family that doesn't think like them, doesn't dress like them, doesn't look like them, etc...etc...
In contrast, our church, which started out in 1977 with a few families meeting in a rented city recreation center, continually "reaches out" into the community....spreading "the Good News"....growing the body of Christ, spiritually through discipleship and teaching....with countless ministries aimed at one thing: Reaching our community, and the world, for Christ.
A year and a half ago, our church "planted" a new church 15 miles to the north of the current location. While a church building is being built, for the "North Campus", they meet in the gym at the local high school (which is just down the street from where the church will be)......the VERY FIRST Sunday, they had over 1,000 show up for church....and growing steadily each week and month.
Is it any wonder our church has grown to the size it has? while others are "dead"?
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 5/7/2008 12:11:32 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 12:05:50 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1134
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
People counterfeit legitimate denominations.
Westboro Baptist Church comes to mind...
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 1:11:12 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
Is it any wonder our church has grown to the size it has? while others are "dead"?
Question....
According to Scripture, “how and why” are believers to gather? (Hint: One place to find the answer is in Hebrews ch. 10)
As for mega-churches, it’s been our experience that it’s impossible to have true fellowship in such a setting. One such local church even says this on its “home fellowship” page: “We often don't experience the true fellowship (Koinonia) that God intended for us on a Sunday morning...”
Why go to such a “church” if what’s happening is NOT what “God intended”?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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