|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Spiritual Hellfire? - 5/3/2008 10:52:05 AM
|
|
|
HisPriest
Posts: 40
Joined: 4/11/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
My opinion on this is rather easy. If God is truly omnipresent, then it is impossible to be in a place that is "devoid of God". What do I think the Lake of Fire is? It is a Lake of the burning presence of God. The wicked who are sent there will spend all of eternity immersed in God's infinite zeal against sin and iniquity. Why is it torture? Because God is a consuming fire. In Revelation we see the saints standing before God on a sea of crystal mingled with fire. Because we will also be standing in the presence of God forevermore. The difference is if you are righteous (in which case you will be feeling his fire of Love) or if you are degenerate (in which case you will be feeling the fire of Judgement). So yes, I do believe the Lake of Fire is actually fire, but that fire is the presence of God Himself.
Adam
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
This verse is clear; this is the death that comes to the wicked after their resurrection for a judgment; the first death is the death that comes to all of us good and evil people; but it will be a resurrection for eternal life and a resurrection for eternal damnation (Jn 5: 28,29). So, we can read the word of God that clearly says that the wicked are raised to receive their punishment and to die and eternal death.
Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
In this way God destroys them, both body and soul (Matt. 10:28) This means annihilation. The “second death” this is exactly the opposite of endless life under torture, which distorts the nature of God that is pure love.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Spiritual Hellfire? - 5/6/2008 6:29:55 PM
|
|
|
Rev_22_4
Posts: 6
Joined: 4/26/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
The Bible, actually............. Revelation 14 says: "Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." So yes, the Lake of Fire does contain the promise of continual torture for all of eternity.
So this is the passage that leads people to believe that the wicked will burn in hell for eternity? What is it? Is it “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever”? The Greek word that is translated as “forever” is the word “aion”. The word “aion” is also used in Matthew 24:3 when the disciples ask about the end of the world. It is translated in some translations as “world” and in others “age”. It also has other meanings. It usually represents an unspecified amount of time. I don't know if you are aware of this but, there are debates about how that word should be translated. Some people even make it a point to assure you that it has an end. Aside from that, many times in the Bible, the words “for ever” are used to describe something that has already ended. With man, it usually means as long as he lives.
quote:
1 Samuel 1
22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.
28 Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the LORD. And he worshipped the LORD there.
Esodus 21
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Leviticus 25
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Deuteronomy 15
17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.
quote:
No, Jesus is not going to burn in Hell for all eternity. Why? Because the injustice of killing a perfect man serves as justice for the rest of the earth that will have faith in Him. The fact is that every little sin is an infinite offense against an infinitely holy God. Due to this, infinite punishment is more than warranted... it is demanded. It is God's mercy and ONLY His mercy that allows any of us the chance to repent, just as it is His mercy that the wicked will not be completely annihilated by His holiness.
Do you have any biblical references to support any these statements? Also, if I went to hell, I'd rather be annihilated than to remain alive for all of eternity in agonizing pain. Not annihilating the wicked is completely merciless. There is no mercy in that. How do you see that as mercy?
quote:
Yes, God is just. However, He is also infinitely Holy. Were I to make a guess, 99.9% of human beings on this planet do not realize just how bad even the smallest of sins are. The wages of "sin" is death. Stealing a dime from a millionaire is enough to earn death. If stealing an infintesimal piece of currency is enough to earn death, how much more is Blasphemy of the Holy God worthy of eternal damnation?
Since I don't believe that eternal agonizing pain is a just punishment for any wrong doing including blasphemy, I guess what is and is not just is a matter of opinion. I do have one question for you though. Are you implying that blasphemy is not a sin?
quote:
Yes, God is love. What does the Bible say about love? "(love) does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;" (1st Corinthians 13:6). Because God IS love (1 John 4) we know that all the descriptions of love given in 1st Corinthians 13 are infinitely true of God. God infinitely does not rejoice in the truth. As I have said, every little sin, no matter how "intense" is an infinite offense against an infinitely holy God. Proportionally speaking, telling a "white lie" is no farther below God that being a mass murderer because God is infinitely holier than both. God says of Himself over and over again that He does not wish for the wicked to perish in their wickedness... but that does not mean that they won't. Paul said it in Romans 11, "Consider, therefore, the goodness and the severity of God."
You have given no reason to believe that God is still a loving God even though you believe He plans to allow people to remain in agonizing pain throughout all of eternity. Are you just in total agreement with me on this one?
quote:
This is a philosophical question more than a Biblical one, though the Bible does speak on the topic a little bit. We know that the Antichrist and the False Prophet will live forever in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:10), and we know that the dead will be resurrected before being judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Unless you are willing to make a distinction between being resurrected and being resurrected, we have to assume that the physical state of those being cast into the lake of fire and those being brought into the Kingdom are the same, but their destinations are different because of their spiritual reality. That is why I have no trouble believing that the wicked will experience everlasting punishment for their infinite wickedness and foolishness, while the righteous experience everlasting joy in the presence of God.
In Revelation 20:10, the word “ever” was again translated from the Greek word “aion”. In the light of this, we cannot say “We know that the antichrist and the false prophet will live forever in the lake of fire” while using Revelation 20:10 because it just does not say that they will live forever. That totally contradicts Romans 6:23. The end of 1 Corinthians 15 tells us how the resurrection of the righteous will be. Verse 52 says we will all be changed. Verse 53 notes the change: “this mortal must put on immortality.” So the righteous dead are not only resurrected but, they are also changed. Again we have the righteous(who are mortal) receiving eternal life(immortality). I have given biblical references that say the wicked will die. Where in the Bible does it talk about the wicked receiving eternal life?
quote:
Ezekiel 28
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Spiritual Hellfire? - 5/11/2008 11:08:37 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Yes, God is just. However, He is also infinitely Holy. Were I to make a guess, 99.9% of human beings on this planet do not realize just how bad even the smallest of sins are. The wages of "sin" is death. Stealing a dime from a millionaire is enough to earn death. If stealing an infintesimal piece of currency is enough to earn death, how much more is Blasphemy of the Holy God worthy of eternal damnation? As I have said, every little sin, no matter how "intense" is an infinite offense against an infinitely holy God. Proportionally speaking, telling a "white lie" is no farther below God that being a mass murderer because God is infinitely holier than both.
Well said !!!  ...we don't (and cannot) comprehend how odious and offense our sin is to God. People are caught up in how "holy" they claim they are, and fail to admit that we sin daily and we seen alot. Sins of commission and sins of omission. Do I ALWAYS love God with ALL my heart, mind, soul, strength ? Nope ! God has every right to condemn people eternally. One day we will see this truth more clearly.
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Spiritual Hellfire? - 5/12/2008 5:56:07 AM
|
|
|
SureHope
Posts: 1241
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
|
FurGodWurLivin and Manna,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Yes, God is just. However, He is also infinitely Holy. Were I to make a guess, 99.9% of human beings on this planet do not realize just how bad even the smallest of sins are. The wages of "sin" is death. Stealing a dime from a millionaire is enough to earn death. If stealing an infintesimal piece of currency is enough to earn death, how much more is Blasphemy of the Holy God worthy of eternal damnation? As I have said, every little sin, no matter how "intense" is an infinite offense against an infinitely holy God. Proportionally speaking, telling a "white lie" is no farther below God that being a mass murderer because God is infinitely holier than both.
Well said !!! ...we don't (and cannot) comprehend how odious and offense our sin is to God. People are caught up in how "holy" they claim they are, and fail to admit that we sin daily and we seen alot. Sins of commission and sins of omission. Do I ALWAYS love God with ALL my heart, mind, soul, strength ? Nope ! God has every right to condemn people eternally. One day we will see this truth more clearly.
I couldn't agree with both of you more. The reason that most do not comprehend how bad the smallest sins are in the sight of God is because they do not understand the Sin that motivates all sin - large and small. God created man to display His glory, but man has chosen to disregard God and thus dishonor Him. Man has chosen to value and highly esteem God's creation and creatures over the Creator Himself. Man values and treasures a dime instead of God and thus dishonors God as he steals it. When we throw mud at the good name of God in this way it is no wonder that God exalts the glory of His name by punishing the wicked eternally. God demonstrates His nature of holiness, righteousness and justice in His wrath against willing sinners.
God is not only righteous and just, but is also merciful, gracious, and abounds in lovingkindness. He demonstrates these attributes of Himself by eternally saving a people to Himself. These people do deserve eternal wrath, but He shows mercy. These people do not deserve to enjoy Him forever, but he shows grace.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
